longevity of electronics

[SlagJones]

I see lots of people buying vintage stompboxes and amps for high prices. How long do electronics components last? I know if you get a vintage amp you need to get it looked over by a tech to replace old caps and stuff. How about pedals? If you get that script MXR Distortion+ that's 30 years old, are its inside components still good? How much longer can you expect it to last?

[m-theory]

High priced vintage gear is only meaningful to the collectors who use it as an investment vehicle. It really doesn't make much sense to buy an $800 TS808 to gig with, when there are about a hundred different new circuits based on that design that you can buy new for a fraction of that price. Almost all of them are considerable improvements on the original design, in terms of how the circuit functions.

 

However, if you want to use the gear as an investment vehicle, it MIGHT make SOME sense, although I'd offer that it probably makes more sense to seek out avenues where you can "buy low and sell high," rather than buying high and selling high. Easier said than done, with some of this stuff, though.

 

If you are buying vintage for investment purposes, buy only dead mint, or nearly dead mint gear and never use it. Carefully package it up and store it someplace safe for 20-30 years, so that you can make a nice ROI when you do decide to sell it.

 

One of the main reasons many people buy vintage amps is that they're excellent, robust, handwired amps that will faithfully serve for many, many years, properly cared for, and they also happen to produce the most sought-after tones known.

 

My personal advice to someone who's just shopping for a good amp to gig with, is to seek out the road dogs. Forget mint, because gigging it will devalue it, and why pay top dolalr for something that you're going to intentionally devalue when you can buy an already devalued version for a fraction of the cost?

 

As for longevity of components, carbon comp resistors are notorious for drifting out of tolerance, electrlytic caps are only good for 15-20 years, tagboard can become conductive over time, pots and jacks get dirty/scratchy/corroded, tubes can get gassy or leaky, tube socket pins get loose, PVC-coated wiring can become brittle, solder joints can break loose, and film caps can drift.

 

Nothing lasts forever, but it's foolish to turn away from a great deal on a great amp simply because it's 40 or so years old. Virtually anything can be rebuilt, and this is precisely what needs to be done with any vintage amp that's going to be put into service. You will NOT have a gig-worthy amp until the chassis has been completely gone through and all tubes have been fully tested and verified.

 

I really have no opinion on vintage pedals, because I don't think there's any particular valid reason to use them live. There are far too many options available that are at least as good, if not much better, and certainly much cheaper, in most cases.

 

Now, here's the thing on handwired amps: You can either buy vintage or new, and you can spend rather large sums of money either way. A tweed Bassman could run you $5,000-$10,000. A BF Vibroverb, $5000 or so, a plexi Marshal $10,000 or so w/cabinet.

 

New, boutique or custom scratch-built versions of those amps might run you $2500-$4000.

 

However, SOME vintage amps are nearly identical to earlier models, yet command far lower prices, because they're simply not as collectible. A BF deluxe reverb would probably set you back $2500 or so, but a SF model of the same amp could easily be had for $500 or so, if you're patient in your search. That $10k plexi Marshall can be had for a fraction of that in its later, steel-faced form.

 

One has to just weigh what you're looking for, specifically, do some serious research, and then decide whether you want to delve into collectables, find a great vintage amp and have it rebuilt to spec, or buy a new boutique or custom shop handwired amp. All are viable options that are worthy of consideration.

[SlagJones]

So there is no point in considering getting that script logo MXR or that grey DOD 250 for it's sound since it's insides may no longer up to specs? So people paying hundreds of dollars for vintage tone out of a pedal may only be getting worn out tone?

 

I hear what you are saying about amps tho. I would love to get my hands on a good vintage amp to play with. Maybe a silverface champ?

[m-theory]

So there is no point in considering getting that script logo MXR or that grey DOD 250 for it's sound since it's insides may no longer up to specs?

That's not how I'd put it. I think it's dumb to spend big cash for a vintage pedal to gig with because they're just not as good or, generally speaking, as well built as some of today's pedals. Pretty much everything vintage has been upgraded over the years, often times by numerous builders. Does it make much sense to gig an $800 tube screamer when a $39 Bad Monkey is actually a better design of that circuit? I guess to some it might. Not to me.

 

You have to realize that a lot of the hype surrounding some of these pedals are nothing but that...hype. For instance, how many times have you seen hocus pocus marketing lines about a particular TS clone that contains the "rare, discontinued JRC4558 chip?" It's neither rare, nor was it ever discontinued.

 

And, the differences between script and non script pedals aren't vast and astonishing.

 

If you're only into it for the collector's value, then have at it, but like I said, lock the thing away for 20-30 years, if you truly expect to see a strong ROI from it.

 

 

I would love to get my hands on a good vintage amp to play with. Maybe a silverface champ?

 

Old amps can be really cool to play around on. Not every one will ring a person's bell, but they're generally pretty cool in their own way, nonetheless. Champs are great little amps, and the SF models can be picked up for a couple hundred or less. If you do end up going to vintage world, just make sure that you set aside enough cash to have a decent tech go through it before you start wailing away on it, and also consider a speaker upgrade at the same time. 35-45 year old speakers aren't always known to be all that impressive, because of natural aging issues, such as spyder sag, weakening magnets, and even dry rot.

[SlagJones]

I don't have the time or money to have much interest in the vintage collecting thing. After reading some of the "hype" I was briefly interested in trying to pickup a vintage script MXR or vintage DOD 250 so I could hear first hand the supposed sound difference and how much better vintage is supposed to be. That interest ended when I saw how much those things were going for on online auctions and such. I guess like you said people are buying those pedals as collectibles and not even playing them. I have noticed even the DOD 250 reissues have gone up in price since they were discontinued.

 

A vintage amp that's been refurbed up to specs can provide lots of enjoyment and still hold its value over time. That's the direction I want to go next. Thanks for all the info!

[m-theory]

The obsession over those pedals is stupid, if you asked me. That DOD 250/MXR Dist + circuit contains about $10 worth of parts, so if you included the cost of a box, switch, and jacks, you'd have a grand total of about $25 into building one. So what if it's not original? If all it's for is playing through, all you're concerned about it how it sounds.

 

When you start moving towards picking up a vintage amp or 12, don't ignore the "ugly, red-headed stepsons," under such ubiquitous names as "Valco," "National," "Airline," "Silvertone," "Utah," "Danelectro," "Magnatone," "Gibson," among others. Many were made by Valco and rebranded, to be sold through various department and catalog stores, such as Sears and Mongomery Wards.

 

Because of this, many of them were very similar. You'll find countless SE 6v6 amps, for instance.

[Dave]

One of my customers is a guitar player and we discuss our common interest at times. He mentioned one day that he had an old Fender Deluxe sitting in the closet that his parents gave him when he was a teen. He used it for a few years and bought a Peavey with bells and whistles. I mentioned that his Deluxe might be worth quite a few bucks. A couple of months later, he told me that his friend's Dad collected and traded old tube amps and he asked him if he was interested in his Deluxe. It turned out that they guy didn't have the money to buy it, but offered him a fishing boat, motor, and trailer in a trade! Since my friend is a fisherman, they did the deal. He's ecstatic about getting a new fishing rig for his amp that was taking up closet space!

 

I imagine that there are lots of vintage amps that are collecting dust in closets. Finding them is the trick.

[Dave]

I'm a little more interested in new technology than vintage gear. Yes, I'd like to have a 60's Super Reverb or Vibrosonic to play with, but I'm not willing to part with the cash. One of the best guitar tones I ever heard from a blues band was one that was playing on the street during our Cherry Blossom Festival years ago. This guy was cranking an old Twin to the max outside in a large downtown pavilion and had the creamiest sound I'd ever heard on his solos. I'm sure that his output transformer was sagged to its knees.

[mcrracer]

Many of us who build amps have also come to realize that many of those Vintage amps( and I will not name names in a public forum contact me for details) do not have the best of parts. They got real lucky when they first built many of these "vintage amps" They simply used what parts were cheap and readily available. When I build a modern version of a "vintage amp" I use the best or appropriate part for the circuit. For example they used pretty much all carbon comp resistors through out the amp except for maybe some cement ones in the power supply. Well we know CC are not best used in many places in amp any more because they drift in value and are noisy. There are a few place we can still use a CC for that mysterious "MOJO" Same thing with Caps. Transformers may be a different story...much discussion still going on about them. But there are many companies who have and will make exact replicas of any transformer. So a 2009 built "vintage" amp may indeed be a much better player than any of its' ancient counter parts.