A1Coyote Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Last year one of my sons told me he had an interest in learning to play guitar. His younger brother has been a bass player for about 5 years. So I had picked up a used Les Paul Special II in black that was in excellent shape and cost me $90. I told him if he showed a genuine interest I would buy him a new guitar. He has been taking lessons and is doing well enough that I figured it was time to follow through and keep my word. A month or so ago GC had a sale on Epiphone LP Special II Plus Top Limited Editions (normally priced for $199.00) for $129.99. They have a flamed maple top, and are a great looking guitar, especially for that price. So I picked him up one in Heritage Sunburst. He loves it, but it has the same weak area that his other one has, namely the tuners seem to come out of tune quickly, in typical kid fashion, he says the stock Special II tuners "suck". So he is interested in upgrading from the original 14:1 covered tuners. I am seeking help trying to find out if there are any tuners available that are direct replacements with a higher tuning ratio? Finding any complete info for this model of Epiphone and it's tuners is almost like trying to find hen's teeth. What size are the peg holes in the head stock? I've been looking thru almost every forum I can find on the subject. For the Special II it seems like the most common description (minus the actual tuner hole size) I have found is that the head stock has the "vintage size peg hole". What size is that actually? Are they 8.5MM or 8.8MM? Or are they a different size altogether? Sure would appreciate it if some one can help me out with this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickC Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 10mm, but your problem is either the nut or saddle slots. File them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 4, 2015 Author Share Posted May 4, 2015 Thanks for the advice! I greatly appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhumbadringle Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I would suggest replacing tuners, if you notice a lot of play, and plastic nut. I have done so myself on my epi special II and the results have been satisfactory, holds tune. I went with some grover minis, however you will have to widen peg holes with a tapered reamer, very easily done. Also went with graphtec replacement nut, no complaints there either. In combination they did the job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 Thanks for the response rhumbadringle! So you had to enlarge the peg holes to 10MM? Do you know offhand what size the holes originally were? I appreciate every response, thanks all. I was a woodwind guy, played sax and I am just trying to guide my son in the right direction. There aren't a lot of guitar players that we know personally to ask advice. As far as the nut goes, man made or otherwise, when you get a set up done, do they file the nut, or is that something to ask for separately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhumbadringle Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Thanks for the response rhumbadringle! So you had to enlarge the peg holes to 10MM? Do you know offhand what size the holes originally were? I appreciate every response, thanks all. I was a woodwind guy, played sax and I am just trying to guide my son in the right direction. There aren't a lot of guitar players that we know personally to ask advice. As far as the nut goes, man made or otherwise, when you get a set up done, do they file the nut, or is that something to ask for separately? I had to enlarge to 9.9219MM or 25/64 of an inch, very close, not sure what the original size was though, I apologize. If you take the nut to be installed by a luthier or the like, they will probably have to file the nut slightly to ensure a snug fit. When buying a nut the manufacturer generally will state that some filing will likely be needed, which you can do yourself if so inclined by comparing to the original nut... I am in the same boat as you guys though, as far as not knowing anyone in person to ask advice. However the internet is a great resource, led me to the upgrades I have done which as mentioned before are satisfactory. That being said take everything with a grain of salt :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickC Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The stock tuners and nut are fine. I've got an LP100 with the same tuners and nut, and I've no issues. You have to set the guitar up or it will probably not stay in tune. This means filing the nut and saddles. It goes out of tune because the strings bind in the nut. Ergo, you file the nut so that the strings seat correctly, which reduces the tendency to bind. You can replace these parts, sure, but now you're wasting money achieving the same result you can get with some welder tip cleaners and 15 minutes of work. Remember: plenty of Gibsons have plastic nuts. The difference is all setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 ErickC I really appreciate your input. Looking for a solution from different angles helps to come up with the best angle of attack to solve a problem. I am thinking I will look at getting the nut and bridge saddles filed first. Then see how it goes from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The LP-100 and Special II have different tuners. The Special has 8mm stamped tuners and the LP-100 comes with 10mm die-cast. I agree that the die-cast tuners are usually problem-free, but the stamped tuners on a Special tend to have slack in them and dont hold tune all that well. Sometimes they are ok and work well enough, other times, not so much. I've never had an issue with strings binding in the nut on an Epiphone, but its not impossible. You can widen the slots yourself with a small file. Its really easy. Then coat them with some graphite or pencil lead to lube them. I wouldnt worry about the bridge saddles unless strings are breaking in that area from a sharp edge. While not the best bridges in the world, they are typically problem-free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickC Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Interesting. The last LP special I had used the same 10mm tuners, but it was a fair bit older. Are the 8mm tuners the Kluson-type the G400s have? I've not had issues with those, either, but I suspect there may be some manufacturing irregularities. If filing the nut does no help (and it's always worked for me, most of the cheap guitars I own have had tuning issues before some nut smoothing), Gotoh has replacement direct-fit Kluson-type tuners, available at stew-mac for around $37. I use these on my Danelectro, which, having also had its nut filed (metal nut + burrs = clink, clink, sproing!), holds tune very well indeed. They also have Grover's Kluson-type ($47) or genuine Kluson wafflebacks ($96!). I recommend filing the saddles for the proper gauge because you're already filing the nut, and you can prevent breakage issues later on. It can also help with string buzzing issues. If one is filing the nut, it may also be wise to set the optimal action there as well, since, again, you're filing it anyway. And if you mess up, and were going to get a TUSQ or other replacement nut anyway, who cares? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The 8mm tuners are the cheap stamped kind with the removable cover, not to be confused with Epiphone's vintage style tuners which are also stamped, but generally of higher quality. These are similar to the generic 8mm stamped tuners that come installed on the LP Special. The Epiphone version usually comes with chrome plated keys. Certain limited runs of the LP Special may come with the 10mm die-cast tuners, but generally not. Many people ugrade to better tuners almost immediately with these guitars. The first thing I did when I bought my SG Junior was upgrade the tuners to Gibson Deluxe. This is what the generic die-cast tuners look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 RobinTheHood, thanks for your input, the addition of a photos is terrific. The type you photographed at top are pretty much the same in appearance as the ones that came stock on my son's Special II with the exception of the buttons, a minor difference. This is a photo of the tuners on his Special II. Not the best photo, but you get the idea. This LP Special II was made last year in China. We have one in black that is a bit older and was made in Indonesia, which has the very same tuners as this Special II Plus Top. These stock tuners are listed as 14:1 tuning ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 Before I posted my question regarding replacement tuners for my son's Special II, I had been considering a set of TonePro's TPK33 Kluson Deluxe Tuners, they have a tuning ratio of 16:1. Has anybody had experience with them? Appearance wise they look like the Kluson type tuners you see on SG's, only the tuning pegs are the vintage style 8mm. The reverse is a double line "Kluson Deluxe". Visually they look a lot better than the stock tuners, but I am most interested in whether or not they function better. If they work & look better that is a plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve112 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Before I posted my question regarding replacement tuners for my son's Special II, I had been considering a set of TonePro's TPK33 Kluson Deluxe Tuners, they have a tuning ratio of 16:1. Has anybody had experience with them? Appearance wise they look like the Kluson type tuners you see on SG's, only the tuning pegs are the vintage style 8mm. The reverse is a double line "Kluson Deluxe". Visually they look a lot better than the stock tuners, but I am most interested in whether or not they function better. If they work & look better that is a plus. Yes, they function better, more stable and at 16:1 ratio are easier to be accurate with when tuning. I must add though, tuning stability is very often a nut issue that is aggravated by neck relief plus fret level. This MUST be correct for the guitar to have tuning stability. Also, the hex bushings on the tuners can't be loose enough to allow the tuning shaft to have any play as the strings flex when playing and will result in random detuning. (some strings may go sharp, others flat). These bushings should be checked and snugged every string change. A fret level, if needed, plus a close inspection and/or adjustment of the nut along with the tuner bushing tightening will go a long way to render the guitar completely playable. I have a stock Epi ES339 with this work done and it plays VERY well. The stock Grover Deluxe tuners at 14:1 are very good tuners and do not slip. They simply require one to tune carefully and accurately in the first place. They are the very same tuners on some Gibsons that are labelled "Gibson Deluxe" instead of "Grover Deluxe". Do the other things I mentioned and if the budget tuners are now the problem, I would strongly suggest the Grovers as I think they'll fit and they are not expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 Steve112 thank you very much for your reply, much appreciated. We picked up my son's original Special II from a professional luthier earlier tonight. It has had a standard set-up, new strings and the truss rod was adjusted. Sounds like a totally different guitar. My younger son, our resident bass player decided he wants to try his hand at playing a 6 string. I asked him to make sure it was in tune before he played it. And he played it for an easy 3 or so hours. I had him check to see if it was still in tune when he was finished playing it, and on most of the strings it still was. As for new tuners, I'll wait and see how it goes. I like the looks of the Grovers, but I haven't seen any with 8mm tuning pegs. I was hoping to find something that might be closer to a "drop-in" swap out. I am not really wanting to drill out the tuner holes to fit 10mm tuners. Not sure if this Special II ever had a set-up done prior to me picking it up last summer, but it sure has made a big difference in the sound and playability (according to my son) on this guitar. The new Plus Top has already had a standard set-up after we took it home and out of the box, so there was no real comparison, not like this one we just brought home. What a big difference that a set-up made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 One of the Special II's we have was made in May 2007 in Indonesia. Just ran the serial number off the neck plate on the Guitar Dater Project webpage. This really surprises me, as it was in beautiful shape when I bought it, not a single scratch, ding or dent on it anywhere. That one is in black and will be easy paint over the plastic wood I will use to fill in the mount screw holes from the original tuners. Judging by the feedback I have received, I have decided to try my hand at replacing the tuners on the 2007 model. I'll post some pics of the process when it is completed. I am favoring a set of TonePros Kluson 3X3 Tuners, model TPK33 in NICKEL finish. The tuning pegs are supposed to be 8mm like the stock tuners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve112 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 One of the Special II's we have was made in May 2007 in Indonesia. Just ran the serial number off the neck plate on the Guitar Dater Project webpage. This really surprises me, as it was in beautiful shape when I bought it, not a single scratch, ding or dent on it anywhere. That one is in black and will be easy paint over the plastic wood I will use to fill in the mount screw holes from the original tuners. Judging by the feedback I have received, I have decided to try my hand at replacing the tuners on the 2007 model. I'll post some pics of the process when it is completed. I am favoring a set of TonePros Kluson 3X3 Tuners, model TPK33 in NICKEL finish. The tuning pegs are supposed to be 8mm like the stock tuners. Sounds great, let us know how the new ones work out. Played my Epi ES339 at a gig last night and it played beautifully, held tuning very well. Had nice comments on the vintage rock tone that this guitar produces. This speaks to the level of quality that Epiphone is building into these relatively low priced "budget" instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1Coyote Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Will do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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