Epiphone FT-165

[Woodberg]

I recently purchased a circa 1974 Epiphone FT-165 12 string and would like to get it back into good playing shape. The reason I bought the guitar is because the guy who taught me how to play guitar back in the late 1970's had one and I always loved playing it. I know that I could get a better built, better sounding 12-string today, but that's not the point. My goal is to get this guitar back to what I remember it playing like back then.

 

The neck on these guitars had a design issue that would allow the neck to bow up and collapse the pocket where the neck attached to the body. On this particular guitar, I've had the neck shimmed to fix this issue. However, the top of the guitar where the fingerboard meets the sound hole is a little warped. Is there a good way to flatten this back out. It doesn't really impact the sound of the instrument, it just looks a little funny.

 

Also, the tuners are really tight and hard to turn. My local guitar shop said that the tuners were really cheap and I should probably just get new tuners. If possible, I'd like to find some of the original tuners. Does anyone know what kind of tuners were used by Epiphone on these guitars. I know the guitar was made in Japan. I know I can get new tuners, but I doubt the screw holes will line up with the old holes, so I would have to drill extra holes in the back of the headstock. I don't want to do this unless I have to.

 

Finally, the guitar has an adjustable bridge. Is there a good way to add a built in pickup, or should I just use on that fits in the sound hole?

[TommyK]

Gotcha covered. Here is how I repaired my 6 wire FT145SB

 

http://forums.epiphone.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1100

 

What kind of tuners did Norlin us? Cheap ones.

 

If they are that tight, you might be able to remove them dis-assemble them, then clean them up. There could be some corrosion making tuning difficult. Don't forget to lube them up.

 

If this doesn't work,

 

Stew-mac has some 'vintage' open gear tuners.

 

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Golden_Age_Restoration_Tuners_for_12-string.html?actn=100101&xst=1&xsr=2500

 

Check the spec sheet for dimensions.

 

If the holes don't line up, you have a decision to make. Plug and re-bore the holes for the new 6-on-a-plate tuners, they really look nice, or go with 1-on-a-plate tuners. The cheapest route is the vintage 6-on-a-plates and they are nice machinery.

 

I wouldn't worry about originality for the sake of 'resale' value. This vintage of Epiphone FT guitars are not that particularly valuable. They are players.

 

I'd love to see the current state of your 12 wire.

 

My FT145SB has a warped top, under the fretboard extension too. It is also cracked in an arc that follows the sound hole decoration from about the 1:00 position to the 11:00 position. I have not attempted to iron this out. I'm afraid I'll make it worse. I take solace in the fact that it doesn't look like the FT140 in my repair tutorial vis: the Mike Tyson look.

 

My fix brought the neck to, what I believe, was the factory position. This left the action a bit high, but playable in the first position. I intend to make a wedge shaped shim that will tilt the neck back a bit, the next time I re-string.

 

Please, please, please let me know how your fix works out.

[TommyK]

Nuts! I just noticed, those 6-on-a-plate tuners are for slotted peg heads.

 

You may have to hope the clean up and lube works or go for the 1-on-a-plate tuners.

 

Be also aware that Stew-mac isn't the only guitar part shop on the 'net, so do some surfing, or check local guitar shops. Someone might have a set moldering in a tool box somewhere.

[Woodberg]

Thanks for the reply. I just dropped off the guitar at a local repair shop to have them fix the neck. As soon as I mentioned the model, the owner knew exactly what the problem was and echo'd a lot of your repair ideas. He is also going to fix the action and also suggested cleaning and lubing the tuners. I should have it back in about 1 week. I'll take some detailed pictures and post them.

 

This guitar is really in great shape, except for the messed up neck. My guess is that the neck moved early on and it just sat in a closet for the last 30 years. Even the label inside is still in perfect condition. I can't wait to get it back and play it for a while. It brings back a lot of good memories of first learning how to play.

[TommyK]

... My guess is that the neck moved early on and it just sat in a closet for the last 30 years. ....

 

As did mine. Mine broke loose before my 3rd guitar lesson, back in.. oh.. '76 or '77, in the store where Santa bought it. I remembered asking my teach if the fretboard (I didn't know what to call it then) was supposed to be pushing down on the top like that. He looked at it and said, "It's okay." idiot.

 

I got frustrated rather quickly being unable to play and untuneable, unpayable guitar and put it aside for years. Then I took a long hard look at the structure of the guitar, of which I was plenty ignorant and made the first repair, just re-gluing as per factory specs and re-stringing with nylon. That worked for years until I decided to go back to steel. A check on Frets.com and an email to Frank Ford there resulted in the fix I came up with. She's been strung up with medium steels for a couple years now and no movement.

[Ship of fools]

Woodberg I told you TommyK would be glad to help you out glad you posted it here also.Ship

[Woodberg]

Well the guitar is ready but I can't pick it up until tomorrow. I'm quietly confident that it is really fixed this time. Jim Fulton at Lone Star Guitar Shop in Houston did the work. I spoke to Jim yesterday and he said said the block was definitely broken and some of the bracing was also coming loose. He said now that it is fixed right, no shims were needed. The interesting thing is that he said the top is no longer warped now that the shims have been removed. He said that the shims were helping the neck stay at the right angle, but it was still putting pressure on the top of the guitar. Now with his fix it is back the way it was supposed to be. I'll post pictures of how it turned out.

[Woodberg]

Well I got the FT-165 back today and it looks and plays great. Except for a couple of minor dings on the top, it looks brand new. The tuning keys now work great. They just needed cleaning and lubing. I've tried to insert pictures to show some of the detail. Let me know what you think. Sorry for the poor quality pics. I took them on my iPhone. If you want to see anything in more detail let me know and I'll take another picture. I am really pleased with how this turned out.

 

[TommyK]

Those are definitely not OEM tuners, but that's okay, they're better.

 

Absolutely gorgeous. Now I have to hate you.

 

 

Yeah, phones don't make very good cameras, but those you took are pretty good.

[Woodberg]

Don't be a hater. Actually, those are the tuners I remember being on the guitar. Of course I'm remembering a guitar that I haven't seen in over 20 years so some of the details may not be right. What makes you think that those aren't the original tuners. Regardless, do you have any idea who made those tuners?

 

The other thing I thought was interesting is that it has an adjustable bridge. From what I've seen, the FT-165 did not have an adjustable bridge. Only the FT-365 and FT-565 had them. A friend of mine has an FT-365 from around 1978 and his doesn't have the nice rosette around the sound hole, his is just a few lines.

[Ship of fools]

Holy crap thats nice, here are some other FT-165's and those are the original tuners.

http://www.guitar-museum.com/search.php?q=epiphone+FT-165&sa=Search&forsale=0

Sweet glad it worked out for you Woodberg.Ship

[TommyK]

I've never known Norlin FTs to come with enclosed tuners, but I've been proven wrong before. Except for the thumb button shape they look a lot like these: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Economy_Tuners/Economy_Covered_Gear_Tuners.html

 

As far as I know Norlin FTs all came with adjustable tuners, but many were abandoned for the sake of 'tone'.

My FT145SB has the adjustable tuner. Probably these were installed on the FTs:

 

A. Previous to this time Gibsons came with adjustable saddles, so this made them more like the higher quality Gibsons. Although Gibson eventually abandoned this feature.

 

B. This allowed action adjustment after assembly, requiring less precision when assembling.

 

The 165 is a bit fancier grade than the 150, so it could have had upgraded enclosed tuners.

[Ship of fools]

Hey Tommy if you look at the link I posted you'll see that all of these have the same covered tuners from that time, I threw out my bible that told me what was what because there are always exceptoins to every rule that we know, heck I have seen where even the manafactures have been caught off guard by some of thier guitars made by certain factories.Ship

[TommyK]

Do you think that 6 stringers had the covered tuners as well? Or was this an upgrade?

 

I did notice that the bottom listing had the same blue label AND the same type font used for the model number and name as my FT145SB "Texan". This could be helpful in dating.... if we ever figure out when they went from a Times Roman type font to the larger, Arial type font.

[Ship of fools]

You know TommyK I only seem to recall the 12ers having the covered tuners as for the timing of these, just when you think you've got it figured out something else comes along to spoil ones theory.Ship

[MickeyNJ]

Hey Woodberg, Congrats on the buy. I picked up a late 70's FT-165 Bard 12 last summer and TommyK helped me figure out the late 70's part and offered a wealth of other information...as did numerous others. This place is excellent for that. I needed to replace the nut as it was fractured at the D string so I had a saddle done as well and had the neck shimmed as TommyK suggested which lowered the action and it's a great guitar to have. BTW I have those same tuners. Lots O'Luck with it...

 

 

 

[Woodberg]

MickeyNJ, nice looking guitar. Yours is in great shape. Did your guitar have an adjustable saddle originally or did you replace that. I actually was surprised that mine was adjustable. I didn't think the Ft-165 was adjustable. Its interesting how the design of the rosette around the sound hole changed. Also, you can tell that your guitar is a later 70's model by the change in the label. When you bought your guitar last summer was the neck in really bad shape. Mine had moved enough to really warp the top of the guitar.

[MickeyNJ]

MickeyNJ, nice looking guitar. Yours is in great shape. Did your guitar have an adjustable saddle originally or did you replace that. I actually was surprised that mine was adjustable. I didn't think the Ft-165 was adjustable. Its interesting how the design of the rosette around the sound hole changed. Also, you can tell that your guitar is a later 70's model by the change in the label. When you bought your guitar last summer was the neck in really bad shape. Mine had moved enough to really warp the top of the guitar.

 

Hey Woodberg, Thanks. It did have an adjustable saddle, the guy I took it to suggested the doublewide. I agree with you on the rosette and I noticed the same for the E on the pick guards. The neck wasn't in that bad of shape however I don’t think I have a true FlatTop anymore. But it plays nice and sounds good enough for me and...well me.

[leblumax]

I have an Epi FT-165 just like the ones pictured (has the "fancier" sound hole trim) I bought new in 1975. The tuners are just like the ones pictured, and it does have the adjustable Bridge.

 

I have had the Neck repaired 4 times. Fourth was the charm. It has been over 7 years and it is rock solid.

 

Turned out the main problem, other than design, was the case it came with when I bought it, did not support the neck correctly so I STUPIDLY padded the headstock to keep it from flopping around. THAT I think caused my problems as when I had the last repair I also bought a case that fits it like a glove and supports the neck correctly.

 

I'll be 60 in Sep and I hope this thing outlives me by decades. I have grand kids that MIGHT get it when I go.

[leblumax]

Is that bridge SCREWED ON??? If so, WHY??