JimR56
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Posts posted by JimR56
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At one point in the vid I thought it almost looked like a two-piece top. I thought I could quite clearly see a line running through the two pickups and into the tailpiece.
It certainly looks like a spruce top to me.
I might have forgotten to mention this, and I think you're absolutely right. I noticed it first in this photo:
Spruce. Byrdland.
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If you pause the video between 3:55 and 3:59 elapsed time; or at 4:15 to 4:17 elapsed time, you can clearly see that the head inlay is a flowerpot. It's really got more to do with recognizing the size of the inlay (relative to the size of the headstock and its other features) than about seeing the detail of the flowerpot itself (but you can see the basic shape of the flowerpot).
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I looked at the HD video Full screen and the tail piece does look looped but I am still not convinced from any photographs or that video that it is a Byrdland Tail Piece there is not a definitive shot where it is clearly so in my own opinion.
On the head stock again I have not seen a clear shot that shows the inlay to be a flower pot perhaps someone could get a screen capture at a resolution to show what is being said I can not do that on my machine as there is simply no conclusive frame of the video which is clearly a flower pot and in different shots it could be either.
In both cases, I've seen the evidence clearly. I'm not sure why you're unable to see it, unless you're not looking closely enough at the details. As I said, you can clearly see the four "loops" at the bottom of the Byrdland tailpiece when the stage lighting reflects off of the metal. I think I gave you the elapsed time when this occurs (if you can pause the video at just the right moment, that is the ideal way to see it). If I could capture a screen shot and post it, I would, but I would have to work on that. The head inlay is far easier to recognize, and again I'm not sure why you're unable to recognize it. It's far larger than the crown inlay of an ES350T.
On Wood Grain from the photographs I do not think any amount of sleuthing will devine the guitar has a laminated or carved top.Roger, don't think about laminated vs carved. Think about spruce vs maple. They have different grain patterns. It appears to have the vertical striated pattern of spruce, although I'm less certain on this point than the others.
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Jim If its a Byrdland it would be very nice to find that out I can't say that it is especially important to me but as you are having the discussion I am happy to join in with a Socratic sprit of investigation of the facts.
Your points on the Super 400 were well made I am grateful to your having taken the time, I'm not sure I feel any straightening out was or is required in the sense that you make the comment.
All of this guitar sleuthing requires both knowledge and attention to detail. In situations like this, one shouldn't be too quick to make assumptions without employing a considerable amount of both.
I will as Khune suggests take a look at the video in HD. My comment regarding the Wood was not very detailed I thought is was obvious that a Laminated top still presents the samme grain as a solid carved top and whichlst spruce and maple have different grains I amnot convinced that one could tell if a guitar is laminate or solid from a video even in HD especially one with qualtiy bindings.
I don't think I follow you completely. I detected the appearance of the grain of spruce, and as I already said, I detected that from looking at photos, not videos.
The Head stock logo is an interesting point quite honestly I am not really persuaded that it is terribly significantThat makes absolutely no sense. Virtually all Byrdlands have flowerpot inlay on the head. ES350's do not. This is a relatively permanent feature, not easily changed like a pickguard or tailpiece. This is very significant to this discussion.
serial number schems and Pickup componentstoggle swithces pots ets are famously pretty much dependant on what was in stock at the time during this period of gibson production, switching out a trapeze is obviously even more easily accomplished.
If Clapton's guitar had all the appointments of an ES350T except for its Byrdland tailpiece, then you would have a point. But clearly that isn't the case.
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By "gap" I meant to the actual pickup. Sorry for the confusion.
Okay, I see what you're saying, but the only way the actual pickup (humbucker) could be against the end of the fingerboard is if the mounting ring had been cut through, so in that sense there's almost always going to be the type of gap you're referring to.
One would think that all Byrds would be the same. I doubt that Les Paul pickup/neck distances vary. Even though all the Byrds in the above pics (except the white one) are from the '60s, there's no way that there would be mistakes (and I'm hesitant to use the word "mistakes") would be made in regards to the pickup positioning.It's very strange.....
I tend to agree with you, although as I say, I've never really studied or researched this. If you find a pattern or some official and reliable explanation, please let us know.
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Thanks cdntac. That's interesting, and worthy of further study. In a few of your photos, it appears that the end of the fingerboard is touching the mounting ring, so that's really not a "gap". In the case of Clapton's guitar, it appears that the mounting ring had to be cut into in order to get the pickup that close to the fingerboard. In the case of Nugent's white one, was that a custom order?
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In 2004 a dealer had a blonde Custom Shop Byrdland for sale. It had a 25.5" scale length, Bigsby and parallelogram inlays in an ebony fretboard. Since I'm obsessed with long-scale, thin-body archtops, I was thinking about buying it, but it was sold in the meantime. A year later, the same guitar showed up on another dealer's site. The price I was quoted on it seemed reasonable, but when I contacted the dealer again, he told me that the price had been a mistake and quoted one $1300 higher. I thought the new price was too high considering the Bigsby and inlays, and passed on it. I sometimes keep photos of interesting guitars I didn't buy, but apparently not for this one.
Anyway, that's at least one Byrdland with factory parallelogram inlays, so I figure there could be more.
Danny W.
Interesting, Danny. And yes, there are most likely more. I've seen many Gibsons over the years that had been custom-ordered with variations of all kinds. There are examples of this in Duchossoir's well-known "GIbson Electrics" book. Some "oddball" guitars have also been said to have been put together by Gibson employees as their own personal instruments (George Gruhn first told me about this phenomenon). Also, some models have gone through changes as the models have evolved. Early examples are often different from what eventually becomes "stock" for that model.
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I'm in the Byrdland camp for sure now.
But of course now I'm wondering why some Byrdlands have the neck right up against the pickup....
I haven't researched it, but I just looked at a bunch of photos of Byrdlands from different periods, and every one of them had the neck pickup right up against the end of the fingerboard. Maybe not all are like this, but it would seem that most are. Maybe you could post some pics, do more searches, and report back. Seems like a worthwhile thing to examine, if you find enough evidence.
I think there are always going to be exceptions to every rule, though.
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By the way, Roger, do you remember the guy who straightened you out regarding the difference between double parallellogram inlays and Super 400-type split block inlays; and the fact that Ted Nugent's 12-string guitar (the one with a Super 400 head inlay, Super 400 fretboard inlays, Super 400 pickup spacing, and a Super 400 tailpiece) was not a 12-string Byrdland? That was me. :)
Edit: I have not read Clapton's book. There's still plenty of evidence in the photos and videos that this was more likely a modified or custom order Byrdland than a 350T, though. Body depth is absolutely consistent with those models, by the way.
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Hi Jim,
There is no way of telling for sure and as I said in the other thread Eric himself doesn't remember much about this himself did you look at the rehearsal video I posted poor chap could hardly stand up.
So, you're arguing that the only period of time in which Clapton possessed this instrument, that he was too high to know what guitar he had? I don't know how long he had this guitar, but to suggest that he was high beyond the ability to think during that whole period of time seems ludicrous to me.
In that rehearsal video there is a closser look at the tail trapeze it looks like a 350t to me, you describe it as having something stuck to it. but definitely more Byrdland see these pictures of the trapeze for both and it may be still a vague possibility that it is either.I presented everybody with a Youtube video that clearly shows the tailpiece. I even gave you the elapsed time at which you get the clearest view. The light reflects off of it, and you can clearly see the four loops that exist at the bottom portion of a Byrdland tailpiece, as well as the three loops at the top. Here's a close shot of the design, for reference:
Believe me on this one Roger, it's a Byrdland tailpiece, despite the dark foreign object that transverses the central portion of it.
What is the likelie hood of the fingerboard being the only thing that is modded or special ordered? evens I guess but not probable.??? Are you serious? What is the likelihood that somebody took an ES350T, and changed the headstock inlay; the fingerboard binding; the tailpiece; the tuners (again, they have metal buttons like a Byrdland)...? Your argument is illogical. Looking at this guitar, it would be FAR easier to take a Byrdland and change the fretboard inlays and the pickguard than it would be to take an ES350T and change all these other things.
on the question of the top being spruce the grain of laminated tops still looks like wood I am not sure that that is such a conclusive piece of evidence."Still looks like wood"...? Spruce has a different grain and appearance from maple, Roger. This is a minor part of my argument, and I don't think I even need it to make my case, but it does add to it.
I do think on balance that it is probably an ES350t but I can't get excited about it either way I am not persuaded to your point of view whiilst I fully acknowledge that what you propose may be the case the mst conclusive piece of information is the fret board inlays and those are the main distinguishinh feature between two otherwise identical instruments in terms of dimensions etc apart from the trapeze.Roger, are you aware that this guitar has a Byrdland-style flowerpot headstock inlay? Is that not a relatively permanent and important distinguishing feature of a Byrdland? Again, don't base your entire argument on one feature. Clearly, the double parallellogram inlays are not right for a stock Byrdland, but they could have been changed, OR, the guitar could have been ordered that way. The point is, there are far more things pointing to this being a slightly unusual Byrdland than an unusual ES350T.
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Hi Jim,
I thought it was a es 350 t but wouldn't bet on it as you say the finger board could have been custom ordered on balance I would say it probably is a 350 t based on the inlays but do not know for sure...
??? I don't understand why some of you keep insisting that it's probably an ES350T. Look at the info I just presented. Why would you base your opinion on one thing (the fretboard inlays), when there is far more evidence that it's a Byrdland? I just don't get it. All these other things point to it being a Byrdland, and Clapton even stated (in interviews, when he was probably NOT high) that it was a Byrdland.
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It's an ES350T, the "cheap" version of the Byrdland. Same specs but less ornate and with a maple ply top. I had one in the late 60s, another great one I foolishly traded off. Edit to add that the one he's playing has an unusual feature in the "scroll" or "tail" at the end of the fingerboard. These were usually only found on ebony board models.
Okay, I know this is an OLD debate, and I've seen it discussed on numerous forums. We may never know the exact history and story behind this guitar, but from what I've seen and read, I think it's definitely more Byrdland than ES350T.
1. Clapton has been quoted that it was a Byrdland.
2. The headstock inlay (flowerpot): Byrdland.
3. The fingerboard is pointed at the end: Byrdland.
4. The tailpiece: Byrdland (and by the way, there's something stuck through it or on top of it, running horizontally, which is distracting, but it's definitely a Byrdland tailpiece).
5. The top appears to be spruce: Byrdland.
6. The tuners have gold-plated metal buttons: Byrdland.
1. Double parallelogram fretboard inlays: 350T
2. Pickguard appears to be black: 350T (but also a very easy thing to change/replace)
Maybe the fingerboard was modified, or maybe it was custom-ordered that way, but the evidence points more to Byrdland than 350T.
References:
Video, "While My Guitar Gently Weeps":
At about 4:04 to 4:06, there's a good view of the Byrdland tailpiece. Note also the reflection of light off the metal tuner buttons.
Clapton quote: http://books.google.com/books?id=7hdNzCRKjeMC&pg=PA44&dq=Byrdland+12+String#v=onepage&q=Byrdland%2012%20String&f=false
Small photo, but note spruce-like grain in the upper bout on the bass side...
Both models featured single-bound f-holes, so never mind that detail, but the top binding appears to be the thicker/fancier Byrdland type, judging from this photo...
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I would agree that you should change the pickups, but I would go with twin humbuckers as they are just better pickups than the 1970s P-90s.
mini-humbuckers, yes.
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Not at the moment, but I had a 1960 125TDC back in '85 and around 2003 I briefly owned a '57 125TD. Come to think of it, I owned a 120 for a while in the late 80s, which wasn't a lot different.
Be very mindful of the neck set. They weren't all that rugged and many need resets. Beware if the action is on the high side and the bridge is all the way down. Look before you swipe the card.
Among the many Gibson hollowbodies I've owned, the closest thing I had to this specific model was an Epiphone Century that I picked up for almost nothing at a local flea market back in the 80's (in fact, I bought two that were almost identical). They were both playable, but would have benefited (and probably did after I sold them) from neck resets. So... good advice from ksdaddy.
As for what kind of music you can play on them... I generally don't subscribe to that way of thinking. You're only limited by your imagination.
Clapton's Guitar "A Concert for Bangladesh"
in Gibson Custom
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Nicely done, BigKahune. The image you posted leaves no doubt about the head inlay (not that I had any doubt).
If you could work the same magic regarding the tailpiece (at 4:04 to 4:06 elapsed is optimal, I believe, for seeing the four loops at the bottom, as the stage lights reflect off of the tailpiece), maybe there's even a slight hope of convincing Roger.![[rolleyes]](//content.invisioncic.com/p286412/emoticons/default_msp_rolleyes.gif)
:)