Recommendations on upgrading pickups?

[Bluemans335]

the whole package is the "proof in the pudding". One of the problems with these "tone" arguments is that many of the judgements are of a lone guitar played at home.

 

At home or on stage. Are you saying that the tone of mid-price imports as they come from the factory cannot be improved upon? Most of them have some pretty mediocre PU's, by any standards. Until Epi started their PU improvement program a couple years ago, if you wanted to get the best tones from your guitar, upgrading PU's was pretty much mandatory. I can't see anyone arguing that their '57's could compete with any quality PAF. They weren't intended to. They do not have the definition, depth, and clarity of a quality humbucker. That's why Epi revamped their PU line. Good guitars overall, but the whole industry knew that Epi's Achilles heel was their cheap, generic humbuckers. No one's happier than me to see them step up their game and become more competitive. Now you can buy a new Epi that really sounds great, and is on a par with lower-end Gibson models. And that's where Epi should be. There shouldn't be a gap between the companies.

 

As good as Probuckers and Alnico Classic Pros are, like any other PU, they're going to sound different from one guitar to the next, depending on the individual pieces of wood. Not everybody's going to want the stock sound (which is a moving target because of variations in wood). Some players want hotter PU's, some want more vintage-sounding ones. More treble, less treble, more mids, less mids, tighter low end, etc. Some love them unpotted with unbalanced coils, others don't. Some guys want the qualities and output of ceramic magnets, others want a sound with alnico color and character; some think A5's are too bright and bassy, some think A2's are too middy and loose, etc. That's why over the last 35 years a huge worldwide industry has developed in aftermarket PU's. This isn't the result of marketing hype or people imagining they're hearing things. They're filling a demand. They don't want one-size-fits-all products. That's why we have satellite TV in our homes and satellite radio in our cars... we want choices.

 

Even so, there's still many guitars being sold today because the owner isn't thrilled with their sound (tastes change, they're playing different music, they get a new amp, etc), often taking a loss on the sale. Many times a changing PU's, or even pots and magnets, may have made those guitars produce the desired tones. Why not try that before taking a several hundred dollar hit by selling the guitar? We don't live in a world where's there's only two options: 1) sell it and take the loss, or 2) 'learn to live with it.'

 

There's nothing wrong with buying guitars that already sound exactly like you want them to. Pick the best one in the store. But that means you're passing over a lot of other guitars, and someone has to buy them. I don't see guitars as finished works of art as they come from the factory. I see them as the manufacturer saying: "Here's one of the ways it can sound. You're free to change that."

[Jazzchief1]

Replacing pickups can drive you crazy. So many things can effect your tone including pots, capacitors, wiring , strings, amps, having a cold, weather, bad day etc... At least you have narrowed things down quite a bit. This is only my recomendation ,but I would give the Dimarzio Eric Johnsons (EJ) a try. I think they would fit the bill. They are very clean with good seperation. Change out the capacitors when you trade out the pickups.

[milod]

There are a thousand variables in a guitar's sound.

 

As you might guess, I just don't see any reason for the OP to get into this pup changing thing.

 

Pups, unless something's malfunctioning, are far less important than the amp and the pup settings.

 

Those who enjoy messin' with pups and wiring can do so. I did ages ago.

 

But I never forget that even a great jazz guitar is a creature of at least two parts, the guitar itself and the amp. Both of those have an incredible variety of settings.

 

Guitars also have an incredible variety of settings not only with the pots, but also how the strings and pups are set up. That's true whether a jazzer's L5 or a beginner's LP Junior. Now add matching even a jazzer to an amp and amp settings... then for a rocker or today's country picker the choices in stomp boxes... and even the solo AE singer-songwriter has more options than Bayer has aspirins when it comes just to basics of guitar and some sort mike and amplification system - not to mention potentials of various sorts of electronic enhancement.

 

And everybody's an expert telling the OP what he should do with a fine low-mid priced hollowbody guitar designed to be Gretsch-like, pups included.

 

That's all why my concern is that folks have this tendency at early years in their electric pickin' career to get off on 5-percent peripherals rather than the performance that's 95 percent of what they're hoping to do.

 

I figure I could take any of my electrics, from an ancient mid 1950s single pup Harmony archtop to a '70s Guild S100c (SG clone) or even a new cheapie Dot or Epi PR5e into almost any gig whether that'd be the theoretical best choice or not. It's not that hard to play Misty as a fingerstyle jazz solo or Johnny B Goode on an AE or a traditional cowboy piece on a 175 - if the overall sound reinforcement is set up for it. And I'll wager ain't nobody gonna toss rotten veggies, either, 'cuz the tone ain't "right."

 

And I figure I ain't even close to being heaven's gift to music, either. Just a grouchy old picker who's played in public a little and made and likely will continue to make some clinkers.

 

m

[mcgruff]

Pickups (and amp) are hugely important to the sound of a guitar. You're right about a semi-hollow not being a good choice for high-gain metal but there's a lot of stuff going on here which can't be very helfpul to the OP.

[milod]

McGruff...

 

My thought exactly... I just got windier.

 

m

[Gunner]

Pickups (and amp) are hugely important to the sound of a guitar. You're right about a semi-hollow not being a good choice for high-gain metal but there's a lot of stuff going on here which can't be very helfpul to the OP.

I think the OP gave up a long time ago.

 

One thing I would add is that the term "huge" (or similar terms) depend on a person's perspective. Someone who has spent a lot of time listening to, analyzing, and studying tone might describe the tone change from a pickup swap as "huge", whereas someone not so concerned may hear the difference but describe it as minimal. As a non-music analogy, my wife would describe the difference in two adjacent shades of paint on a color chip as huge, whereas I would not. The average non-guitar player would probably not describe the difference between a Strat and Les Paul as huge, whereas most of us would.

[Bluemans335]

As you might guess, I just don't see any reason for the OP to get into this pup changing thing.

 

Pups, unless something's malfunctioning, are far less important than the amp and the pup settings.

 

 

That's your approach, you're comfortable with it, but it's not for everybody. Around the time you stopped modding guitars, aftermarket PU's took off. If you haven't kept up with developments, you've missed a lot. The world of PU's has changed drastically since 1975.

 

There is nothing sacred about stock PU's. The manufacturer had to pick something, and probably didn't put a lot of thought into it. I don't see the insistence on keeping them in a guitar if it doesn't have the tones you want. If the PU's are bright, and the wood is inherently bright, you may not like how they interact together. Same goes for warm stock PU's in warm woods. You can dial in one PU, as players often do, and then have to stick with it through an entire gig, because the amp EQ is so far off for the other PU: Dial in the bridge, and the neck's muffled and muddy. Dial in the neck and the bridge is piercing and shrill. I've seen it happen to many players; two or three PU's and only one is usable. One of the most extreme examples is Gibson's 498T/490R pair, that almost defies anyone to get an amp EQ setting that works for both PU's, since their EQ's are polar opposites. Why struggle with all of this if a simple PU change will fix it?

 

If you buy used PU's online, you can try them and if they don't do what you want, you can sell them for what you paid for them. Where's the risk? Where's the downside? From what's been said, some of you don't know what PU's are available today or what they sound like. And yet the same people are adamant that the stock PU's, whatever they are, are going to be the best. If you haven't tried the aftermarket PU's of the last 10, or even 20 years, how can you tell someone else not to, and say 'they won't change anything'. Why does it bother anyone when someone else changes PU's in their guitar? It doesn't bother me when people keep theirs stock. The world keeps changing. I wouldn't own a 7 or 8 strings guitar with a Floyd Rose, and a pointy body like a porcupine, but if someone else is into that, more power to them. Whatever makes them happy. Some one them are great players. Music's a personal thing, and so are the instruments used to create it. People do things differently than I do, and I can respect their decisions. What it comes down to is: People that think differently than I do, or than you do, aren't necessarily wrong.

[Bluemans335]

Pickups... are hugely important to the sound of a guitar.

 

Thank you.

[milod]

Sorry...

 

What I'd talk about to you, for what you do as an experienced picker is one thing. That's true also to even a guy who's been at it a very serious year.

 

What I'd suggest to a guy with a nice new Swingster that he doesn't know what to do with is apparently opposite from what you'd tell him.

 

It's not my ignorance of "new stuff," but my experience of "new players" that brings my response.

 

I figure a relative new guy should ought to play a nice quality guitar a bit before he decides to mod it.

 

With a guitar like the Swingster, I'm convinced of that.

 

First, the pups on it ain't regular HBs of any quality. They're a different deal. As I said, it's designed to be Gretschy, not Gibson-y.

 

I think he probably has the wrong guitar for what he apparently wants in the first place - and it ain't likely to become what he thinks he wants regardless of pups.

 

It seems you keep returning to, "You don't get it."

 

Yes, I do get it.

 

A relative beginner on electric guitar should research, research, research, find a guitar that comes close to what he thinks he wants that he can afford. Then he plays and wrings it out with lots of variations of guitar and amp settings with his growing technique, his changing string choices, his amp(s) and other gear.

 

When he has a good idea of what he has and its full tone potential, then he does another round of research for what pups or stomp boxes or whatevers might help reach what he wants to change in terms of tone.

 

I always figured that one should decide on mods that will create a whole, a gestalt, of what one hopes to create both in tone and playability. I think that's the pilot's checklist for any flight into guitar playing.

 

Otherwise it's just tossing time and cash at a forlorn hope.

 

m

[Gunner]

Why does it bother anyone when someone else changes PU's in their guitar? It doesn't bother me when people keep theirs stock.

Amen.

[milod]

"It doesn't bother me when people keep theirs stock."

 

Ain't what it's been sounding like.

 

Again, what I'd recommend for a beginner to do is worlds different from someone who is in a position to know his or her guitar and equipment.

 

As far as I'm concerned, you can dump all the mag pups and design your own variations of piezo bridge setups or put a Strat set on an ES175. Your business and you know what you're up against. In fact, that sounds like an interesting mod to mess with at some point in some way or another.

 

But when a very new guy batches of "try this, try that, the pups with any new guitar, especially an Epi, should immediately be changed, but this has one characteristic and that type has other characteristics..."

 

Sheesh. You're right, there's oodles of stuff out there compared to when I was doing heavy modding. Oodles of really decent quality guitars at decent prices compared to back then, too. That means to me that it behooves all of us to put a bit more consideration into stuff.

 

You don't start reading Kant in German until you know how to read at least up to a basic level of German - and even then it is a wee bit complicated. Hypotheticals might suggest change, but fall short of specificity of designation of a means to that change.

 

m

[Bluemans335]

And yet pickups are still a pretty damn simple combination of wire, bobbins and magnets. New developments? Or variations on a theme?

 

Endless variations on a basic theme. They all have magnets that generate an electrical signal in a coil, when metal obects move in their magnetic field. Besides different using materials, wire gauges, pole pieces, and magnets, when you have thousands of turns of wire on a coil, there's a huge number of ways to wind them regarding tension and pattern, and where they're varied throughout those turns. That's where it becomes an art.

 

From a user perspective of what you can do with PU's (I'm not a winder), there's about 10 kinds of alnico magnets readily available these days that are cut to PU-size for HB's and P-90's. Every one of them changes a PU's EQ. They're made of different mixes of metals, which changes their magnetic fields, and makes them 'read' different parts of the string's vibrations. So every HB has about 10 'personalities', and if you only use the stock magnet, you don't know what that PU has to offer. P-90's are even more versatile, they have two of the same magnets, and you can mix different kinds to really fine tune your EQ's in each PU. Magnets are several dollars each, and it takes about 10 minutes to swap one out; most of that time is loosening strings and retuning. Again, there's nothing sacred about the stock magnet in a PU. The manufacturer doesn't know what kind of guitar you'll put it in (design or woods), your amp, tubes, and speakers, or even what kind of music you play. He had to pick a magnet, doesn't mean it's the best one for everybody.

 

EXample: Duncan's 'JB' (their biggest seller) is notorious for being picky about the woods it's in. It has thin wire and narrow coils, and was designed for bright woods (Jeff Beck's Tele); sometimes it does weird things in warm woods, like get an 'ice pick spike' and a flabby low end. To fix that, whether the JB came stock or was aftermarket, replacing it's A5 magnet completely changes the tones. Instead of being bright, thin, and midscooped (A5 characteristics), putting in a roughcast A5 softens the high end. An A2 makes it warm, full, and rich and nice for blues and classic rock (you'd never know it was a JB). Putting in an A8 makes it loud and aggressive, great for metal.

 

From your posts Joe, you sound overwhelmed with PU choices. I used to be too. Here's how I do it now: Start with high-quality PU's, you need a good foundation. Get ones that makes sense for what you're doing. Don't use high-output HB's with ceramic magnets for blues or jazz. Don't use warm PAF's for metal. See what you like and don't like about it's tones in your guitar, then:

 

1) Adjust your amp settings.

2) Adjust your PU and pole piece heights.

3) Check your pot values. Most HB's and P-90's come stock with 500K's. If your bridge is too bright, consider a 250K or two for it. If you have a Gibson, and it's too dark, take out a 300K or two and put in 500K's. If you still want a brighter neck, there's 1-meg pots (I do this with some of my Les Pauls).

4) If it's still not what you want, look at replacement magnets (I've posted their various EQ's a number of times on the Duncan fourm). For several dollars and 10 minutes, you may get exactly what you want. You can always go back to the stock magnet; no permanent changes involved with swapping magnets.

 

This is easy stuff, takes no skill or experience, beginners can do it too. There's instructional video online, and lots of guys to help you on forums. I'm a big advocate of knowing your instrument and taking control of your tone. I've helped many players with this. It's a great feeling to know how to do these things, and not be at the mercy of whatever your guitar happens to sound like. And you don't have to pay a tech, and hope that he gets it right. When you have the right set up and tones you love, you will play your guitar more often and you will be inspired to play better.

[Bluemans335]

Otherwise it's just tossing time and cash at a forlorn hope.

 

 

Not if you buy used PU's, because you can sell them for what you paid for them. It costs nothing unless they do what you expect them to. It's like test-driving a car.

 

As far as the time factor, beginners buy what they can afford, which are usually imports and usually have cheap PU's. Understandably, they often don't want to spend months or years playing with tones they don't like. It's discouraging for them. This isn't like the old days when you and I were starting out. There's tons of instructional video and tab, they can learn things in weeks that took us years. They take up guitar because they're inspired by certain players (as we were) and want to get those sounds and tones. There's no need for them to wait indefinitely for that. They can take advantage of the resources and technology, and immerse themselves into this and be better players in a year than you and I are now. That's the world we live in. I've seen teenagers in music stores, some of them are amazing players. Kids! There used to be a child prodigy on guitar here and there. Now it's commonplace.

[Bluemans335]

I'm not overwhelmed at all. I simply don't find minutae entertaining.

 

And most guitar players are like you. But I find great tones to be very entertaining, it's worth my time to understand what makes them.

[milod]

Yup...

 

A pupswap hobby is fine. It shouldn't be an immediate concern of a new picker who has a guitar with a complex control setup and a special set of pups such as is found on the Swingster. A cheapie Epi SG, perhaps. Not the Swingster.

 

m

[mcgruff]

Let's agree that if someone comes to the forum looking for information about a pickup upgrade, we'll try to help them as best we can.

[Bluemans335]

Let's just agree that we each think the other is full of it, and leave it at that.

 

Nothing like an open mind.

[milod]

Blueser...

 

Considering what I've read from you ostensibly to a new guy, it reminds me of my major error some years ago of attempting to explain operating systems, hexadecimal math, clock ticks, various programming methods, compilers and high level vs. low level operations and addressing.

 

It didn't work and left the guy awfully confused when he just wanted to know how to use a word processor, photo editor and save the things where I could get at them for publication.

 

But.. gee, he said he wanted to know how the machine worked...

 

Yup. I never did that again.

 

m

[Bluemans335]

Blueser...

 

Considering what I've read from you ostensibly to a new guy, it reminds me of my major error some years ago of attempting to explain operating systems, hexadecimal math, clock ticks, various programming methods, compilers and high level vs. low level operations and addressing.

 

It didn't work and left the guy awfully confused

 

You underestimate today's players. Some are quick studies, many more than there used to be, thanks to the internet & technology. They're learning at speeds we never dreamed were possible. I help newbies all the time on the Duncan site. They pick up things fast and love knowing more about guitars and being able to do things themselves. It's a very different world with guitars than it was 10 years ago, let alone 40 years ago when you were modding.

 

I'm an accountant and started off years ago with big green worksheets and 20 lb adding machines. PC's have completely changed the accounting industry: what you can do and how long it takes you to do it. Cable, satellite, and high def have completely changed TV, from the black & white ones I grew up with, watching 3 local channels. My god, look at the sophistication of cell phones. Technolody has infiltrated music too, it's nothing like it was when we were growing up. It's a high tech world now, and people are growing up with it, unlike us. They're passing us by.

[milod]

Beginners still are beginners. I've taught generations of 'em.

 

Actually in terms of teaching teachers how to teach new skills and new managers management, the old original "Karate Kid" has been used as an example. I think it does that quite well.

 

I'm done on this thread.

 

m

[mcgruff]

Haven't been here long but jeez.. you guys.. I'm just not feeling the love.

 

Did a "modder" run over your dog and/or off with your wife some time?

[Bluemans335]

Haven't been here long but jeez.. you guys.. I'm just not feeling the love.

 

Did a "modder" run over your dog and/or off with your wife some time?

 

 

That's a possibility, those modders are rascals.

 

Milod has expressed a lot of regret over the mods he did 40 years ago. Didn't work out well for him. That's why I always tell players: 1) make sure your mods are reversable (no drilling or cutting), amd 2) keep all the parts you take off the guitar. I've bought and sold many guitars over the years; I modded all of them, and when I put them up for sale, returned them to stock. I've sold them what I paid for them, sometimes more. Had Milod done this years ago, he'd have a different view of mods and wouldn't be soured on the whole concept today.

 

Mc Gruff: You guys in the UK are lucky to have Bare Knuckle pickups, which are very pricey over here. I'd love to have the Peter Green set; he was incredible in his Fleetwood Mac days.

[mcgruff]

Bare Knuckle are pretty pricey here too - about £190 for the Peter Greens, which I think is about $300 in USD.

 

I'm going to have a go at winding some PAF 'buckers on my own, for my dot. If that goes well I've got a few experiments in mind. I bet a vintage Firebird-type pickup could sound good in a 335-style guitar. I love that bright, slightly spanky blend of Fender and Gibson you get from an old Firebird. It's the Gibson Telecaster.

 

Hey you've got plenty of good pickup winders over there too: Lindy Fralin, Jason Lollar, Zexcoil... Lots to choose from :)

[Bluemans335]

Hey you've got plenty of good pickup winders over there too: Lindy Fralin, Jason Lollar, Zexcoil... Lots to choose from :)

 

That we do, which is why I encourage players to try some of them if they're not satisfied with the way their guitar sounds. Seymour Duncan, Dimarzio, and Rio Grande are pretty good too. Life's too short to live with uninspiring tones.

[milod]

"Milod has expressed a lot of regret over the mods he did 40 years ago. Didn't work out well for him. That's why I always tell players: 1) make sure your mods are reversable (no drilling or cutting), amd 2) keep all the parts you take off the guitar. I've bought and sold many guitars over the years; I modded all of them, and when I put them up for sale, returned them to stock. I've sold them what I paid for them, sometimes more. Had Milod done this years ago, he'd have a different view of mods and wouldn't be soured on the whole concept today."

 

Waitaminut there...

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

Sorry, I modded, rebuilt, etc., probably 40-50 guitars in that short time period. It worked out quite well for me, thank you. Besides pups I swapped, sometimes playing games with winding, etc., I also built some electric 7 and 9 strings that took a bit of modding of the pups as well as bridges, nuts, etc., to work well. I sold more than a few by gigging with 'em.

 

I was gonna drop out of your thread hijack that "guitars with original equipment are probably crap and gotta be modded or you're a stupid old fashioned sort because today's beginners obviously are more intellectually competent than you are," but that last comment did it.

 

The one regret I have is that modding made enough money for me at the time that I kept doing it for others instead of playing more guitar for me. The only modded box I did keep, I regret that the pick guard I pulled off ended up off in lala land after a dozen moves or so since '75. Gotta admit of my guitars today only two have been modded beyond a good setup.

 

I'm not soured on modding. I've not until the past two days had a bad experience with a modder.

 

I just think beginners should do a great deal of studying before they get into modding, whether it's computers, vehicles from motorcycles to sports cars and off roaders of various sorts as well as guitars.

 

I just regret that I lack your emotional certitude on the lack of intellectual capacity of others. Or... maybe I don't.

 

m