iangibson Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Hi folks, Here's an original Dove I recently bought from a widow of a working musician in Middle West. By original I meant that it's from the early-60's and there are a few things that are not original to the guitar. The seial # on the orange label inside the guitar body is 92xxx which I think places it in 1962. And the body top has been refinished in cherry sunburst (it was originally natural.) So here's a few pictures of the guitar. I'd like to go over the parts with you experts and confirm whether or not they're original. First off, the truss rod cover. It's a wide-bevel 50/60's type. I know this model is supposed to come with a white cover with the lettering "DOVE" engraved, but do you think this plain cover could be original? It's the smooth-surfaced 60's style, not the rippled 50's version. TBC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Here's a shot of the guitar in a brighter situation to show the closer shade of color to the actual in-person color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Now onto the pickguard - it's a replacement, obviously! And I'm planning to locate an original guard in the used gear market. I may be able to find a junk early/mid-60's Dove from which I could salvage the guard. Does anyone know until which year Gibson used the original pickguard mold. I remember Gibson recovering original pickguard molds for some models like Hummingbird and J-200, and they re-issued those models with the pickguards made using those molds a few years back. I believe those were of late-60's molds which leads me to think I'm in need of a pickguard made from an early mold circa 1962-1965. Am I correct? How many versions of the Dove pickguard are there in the 60's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 just saw this Dove guard. They will be difficult to find. http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-GIBSON-PICKGUARD-1968-FOR-GIBSON-DOVE-MINT-NOS_W0QQitemZ170416489116QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item27ad9d429c Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 Yes, I'm sure it may take a long time for me to find an original for sale and when one comes up on its own, it will be very expensive. I'm not sure at this point if I'll want to spend too much on this part. I shouldn't expect any luck in contacting Gibson and asking to sell me the guard they put on the current model, should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Gibson won't sell you one directly but you should be able to have a Gibson Five Star Dealer order one for you. However it could be $300 or $400. I have never priced one, I'm just going by what they get for J200 guards. $200 is actually a good price for that guard on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 The one on eBay is a late red-ish version and I need a dark one with no screws. If an original showed up at around $200-250 (though unlikely,) I would snatch. $100 for a current guard (I'm not insane enough to spend $400 on a plastic board!) I guess my best bet is to wait for a smashed Dove (either an original or current model) to come up, save the guard and sell off the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 I just checked the vintage guitar info site and there's a mention of the truss rod cover spec change in 1965. I thought Dove always came with the white TRC from the beginning, but now it sounds like it didn't appear until 1965 and before then the plain black-on-white type like the one on my Dove was used. Can anyone confirm this? Dove Flattop Available: 1962 to present Collectibility Rating: 1962-1965: C, 1965-1969: D. Because this is a square shoulder guitar, there aren't a lot of collectors interested in this model. When introduced, it became Gibson's second from the top flat top model. 1962 Dove introduction specs: 16.25" wide, square shoulder dreadnought, maple back and sides, mahogany neck, tuneomatic bridge inlaid into a rosewood bridge with dove-shaped pearl inlays on bridge ends, pickguard with 2 points towards bridge and 1 toward treble bout, pearl dove inlaid on pickguard, multiple bound top and back, bound rosewood fingerboard with double parallelagram inlays, crown peghead inlay, gold tuners and bridge, cherry sunburst. 1963 Dove specs: natural finish available with cherry back and sides. 1965 Dove specs: Truss rod cover changes from black with white outside line, to white with black outside line. 1966 Dove specs: pickguard no longer hand made with pearl (now a pantograph machine is used). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george black Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I have a 1960s dove lawsuit copy with all the Parts you are looking for. Was going to sell it for $450 Let me know if you want pics.IDENTICAL BRIDGE AND ORIGINAL PICK GUARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 I have a 1960s dove lawsuit copy with all the Parts you are looking for. Was going to sell it for $450 Let me know if you want pics.IDENTICAL BRIDGE AND ORIGINAL PICK GUARD. Thanks. Just sent you an email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Regarding a Dove shaped pickguard (which I can't tell from the photo whether it is one or not) I would think any authorized Gibson repairman (or any repairman for that matter) should be able to simply cut you a new pickguard by tracing the shape of a Dove's pickguard (provided he has access to one) and then put it on the guitar with double sided tape. The bird won't be on the pickguard, but many birds on pickguards from that era have worn off anyhow. Plus, I'm not sure why you are so concerned with the pickguard being an absolute real one from 1962. Based on what you said, your guitar has been refinished in red sunburst when it was originally a natural guitar...reducing any potential value it has in the vintage collectible market significantly (at least 50%) due to the refinish. As the refinish renders it non-original beyond restoration as original, I'd say simply enjoy the guitar for what it is...a cool vintage Dove whose previous owner didn't know better who refinished the guitar and got rid of the original pickguard for who knows what reason. But, its still a Gibson and probably good sounding and playing. If you want an original version 1962 Dove in original condition, there are many to purchase from vintage guitar collectors at a price of course. Or newer Dove's in original condition that are quite coool, too. QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 The bird on the pickguard on Dove is of inlaid MOP, so it's permanent unlike Hummingbird. I know it's a refin'd guitar and the value lost in it, but in my opinion the pickguard is what makes this guitar one of a kind from the standpoint of appearance, so to me it's a vital component to put back on the guitar if possible. I'm not limited to an original early-60's guard. I'll be fine with a current version, but not those late-60's red guard which would look fully wrong on an early Dove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 IanGibson- That makes sense, the pickguard on the Dove is cool. What an interesting tale on this guitar. Any clue why the prior owner refinished it and removed the original Dove pickguard? The only other thing to consider here....is it possible the guitar is really a Southern Jumbo with a Dove bridge added to it? Southern Jumbos came in sunburst as well as natural and had the same pickguard minus the Dove's bird didn't they? Does the label inside say its a Dove? Just trying to give you food for thought. QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george black Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Trying to send pics of the dove but how??? Did you receive my pics on your email? the picture to the left is the only way I could figure to get it on. The bridge is Identical to yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 IanGibson- That makes sense' date=' the pickguard on the Dove is cool. What an interesting tale on this guitar. Any clue why the prior owner refinished it and removed the original Dove pickguard? The only other thing to consider here....is it possible the guitar is really a Southern Jumbo with a Dove bridge added to it? Southern Jumbos came in sunburst as well as natural and had the same pickguard minus the Dove's bird didn't they? Does the label inside say its a Dove? Just trying to give you food for thought. QM [/quote'] I had some time to surf the internet a bit. I saw a number of cherry sunburst Doves. I'm curious if the seller told you the guittar was refinished from natural to cherry sunburst. If it was refinished then it would make sense that the refinisher likely took off the pickguard when refinishing the guitar and from there...put on another one, keeping the original?????? If the seller didn't tell you it was refinished, I would carefully compare its sunburst to Gibson factory sunbursts from that era...to try and establish if it really was refinished to sunburst. Just can't figure out why someone would refinish it although from that period, it did occur sometimes. Also, you descibed the widow's husband as a working musician. That could mean hard play on the guitar to the point where the Dove is worn off. Isn't the Dove on John Cougar Mellenkamp's Dove worn off? QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 IanGibson- That makes sense' date=' the pickguard on the Dove is cool. What an interesting tale on this guitar. Any clue why the prior owner refinished it and removed the original Dove pickguard? The only other thing to consider here....is it possible the guitar is really a Southern Jumbo with a Dove bridge added to it? Southern Jumbos came in sunburst as well as natural and had the same pickguard minus the Dove's bird didn't they? Does the label inside say its a Dove? Just trying to give you food for thought. QM [/quote'] It's a Dove and the orange label says Dove, too. Southern Jumbo/SJN/Country Western has a narrow headstock while Dove has a wide type (see the pics below. Top: my 1962 Dove, Bottom: 1966 Southern Jumbo Natural.) Also the neck scale on mine is 25-1/2" whereas it's 24-3/4" on Southern Jumbos. The pickguard shape is different as well. The seller of the guitar told me that her husband had it refinished in this cherry sunburst to his own satisfaction, about five years ago, and that the pickguard was somehow damaged so the luthier removed it. He tried to locate a same pickguard to no luck, so put on what's on the guitar now. The husband passed away before the work was complete. The widow said her husband was known for his musical talent in his neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Also' date=' you descibed the widow's husband as a working musician. That could mean hard play on the guitar to the point where the Dove is worn off. Isn't the Dove on John Cougar Mellenkamp's Dove worn off? QM [/quote'] The guitar does show a sign of hard picking in two spots. Can you tell the top wood is gouged just outside of the strings between the bridge and sound hole? The gouges have been filled with lacquer and made flush. Chances are the pickguard was also very worn to a point the owner or the luthier opted for replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Iangibson-You've certainly done your homework on this very interesting guitar and its unique story. Thanks for sharing and best of luck with whatever you decide to do. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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