Neil_K Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hello All, New to this forum. I recently acquired a 97 MIK Samick Sheraton. It is excellent and has a complete rebuild of the electronics (SD Seth Lover overwounds, Gibson harness, switchcraft switch/jack, black nut. It is so awesome. But like others of its era, it has a nonstandard bridge that chews thru strings. I have trolled thru these boards and others looking for solutions to replace the 71 mm TOM bridge this thing has. I have seen one reasonable-sounding option to run the posts to max height, then incrementally lower a 73 mm TOM bridge such that it ultimately fits, relying on the play in the system. The furniture builder in me is concerned that this excess outward torque will ultimately split the block with time and seasonal movement. So has anyone found a 71 mm TOM bridge out there, or otherwise, a source of bridge saddles to fit? The graph-tech site is not explicit on whether theirs will fit. I tried one set of those I found locally - no joy. I would appreciate any additional expertise folks on this board might be willing to share... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolling56 Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Not sure i understand......if the strings are breaking just file/sand paper the saddles smooth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Not sure i understand......if the strings are breaking just file/sand paper the saddles smooth... Done already. Thanks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Bill Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Hello All, New to this forum. I recently acquired a 97 MIK Samick Sheraton. But like others of its era, it has a nonstandard bridge that chews thru strings. I have trolled thru these boards and others looking for solutions to replace the 71 mm TOM bridge this thing has. Hi Neil.. when I was searching for (standard sized) t-o-m saddles, I found that buying complete roller bridges was easier than looking for saddle specs. Many sellers are very poor at providing any real specs for parts. Epiphone should provide individual replacement parts, but I wasn't able to locate any, and probably wouldn't have liked the price anyway (considering what they charge for capacitors and other small parts). Looking at your picture, it appears that the saddles are narrower than standard those on the standard 73mm bridges.. so your best option may be to buy some standard saddles which you will likely need to file to the appropriate width. The diecast saddles are subject to developing slots formed in them after a while, particularly if the player frequently bends strings or has an aggressive attack while playing. The softer zinc-based metal will be displaced by the steel string pressing on such a small area. Once the saddle develops a slot, the string weakens where it passes thru, not over the saddle. I just saw these saddles a day ago, and intend to get several sets, since they're reasonably-priced replacements and not the high-priced upgrade-type materials such as synthetic, brass, steel or titanium. http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-REPLACEMENT-ELEMENTS-REPAIR-LES-PAUL-GUITAR-BRIDGE-/190507138735 The same seller also has roller versions of the standard t-o-m saddles. So finally, there are some replacement saddles at sensible prices. I agree that putting the kind of stress on the body structural parts that the improvised/forced "fix" would likely cause, could create serious future problems. A while ago, someone commented on a luthier that recommended plugging the existing holes with wood, then redrilling new holes for posts with 73mm spacing. Altering the body so one can buy cheap replacement bridges may be attractive to some owners. IMO, there are better solutions than plugging and relocating holes in the body. Regards, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thankvs much for this useful info. Looks like a viable option ... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thanks much for this useful info. Looks like a viable option ... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thanks much for this useful info. Looks like a viable option ... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 ... I agree that putting the kind of stress on the body structural parts that the improvised/forced "fix" would likely cause, could create serious future problems. A while ago, someone commented on a luthier that recommended plugging the existing holes with wood, then redrilling new holes for posts with 73mm spacing. Altering the body so one can buy cheap replacement bridges may be attractive to some owners. IMO, there are better solutions than plugging and relocating holes in the body. hi! had that problem as well. the problem with the wood dowel is the fact that it did not work in my case - the remainder of the dowel was crushed by the smaller bushings of a Schaller TOM-bridge. My solution, which completely satisfies me soundwise and optically was to make new brass bushings with a lathe and to drill eccentric 4mm taps to get the standard 74 mm spacing ... yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 That soundslike the ticket...soyou acquired brass bushings and drilled them slightly outward of center. Great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 What is the likelihood that you would manufacture another bushing set to sell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 What is the likelihood that you would manufacture another bushing set to sell? hi neil! well - let me know about the dimensions (diameter, depth, tap) and i will take a look whether i have some brass left ;) yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolling56 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 hi neil! well - let me know about the dimensions (diameter, depth, tap) and i will take a look whether i have some brass left ;) yours wolfi kewls great people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 hi neil! well - let me know about the dimensions (diameter, depth, tap) and i will take a look whether i have some brass left ;) yours wolfi Wolfie, I am going to visit a luthier I know locally. I will share this idea and see if he can do it. If not then I will contact you. Thank you. Are you in Austria or Virginia ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Austria :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 hi! let me know about your luthiers comments - meanwhile, I have found the old studs of my 94 sherry and the old bridge. let me know if you would like to give it a try, and i'll go to the workshop ... yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 hi! let me know about your luthiers comments - meanwhile, I have found the old studs of my 94 sherry and the old bridge. let me know if you would like to give it a try, and i'll go to the workshop ... yours wolfi Hi and thank you. Don't go to the shop just yet. I am visiting him tomorrow. I don't want to put you thru the trouble of milling inserts and sending them to me in the US if he has a good solution. And, I am getting the replacement roller bridge tomorrow so will know the insert threads etc. You are very kind to offer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Hi and thank you. Don't go to the shop just yet. I am visiting him tomorrow. I don't want to put you thru the trouble of milling inserts and sending them to me in the US if he has a good solution. And, I am getting the replacement roller bridge tomorrow so will know the insert threads etc. You are very kind to offer! hi! no big deal. keep in mind - it only works with M4 screws. i do, however, have a piece of 12 mm mild steel here. making the studs takes 10 minutes ... yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 hi neil! just made two of them from mild steel. should work with a Schaller GTM bridge ;) yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 hi neil! just made two of them from mild steel. should work with a Schaller GTM bridge ;) yours wolfi Hi Wolfi, So I met with my luthier. His only options was to plug and redrill. I like your idea better. I purchased a Schaller STM roller bridge. I temporarily made it fit by inserting the insert into the existing inserts on the body. This is not a good long-term solution and I would love to have inserts milled to spec. This all will make sense if you look at the technical drawings here: http://guitar-bridge.com/hp135010/Guitar.htm (see "technical drawing tab). What I would envision is to create a set of inserts for the guitar into which the M5 threaded leveling screw would directly mount. I would forgo the Schaller inserts entirely. So to do this, I think from me you need these exact measurements: 1) Diameter of original hole in the Epiphone (unless you know this from your own) 2) The precise offset from center that the new insert needs in order to become a 74mm bridge span instead of 71. This is basically a given. The M5 holes must be offset by just over 1.5mm, and when I mount them, I can pivot as necessary to achieve a precise fit, and adjust accordingly with the intonation settings. If you are willing to give it a go, I would be happy to pay for the mailing and compensate you your time. Will soft steel rust? I could also approach a machinist locally with your excellent idea. Let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 hi neil! just made two of them from mild steel. should work with a Schaller GTM bridge ;) yours wolfi Hi Wolfi, So I met with my luthier. His only options was to plug and redrill. I like your idea better. I purchased a Schaller STM roller bridge. I temporarily made it fit by inserting the insert into the existing inserts on the body. This is not a good long-term solution and I would love to have inserts milled to spec. This all will make sense if you look at the technical drawings here: http://guitar-bridge.com/hp135010/Guitar.htm (see "technical drawing tab). What I would envision is to create a set of inserts for the guitar into which the M5 threaded leveling screw would directly mount. I would forgo the Schaller inserts entirely. So to do this, I think from me you need these exact measurements: 1) Diameter of original hole in the Epiphone (unless you know this from your own) 2) The precise offset from center that the new insert needs in order to become a 74mm bridge span instead of 71. This is basically a given. The M5 holes must be offset by just over 1.5mm, and when I mount them, I can pivot as necessary to achieve a precise fit, and adjust accordingly with the intonation settings. If you are willing to give it a go, I would be happy to pay for the mailing and compensate you your time. Will soft steel rust? I could also approach a machinist locally with your excellent idea. Let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 hi neil! just made two of them from mild steel. should work with a Schaller GTM bridge ;) yours wolfi Hi Wolfi, So I met with my luthier. His only options was to plug and redrill. I like your idea better. I purchased a Schaller STM roller bridge. I temporarily made it fit by inserting the insert into the existing inserts on the body. This is not a good long-term solution and I would love to have inserts milled to spec. This all will make sense if you look at the technical drawings here: http://guitar-bridge.com/hp135010/Guitar.htm (see "technical drawing tab). What I would envision is to create a set of inserts for the guitar into which the M5 threaded leveling screw would directly mount. I would forgo the Schaller inserts entirely. So to do this, I think from me you need these exact measurements: 1) Diameter of original hole in the Epiphone (unless you know this from your own) 2) The precise offset from center that the new insert needs in order to become a 74mm bridge span instead of 71. This is basically a given. The M5 holes must be offset by just over 1.5mm, and when I mount them, I can pivot as necessary to achieve a precise fit, and adjust accordingly with the intonation settings. If you are willing to give it a go, I would be happy to pay for the mailing and compensate you your time. Will soft steel rust? I could also approach a machinist locally with your excellent idea. Let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 hi! "What I would envision is to create a set of inserts for the guitar into which the M5 threaded leveling screw would directly mount. I would forgo the Schaller inserts entirely. So to do this, I think from me you need these exact measurements:" schaller uses M4, not M5. "1) Diameter of original hole in the Epiphone (unless you know this from your own)" this is exactly 12 mm, at least in my case. i cannot apply the "texture" on the outside of the insert since i do not have the appropriate tool for the lathe. you may have to secure them with a drop of bone glue ... the more important question is the depth of those holes since my little piece of steel is exactly 12 mm in diameter and therefore, there is no space for a collar ... the inserts would be a little bit hidden, like in a SG standard (well, at least in MY SG). "2) The precise offset from center that the new insert needs in order to become a 74mm bridge span instead of 71. This is basically a given. The M5 holes must be offset by just over 1.5mm, and when I mount them, I can pivot as necessary to achieve a precise fit, and adjust accordingly with the intonation settings." this is not a problem since slight variations in the spacing can be achieved by slightly rotating the studs. the TOM-bridge should be able to compensate for intonation. "If you are willing to give it a go, I would be happy to pay for the mailing and compensate you your time. " well - if you encounter a thirsty Austrian medical physicist somewhere in your area (BTW-where are you located) ... buy him a beer (or two) ... "Will soft steel rust?" yes, unless you chrome it (good) or cover it with a nice layer of spray paint (works as well). i can also try to find some brass, which only tarnishes and can be protected by clear spray paint (it is called zapon-lacquer here) ... material cost is in the range of 20 cents :) "I could also approach a machinist locally with your excellent idea. Let me know what you think." as you prefer - it is really no hassle to make these things, and i have a workshop at the department. however, your machinist has to have metric tap drills for the schaller bridge. yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Sir you are very kind. I am located in Vermont, in the USA. A medical physicist...wow! I am a water quality scientist...so we both do science, but your work sounds cooler. The only reason I said M5 on the threads is because that is the specification shown on the Schaller website I pointed you to. Take a look. I like brass but steel will work. Regarding the length, I can easily create a wood plug to fill in the gap if the insert is too short and threatens to sink under the sting tension. That would make sense anyway. The only risk there is if the string tension were sufficient to push the inserts thru the back of the guitar, but I would be amazed of the inserts were that deeply drilled. I will happily buy an Austrian Medical Physist several beers. But honestly, I could send you something via paypal for your effort. I will send you a message with my mailing address. You are very kind. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birki Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 hi! "A medical physicist...wow! I am a water quality scientist...so we both do science, but your work sounds cooler." well - it is only half as exciting as it may sound. but maybe you will have a water science meeting over here, so you can look for thirsty physicists at one time in vienna :D "The only reason I said M5 on the threads is because that is the specification shown on the Schaller website I pointed you to. Take a look. I like brass but steel will work. " you are right - strange. i just measured my GTM - it appears to be M4 ... funny. however, no big deal ... i can drill a M5 tap as well. "Regarding the length, I can easily create a wood plug to fill in the gap if the insert is too short and threatens to sink under the sting tension." true, but making an insert of appropriate length takes a second more on the lathe .... "That would make sense anyway." well - why if it is not necessary ? "The only risk there is if the string tension were sufficient to push the inserts thru the back of the guitar, but I would be amazed of the inserts were that deeply drilled. come on - they are sitting in the sustain block. this cannot happen by any means ... "I will happily buy an Austrian Medical Physist several beers. But honestly, I could send you something via paypal for your effort." you cannot afford my hourly wage ;) "I will send you a message with my mailing address. You are very kind." glad to help. BUT - lets settle two things: - steel or brass? do you know someone to chrome the steel inserts? would a spray paint cover work for you as well? - collars or no collars? yours wolfi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hello all, So this is a reply to anyone interested in this topic. The solution proposed by Wolfi is, without question, perfect. I installed a set of inserts, custom manufactured by Wolfi, to fit the existing drill pattern on this instrument. It took 15 minutes. With these inserts, I was able to fit a brand new bridge with a modern standard spacing, with absolutely zero effort. I used a Shaller roller bridge, but any TOM or Nashville would work. The offset holes are brilliant. So I thank him for his assitance on this matter, and encourage him to set up a little side business selling these on eBay, as I know there are other people out there with similar problems, who would gladly pay the money. And the tone is much improved for having a solid bridge-->body connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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