Al Watsky Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hey folks, I've lately bought a late model HoRo III with the finger tailpiece. Finally picked one up because the body size works for me and the balsa center block will get me into rock territory. The fact that it fits in my GB10 flight case is also a big plus cause' I gotta play it to get paid. Calton "finally" delivered ! Any how. I know somebody on this list must have done a stop tail piece mod on one of these. The models from the 80's had a maple center block so I'm told, but all the later ones have the balsa block. BTW I have examined dozens of these later guitars so I'm not new to the model. I know that the block is soft enough to allow side penetration through the f hole. Thats pretty soft kids. My question is this. Does anyone have some long term durability findings on installing the stop tail on one of these balsa block guitars ? I've done stop installations many times on maple block semi's but never a balsa block. I'm concerned that fiber compression might lead to failure. Any you folks have some hands on experience with this mod ? Long term prognosis ? Thanks ! AW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 No personal experience Just a feeling it would mess up a perfect classic guitar And that balsa has IMO about zero strength to threaded invasion :blink: V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 No personal experience Just a feeling it would mess up a perfect classic guitar And that balsa has IMO about zero strength to threaded invasion :blink: V Yes, but these all had stop tails at first so its not so wild an Idea. Pretty sure this has been done but I'm wondering about long term stability. That finger tailpiece is gaudy and annoying in several ways IMO. This is a utility guitar for me. Perhaps a GB10 tailpiece ? , those are very stable. Much more so than the "finger" part. Seems that Don Mock and Howard did some measuring on a GB 10 to come up with the body dimensions of the HoRo. Sort of poetic that a Gibson product was a reflection of a Japanese model for a change. Roberts was such a tinkerer I think he would approve. Just kickin' ideas around. I've had that finger tailpiece on other guitars, not my first choice. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm in the process of tracking down a screw for my HRIII's fingers tailpiece, and I'm happy with the stability (considerably greater than that of the traditional trapeze on my Epiphone Casino), so I'm not about to offer first-hand experience on this matter. But I understand the appeal of the stopbar for rock-solid anchoring and also maybe for resting your picking hand (I was dreaming of ES 335s when I got my Howard), so I'm on for a bit of hypothesizing if it will help. And what I think is that you may need to cast your net a bit wider for really solid advice on this one. There are a couple of us here who own or have owned a Howard III, but it's taken till the last week for me to encounter Jelly Wheat and have anything like a real chat about the model. I don't get the impression that he did the mod either. You may wait a long time before you find anybody here who has. But if my memory serves me well, the Chet Atkins Tennessean had a balsa/chromyte centre block too, and came as standard with a stop-bar. Most of the Chet lovers here seem to have a Country Gent and a Bigsby, but there may just be some Tennesseans out there. If I am right, and they do have a balsa block, then they would be a good yardstick as to longevity of the stopbar/chromyte combination. Can't remember when they discontinued the model, but it must be about 10 years ago. Even the last Tennesseans ought to be good indicators of what happens over time. Don't see loads about, but it never was a best-selling Gibson, was it? Don't hear about them falling apart either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 This is wise advice, Mojo. I think the stop bar would work because of balsa's great tensile strength, but I would ask somebody at Gibson for direct input before I went ahead. Personally, I like Bigsbys and trapeze tailpieces . I think a GB10 would be classy on the HoRo. I never was a fan of the fingers. It's too trouble prone for a hard gigging musician, IMO. Regards to all J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks for the input guys. I didn't know the Chet had a balsa block. I'll look into that. Quiz a couple of repair guys. For me the reason to get a stop on there is for the string tension difference , that and string angle. It makes a difference. The finger tail piece is OK. I had one on a guitar that I worked with alot. I found it best to tighten the screws so they wouldn't fall out and those 2 acorn nuts tend to get loose as well. Different tailpieces actually sound different. I've been through 3 different TP's on archtops of this scale length and every one gave the guitar a slightly different sound. Weight seems to be a factor and string length behind the bridge is another. On these hybrid electrics stability is a big deal so the archtop type tail piece seems an odd choice all around. Of all the TP's I have seen the TP on the GB's are the most stable. It is unfortunately also the heaviest. Thanks for the HoRo chat. I always liked em' . Perfect size for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Howdy I sent a message to Gibson customer service asking about the possibility of adding a stopbar tailpiece on a HoRo III. Their reply was cautious. They stated that "they did not typically recommend installing a stopbar on this model, but that , "a qualified luthier or repair service may be able to assist in installing the stopbar safely. I wrote back for further clarification , but their thinking seems clear to a degree. It would seem that they anticipate potential difficulties in the installation. When I've installed stopbars on other Gibson products they have always been fitted with a hardwood center block. I think the chromite block could compress unless a fostner bit in a high speed floor press was used. Just a little observation about the Chromite block. It seems that it is set in between 2 other wood pieces that look to be made of Mahogany , so the thickness of the plywood top and the first layer of hardwood may be almost 1/2 inch. Beyond that there be chromite. Cheers, AW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I have a 1990 Gibson Tennessean, which was the first year of this model. It's a little different, in that the initial run had no armrest, and a clear pickguard & TRC, which were then painted silver on the back. Fwiw, the stoptail has remained completely stable. Imho, if you like the tone of your HR, I would experiment with other tailpieces before making the more radical change to a stoptail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 I have a 1990 Gibson Tennessean, which was the first year of this model. It's a little different, in that the initial run had no armrest, and a clear pickguard & TRC, which were then painted silver on the back. Fwiw, the stoptail has remained completely stable. Imho, if you like the tone of your HR, I would experiment with other tailpieces before making the more radical change to a stoptail. Yes , bobouz thanks. I'm not diving into this just collecting data. I love the HoRo model. Likely I'll pick one of the early ones up eventually. They had a stock stop tail, as you know. Like the weight and balance of the III . The one I own is 7lb 6oz which is nice. Being up here in the NYC metro area I've only run into a couple of the Tennessean's. Even at the Gibson show room in NYC they were something of a rarity. The HoRo's were common second guitars for R&B and Jazz guys or rockers looking for a rhythm guitar. Remember thinking at the time that the Tennessean's and HoRo's were pretty fine guitars. Gibson is Gibson after all. They are making guitars all day every day and do a good job of it. Interesting that I've come to the HoRo as an alternative to My GB10 which I fitted with a center block and humbuckers decades ago. Same body shape GB10 = HoRo. Same scale. Works for me. Fits in the same flight case. Which is a major plus. Winning ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Well that's quite a lot of ply before you hit the balsa, I agree. I need to look at mine more closely to see if it is so. I'm wondering whether the fact that the balsa is floating and not fixed at the back makes for some of the caution at Gibson. Presumably the Tennessean's block is fixed front and back. Perhaps that makes for a more stable platform for a stop-tail? As you pointed out back in your OP, the HoRo I series had maple blocks as well as the stop-tail. I believe that the II series was already chromyte and fingers. So they never installed stop-tails without a maple block if I understand aright. The next question for me would be whether the maple blocks were floating or fixed on both sides. It may be that floating maple is stable enough while floating balsa is not, or it may be that either wood is stable enough if it is supported at the bottom. Several parameters to deal with here. It might be easiest to look for a HoRo I, but the maple block simply must weigh more than the balsa. I've read that they were really heavy guitars. The balance and lightness of your current squeeze may well have to be sacrificed for the stopper if you take that route... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Well that's quite a lot of ply before you hit the balsa, I agree. I need to look at mine more closely to see if it is so. I'm wondering whether the fact that the balsa is floating and not fixed at the back makes for some of the caution at Gibson. Presumably the Tennessean's block is fixed front and back. Perhaps that makes for a more stable platform for a stop-tail? As you pointed out back in your OP, the HoRo I series had maple blocks as well as the stop-tail. I believe that the II series was already chromyte and fingers. So they never installed stop-tails without a maple block if I understand aright. The next question for me would be whether the maple blocks were floating or fixed on both sides. It may be that floating maple is stable enough while floating balsa is not, or it may be that either wood is stable enough if it is supported at the bottom. Several parameters to deal with here. It might be easiest to look for a HoRo I, but the maple block simply must weigh more than the balsa. I've read that they were really heavy guitars. The balance and lightness of your current squeeze may well have to be sacrificed for the stopper if you take that route... Moj', Its an interesting guitar. I'll call the repair center and see if they have any guidelines. The HoRo with the maple block was said to be a boat anchor. Doubtless why they went with the chromite. Gibson has their "way" and its a good method. I'm not second guessing, just adapting it for my needs. I've been using my HR III and liking it a lot. The finger TP needs to be screwed down till the fingers are as close to the top as is possible. Which makes changing strings a pain in the butt. The longer fingers actually vibrate to some low subsonic that totally stops all other string vibration unless you mute. I literally need to tighten the fingers till they touch the top. Thats going to become tedious in a short time and will eventually damage the top. My guitars take a beating anyway. I'm an aggressive Jazz,Blues,Funk guy. After I get a hold of several of these I'll modify one see what happens. I can do anything I get in my head when it comes to a guitar. Its just a matter of taking the time. I prefer playing to tinkering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 I left a message for Gibson Repair/Restoration. Their considered opinion was that it was best not to attempt to install the stop on the HoRo III. They were not interested in considering taking on the "project" as a modification either. I'll respect that and perhaps if anything consider a different tailpiece. Cheers to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Fair comment I think from Gibson... Just a wild thought... Have you considered the quite delightful ES 137 ?.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I left a message for Gibson Repair/Restoration. Their considered opinion was that it was best not to attempt to install the stop on the HoRo III. They were not interested in considering taking on the "project" as a modification either. I'll respect that and perhaps if anything consider a different tailpiece. Cheers to all. Interesting, and presumably they have good reason. Did they say why? It would be very helpful to hear their reasoning. Also interested by your longer fingers' vibrating. My fingers are very stable (infinitely better than the dreadful trapeze on my 1990s Casino). But I experienced some loss of sustain on the treble strings yesterday when I tried out my new amp, so now you've got me wondering. It's not a sustaining guitar of course, but it has more in it than a full-on hollow body, and I've never really lacked anything I wanted in that department through my old Fender Pro Reverb, even though said amp is in need of some fixes. Probably just a my playing, getting used to the HoRo after several months of playing my Southern Jumbo, and also getting used to the new amp. But I will keep an eye on the fingers, just in case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Fair comment I think from Gibson... Just a wild thought... Have you considered the quite delightful ES 137 ?.... V The 137 is a fine guitar no doubt , but its a 16" and I don't play a 16". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Interesting, and presumably they have good reason. Did they say why? It would be very helpful to hear their reasoning. Also interested by your longer fingers' vibrating. My fingers are very stable (infinitely better than the dreadful trapeze on my 1990s Casino). But I experienced some loss of sustain on the treble strings yesterday when I tried out my new amp, so now you've got me wondering. It's not a sustaining guitar of course, but it has more in it than a full-on hollow body, and I've never really lacked anything I wanted in that department through my old Fender Pro Reverb, even though said amp is in need of some fixes. Probably just a my playing, getting used to the HoRo after several months of playing my Southern Jumbo, and also getting used to the new amp. But I will keep an eye on the fingers, just in case... Their reasoning was simple. They could not be certain that in the long term the threaded anchors for the stop would remain firmly installed. Remember that Gibson doesn't make end runs in process, those studs are a press fit. The chromite would compress and IMO at the least require an adhesive and that is still in contact with the chromite which will/could eventually compress. So using their standard factory method a stop is not an option on a model of this type. They make history not "projects". Thats not to say I couldn't install one using other methods, just that their "way" the Gibson "way" does not include that option for this model. I respect the folks at Gibson. The high E finger does resonate at a sub frequency that can be annoying. It can dissipate other frequencies instantly and sends a shudder through the body of the guitar. Its mildly disturbing. If you tighten the arm screws down and get the fingers as close to the top as possible it abates.I play a lot of guitar and came up using guitars with this "archtop" type of tailpiece. This is not uncommon. Its one of the things that a totally rigid tailpiece avoids. This thing is not rigid it the absolute sense. I'll suggest placing some material under the fingers to prevent top damage and tighten the screws till the tips contact the top. In fact I already have, it helps a lot. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Just a little observation about the Chromite block. It seems that it is set in between 2 other wood pieces that look to be made of Mahogany. IMPORTANT! I pulled out the Tennessean tonight, and indeed there is a separately inserted piece of wood that appears to be mahogany directly under the stop tailpiece. It is a smaller block of wood and does not totally sandwich the top of the primary balsa/chromyte centerblock, but instead resides right under the stoptail. There is also a separate piece of similar looking wood running the length of the body directly under the chromyte centerblock. I hadn't really looked closely at it before, and assumed it was a one piece chromyte centerblock. Therefore, the implication of my earlier post is incorrect, and the stoptail is definitely NOT screwed into chromyte! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 IMPORTANT! I pulled out the Tennessean tonight, and indeed there is a separately inserted piece of wood that appears to be mahogany directly under the stop tailpiece. It is a smaller block of wood and does not totally sandwich the top of the primary balsa/chromyte centerblock, but instead resides right under the stoptail. There is also a separate piece of similar looking wood running the length of the body directly under the chromyte centerblock. I hadn't really looked closely at it before, and assumed it was a one piece chromyte centerblock. Therefore, the implication of my earlier post is incorrect, and the stoptail is definitely NOT screwed into chromyte! The fellow I spoke to a the Gibson repair shop. Indicated that all the instruments that have a stop have a hardwood block of some sort. He was not totally "up" on the HoRo spec. But after he came back after he put me on hold to ask a senior advisor (I suppose) , he cautioned against installing a stop tail on the HoRo. Also note the anchors for the threaded posts are not in any way "screwed" in to anything. Thats a press fit. No screw thread, no glue, press fit only. The anchor is over an inch deep. Quite a bit deeper than the thickness of the ply top and the hardwood plate the chromite is glued to in the case of a HoRo. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Also note the anchors for the threaded posts are not in any way "screwed" in to anything. Thats a press fit. No screw thread, no glue, press fit only. Ah yes, of course. Must have had visions of an ABR-l threaded post dancing around in my head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trovador Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Someone over The Gear Page did it. Read the last post on how he did it. There are some pictures of it as well. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=984451&highlight=gibson+howard+roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Someone over The Gear Page did it. Read the last post on how he did it. There are some pictures of it as well. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=984451&highlight=gibson+howard+roberts I had seen this Gear Page listing. The last post mentioning the epoxy reinforcement is interesting. I consider it to be a temporary solution to a larger problem. The main difficulty with the finger tailpiece is that the later ones have very wide tolerances and aren't the most stable tailpiece. I've continued to torture my 97' HoRo . Examining the center block and the lining the block is glued to. By removing the pickups measurement tells me the top and top liner is 1/2 inch thick. After that you have the chromite , which is so soft you can drive through it with out a drill bit. It has the consistency of closed cell styrofoam. So long term prognosis for the stop tail piece mod is for marginal outcome as the anchors for the stop are at least an inch deep. Over time with any impact or even constant stress the chromite will compress which will allow the anchor and stop to tilt and cause potential difficulties. I'm not saying that an instrument that was pampered wouldn't hold up, but the likely hood of complications to an instrument that was being shipped and handled daily and used constantly might be different. Any sudden impact that would compress the chromite would eventually lead to "system failure". IMO, owners would be better off finding a more stable archtop tailpiece. The most stable tailpiece I know of is the one used by Ibanez on their GB series. I've been experimenting with the GB10 for years ( bought one new in 77'). I actually had a Gibson Finger Tailpiece on a GB10 for a while. The finger tailpiece pales in comparison to the GB tailpiece. The Ibanez part while somewhat less elegant is far more rigid when under tension. The GB suffered when fitted with the finger tail. Although it looked more interesting its functionality was compromised . A HoRo with a rigid tailpiece will be much improved. I personally would prefer a standard stop tail for reasons of string tension but can't rationalize installing the stop due to what I perceive as high potential for long term failure. I'm not fond of the the look of the HoRo with the GB tail actually , but I do believe it would function far better than the Gibson part. The down side it that its heavier. I will continue to work on HoRo mods cause' I like the lower bout size. What I know now is that the HoRo has a lining of bass wood or linden or poplar. The ply top and liner bring top thickness to around 1/2 inch. Then you have your chromite. If a person was sufficiently motivated it would be possible to remove the chromite behind the bridge pickup and fit a section of Mahogany or Maple (perhaps in 2 sections) aprox. 3.5 x 3.5 , then install the stop. I've done things like that to other shallow hollow body guitars. It works. But its a PIA. Ship in a bottle stuff. Tedium . BTW the back of the HoRo is lined as well. The lining provides a flat surface for the chromite to be glued to. The end blocks of the III are mahogany. You can see chromite compression in the area of the neck block and the top will actually flex if pressed in that area, leading me to doubt the long term durability of the chromite in the upper bout area. Might have problems in 75 years or so. Put on your worry hat ! Not. Still interesting to me. The most common repair on a HoRo in my shop has been the neck separating from the body at the body join. Actually splitting along the grain leaving the heel tenon in the body. Fun ! An easy glue and clamp. So rather than a head stock repair you get to glue the neck back on to the body. The maple protects against the headstock crack but because of grain orientation will allow the neck heel to crack right out of the tenon. You need to drop it on its face from 3 or 4 feet though. So be careful out there ! The HoRo is a strange bird. I think that folks who like a 24 3/4 scale and a slightly thicker body might be better served by using a Gibson 137. Less hassle as it already has a stop tail. Likely to be heavier than the chromite HoRo though. As a final note Gibson through its repair shop advised against installing a stop on the HoRo III. I believe it was because they couldn't be assured of long term success because of the chromite. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trovador Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I hear you about your hesitation. I don't understand why they switched tailpieces in the first place... I have a 1980 HR fusion with the maple center block with the TP6tailpiece. I absolutely love the shape of the guitar, and of course, how it plays. I suppose the only option is to try to find a pre-1990 version... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 I hear you about your hesitation. I don't understand why they switched tailpieces in the first place... I have a 1980 HR fusion with the maple center block with the TP6tailpiece. I absolutely love the shape of the guitar, and of course, how it plays. I suppose the only option is to try to find a pre-1990 version... :unsure: I won't bother modding the III. I combined 2 finger tails and used the longer segments to even out the tension and thats working fine, but not a perfect solution for folks that don't have an extra finger tail hanging around. The model is great, I like the package a lot. The III's also benefit from gluing the bridge anchor's , that makes a very nice change in the tuning stability. A dramatic improvement. Also improves the tone. Tightens the response up a lot. What does yours weigh ? Over 8 lb ? The 80's HoRo's seem to be in the 8.5-9 lb range. (I've been looking for a light one). The III's seem to run to the mid 7's. Mine is 7.6 which is a nice weight for me. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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