Adrien Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi there! I'm new to this forum and I have a few questions for you guys! I'm about to buy an old Epiphone Riviera BUT I would appreciate to have your approval... Reading the other topics on this beauty already helped me quite a bit but I still have a few questions : It's an Epiphone Riviera ASB (antique sunburst I presume) and the guy who is selling it told me it is made in Japan. Serial number is on the back of the headstock (in gold behind the Epiphone logo) and says 3114020. It has a stop tailpiece and full size humbuckers. Neck is NOT bolt on and what I can see from the crappy pics is that the label inside the upper F hole looks oval and yellow~tan. However this last piece of information is not sure as the pics are really bad!! It seems in very good condition and comes with a good and beautifull case. I could get it for 500€ (maybe 450) but I would like to be sure it is an old Jap and that the price is ok (I think it is) because I tryed a few korean dot's for +- 300€ and for me this is crap! Hope to hear from you guys soon! Cheers, Adrien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 that guitar was made in korea in 1993 mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi there! I'm new to this forum and I have a few questions for you guys! I'm about to buy an old Epiphone Riviera BUT I would appreciate to have your approval... Reading the other topics on this beauty already helped me quite a bit but I still have a few questions : It's an Epiphone Riviera ASB (antique sunburst I presume) and the guy who is selling it told me it is made in Japan. Serial number is on the back of the headstock (in gold behind the Epiphone logo) and says 3114020. It has a stop tailpiece and full size humbuckers. Neck is NOT bolt on and what I can see from the crappy pics is that the label inside the upper F hole looks oval and yellow~tan. However this last piece of information is not sure as the pics are really bad!! It seems in very good condition and comes with a good and beautifull case. I could get it for 500€ (maybe 450) but I would like to be sure it is an old Jap and that the price is ok (I think it is) because I tryed a few korean dot's for +- 300€ and for me this is crap! Hope to hear from you guys soon! Cheers' date=' Adrien [/quote'] It may be a 1983 Japanese Matsumoku made Riviera, and not Korean! What you want to know from the seller. 1). Is the label oblong, Tan with Brown splotches, and does it mention Kalamazoo? 2). Has it got a three piece laminated (Longways) Maple neck (five piece on the headstock)? 3). Does the pickguard, if it has one, have a stamped Black "E"? 4). Are the tuners marked with an "e" on each casing. 5). Ask if the underside of the bridge is stamped Japan (should be able to see that in the reflection from the guitars surface, in a good light)? 6). Does the neck binding rise up to meet each fret end? If the owner answers yes to all of those questions then you have a Matsumoku made in Japan Riviera, from November 83. I have owned and played Matsumoku made guitars since 1982, and currently have two of their Casino`s so you can trust me on this information. My gut feeling, is that the Riviera in question, is Japanese( but post some pics, and I, or Nelson can tell you for sure. As for price 450-500 Euro is about right at the current time, what with the £ reaching parity!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 http://www.guitardaterproject.org/epiphone.aspx put d serial in mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 http://www.guitardaterproject.org/epiphone.aspx put d serial in mate The guitar dater project is not a reliable source for all Epiphone guitars, especially the Japanese made ones (as has been proved many a time on this forum), and the Matsumoku made thinlines usually have 7 digit serials( first digit year, second two month, and last four production number). The Matsumoku Epiphones carried serials from 75/6 up to 86/7, when the factory ceased production. You can only tell whether this Riviera is Japanese or Korean by it`s spec. The guitardaterproject, brings all the Jap ones up as Korean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 hmmm prob mate .Too ne honset .i wouldnt really give a **** about were a guitar comes from just about how it plays .obiviously you dont wanna get ripped off .bu And 83 EPI Riviera does cost big coin . this is noels from 1967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Gilbert, the Riviera that Adrien is on about, is exactly the same version that Noel and Bonehead used during the rise of Oasis, those were the Jap Matsumoku ones. Noels was Wine Red and Boneheads was Antique Sunburst (He still has it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 ah I Recall Noel Selling his i still have the serial that was on the back of the head stock .This item came up on ebay calming it was noels it had a letter from jason rhodes (noels tech ) .3114107 that was the serial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 ah I Recall Noel Selling his i still have the serial that was on the back of the head stock .This item came up on ebay calming it was noels it had a letter from jason rhodes (noels tech ) .3114107 that was the serial That serial is 87 higher than the Riviera Adrien mentioned in his first post, from the same month!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Ok thanks for the information so far... It is of course not just a point of where it comes from but I have to drive 300km to get this guitar so if it is another crappy korean or chinees guitar and I don't have that much time to waist ;-) + I have a Made in Japan Fender Telecaster (86) and the construction is way better than many US tele's and I hope it'll be the same with epi's... + the serial you mention as being the one from noel's jap epi is almost the same as mine so it should be a Jap I guess... concerning the 6 points you mentionned Frenchie (thx btw for sharing your knowledge ;-) ) it is difficult to say but anyway, here are 3 pics a got from the guy (btw I don't know if these means something but he claims he is selling his guitar because he has bought a Gibbie + he is also selling a '76 bassman so my guess is he knows what he says :-) ) hope you can tell me more about it with the pics : http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/Epi/Riviera-Front1.jpg http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/Epi/Riviera-Case.jpg http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/Epi/Riviera-Back1.jpg And concerning the price : Is it worth 500€ and is there a big difference with a dot (in terms of quality) please say YES ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Yes it is Matsumoku Japan( I can see the first 4 points I made from the photo`s)!!!! Go get it, they are really nice guitars, and enjoy. I think the price is fine, Obviously try and get it for as little as poss, but 500 Euro looks very fair to me. If I had the funds I`d get it! You`ll know you`ve done the right thing when you see and play it, beware though, they have lovely playing necks. And that one looks all original, and in very much, above average condition. Remember the only place it will say Japan on the guitar, is on the underside of the bridge. After all that, if you are still unsure whether it is Japanese or not, lift out one of the pickups, and look underneath. There you will find it marked MMK 61, the MMK stands for M atsu M o K u. the 61 is the type of pickup, similar to a Gibson PAF. Hope this all helps, and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 thats a fukin cracker mate id jump at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Thanks for the perfect help! (this is custom shop service ;-) ) A few questions left though : What about the stock pup's? are they ok or more than ok? i.e. : will I have to put Gibson's in it or are they as good as gibson's ? And are there other parts that need to be replaced like on a lot of epiphones (pots, tuners...) or is this Jap really built as well as US baby's ?? Concerning the price, the guy was first asking 650 but he is ok for 500...However, I will try to get it for 450 ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert_cfc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 hard to say wit out playin .but yea Putin gibson pick ups in it can help . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Thanks for the perfect help! (this is custom shop service ;-) ) A few questions left though : What about the stock pup's? are they ok or more than ok? i.e. : will I have to put Gibson's in it or are they as good as gibson's ? And are there other parts that need to be replaced like on a lot of epiphones (pots' date=' tuners...) or is this Jap really built as well as US baby's ?? Concerning the price, the guy was first asking 650 but he is ok for 500...However, I will try to get it for 450 ;-) [/quote'] Adrien, I have MMK 61 pickups in my 1982 Aria ProII TA-60, and I really like them, they are close to a Gibson PAF, and I feel better than the MMK 75`s that came in the Matsumoku Sheratons (Those could be too muddy for my taste). A lot depends on your amp, they work better with valve amps, and bear in mind the first Oasis albums were laden with that Riviera sound (those stock pickups sound pretty good to me). As for the pots and electronics, I have no problems with mine, and bear in mind these guitars are 25 plus years old now, in fact the pots on the Matsumoku archtops all have dust covers!(That`s a high end touch), and an excellent Taper (Servisol cures any crackles that I may get on the very odd occasion). The three way switch on my Matsumoku`s are of similar quality to the Switchcraft on my Lennon 65 re-issue. In all honesty I would leave the guitar as stock, all the harware is Gotoh anyway, so the quality shouldn`t be an issue. The build on the Matsumoku`s is of a comparable level to the Elitist`s in my view,( Five ply laminated Maple bodies, long tenon necks, and excellent Gotoh made Schaller type tuners with Kluson type buttons!) they were 60% hand built anyway, with a 1 and 11/16 width at the top nut, which incidently is bone,and not plastic!. It`s up to you at the end of the day, I would possibly upgrade the pickups at some point, but bear in mind a lot of MMK 61 equipped guitars of the early 80`s got rave reviews at the time, i.e. Westone Rainbow I and II, Westone Prestige models 150 and 250, Westone Session II, the Aria ProII Herb Ellis model and the Aria proII TA-60, all built by Matsumoku, why don`t you just try it for a while and see what you think. On the whole you would be getting a lot of guitar for your Euro`s, they are not quite up to the standard of a classic sixties Kalamazoo made Epiphone (no Nitro finish for example, or inside Kerfing), but they are good enough, and I love mine, and the one area where I think they do beat the originals, is in playability!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 That's a good answer to me! I'll be able to tell you tomorrow how the baby sounds, feels and looks... I phoned the guy and I'll spend my day driving tomorrow to get this guitar! Afterwards, I'll see what I do with it but it is my intention to leave it 100% original but if it does not sound good enough I will upgrade the pup's... Anyway, thank you very much for all the information and more news tomorrow ;-) Cheers, Adrien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Horrible news!! I woke up this morning : 20 cm of snow on the streets ==> I waited and waited and then finally phoned the guy to tell him I wouldn't come today... Answer : Someone else is comming this afternoon to try the guitar!! I think i'm screwed!! He'll call me back this evening but I think I can search for another one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 I just got very bad news : the guitar is sold!! I'm very pissed off but can't help it now... anyway thanks for your help! Do you maybe now some other similar guitars?? There is a Westone Rainbow 2 1983 for sale in chery red with gold hardware and the guy is living not too far away... what about this guitar?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I just got very bad news : the guitar is sold!! I'm very pissed off but can't help it now... anyway thanks for your help! Do you maybe now some other similar guitars?? There is a Westone Rainbow 2 1983 for sale in chery red with gold hardware and the guy is living not too far away... what about this guitar?? Adrien, I am sorry to hear about the loss of the Riviera, However the silver lining may be the Westone Rainbow II. Those are really fabulous guitars, Matsumoku`s very top of the line product(along with the Prestige 250 and Session II), this guitar has a three piece laminated Mahogany neck, Ebony fingerboard with large pearloid inlays, they play really well, and have the unusual PEQ (passive equalizer) tone pot`s, which are very useful. I suggest you go and give it a go, they are very good guitars. The build quality is as good as the Riviera anyway ( think Ibanez AS200, but cheaper, then you get the idea), and it has a few more tricks up it`s sleeve. Best of luck and let me know how you get on. P.S. How are you finding all these early 80`s classic`s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Adrien' date=' I am sorry to hear about the loss of the Riviera, However the silver lining may be the Westone Rainbow II. Those are really fabulous guitars, Matsumoku`s very top of the line product(along with the Prestige 250 and Session II), this guitar has a three piece laminated Mahogany neck, Ebony fingerboard with large pearloid inlays, they play really well, and have the unusual PEQ (passive equalizer) tone pot`s, which are very useful. I suggest you go and give it a go, they are very good guitars. The build quality is as good as the Riviera anyway, and it has a few more tricks up it`s sleeve. Best of luck and let me know how you get on. P.S. How are you finding all these early 80`s classic`s?[/quote'] Me too...If I knew someone else was on it too, I would have hired a pair of ski's!! however, I'm not just fixed on one brand or model, I'm just looking for a not too expensive and high quality (jap) ES 335 copy so I'm searching quite a bit on the internet! I'm a real tele freak and I think it's time for me to get something new... The guitar looks nice (not as nice as the Riviera although) and in very good condition. http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/Westone/Rainbow2.jpg I'm lucky to live in Belgium and there are quite a few websites in Belgium and in the Netherlands where you can post your stuff for sale, it's free and biddings are only there to give you an idea of the price so you take contact with the advertiser and I think this system is far better than e-bay! At the moment (just taking a quick look at that kind of guitars) I can find an Epi crestwood ET-278 MIJ, another crestwood '76, the rainbow 2 and a Aria Pro II LS-600. Also found a Aria Pro 2 TS 300, a lefty westone thunder 2 and a few other Aria's... If you are interested, let me know... How much do you think I should pay for the Rainbow?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Adrien, that is one of the early ones, which in my opinion look better than the later ones, that have that awful Eagle headed "W" logo. The 82/83 Westones are valued higher than the 84-88 ones, mainly I think because as production costs rose in Japan( mid to late 80`s), they cut corners by using lower quality wood. I would offer 450-550 Euro`s in line with the Riviera, and see how it goes, trust me you will not regret getting this guitar. If it`s not for you, I would be interested at a later date! To help you narrow down the field, I would say the best early 80`s Jap 335 clones, are, in no particular order, the Ibanez AS200/100/80 models. The Yamaha SA2200/2000 models. The Aria ProII TA-70/60 models( only made from 81-84). the Westone Rainbow`s I/II, and Tokai`s ES120/100`s. There is also the smaller bodied Ibanez AM 205/100 models(which are great,and came out 20 years before Gibsons ES339!!). And there are others, but most of those usually stayed out of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Adrien' date=' that is one of the early ones, which in my opinion look better than the later ones, that have that awful Eagle headed "W" logo. The 82/83 Westones are valued higher than the 84-88 ones, mainly I think because as production costs rose in Japan( mid to late 80`s), they cut corners by using lower quality wood. I would offer 450-550 Euro`s in line with the Riviera, and see how it goes, trust me you will not regret getting this guitar. If it`s not for you, I would be interested at a later date! To help you narrow down the field, I would say the best early 80`s Jap 335 clones, are, in no particular order, the Ibanez AS200/100/80 models. The Yamaha SA2200/2000 models. The Aria ProII TA-70/60 models( only made from 81-84). the Westone Rainbow`s I/II, and Tokai`s ES120/100`s. There is also the smaller bodied Ibanez AM 205/100 models(which are great,and came out 20 years before Gibsons ES339!!). And there are others, but most of those usually stayed out of Europe.[/quote'] Here are some more pics http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/Westone/ He claims it's a 1983 so that must be right...I contacted him for the serial and a possible test...I didn't talk too much about the price as another guy proposed him only 250€, I prefered to ask him how much he wanted...only negative point is that there is no case available but however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Adrien that guitar is somewhere between late 82 and late 83, because the model started in late 82, and the Eagle h/stock logo started in late 83, so he is right. The first three digits of the serial will confirm this, some examples 205= May 82, 306= June 83, get the picture. I have a Brown Westone Rainbow case for my Aria TA-60 (both the Rainbow and TA-60 are slightly smaller than a normal 335, and in fact are basically the same guitar, although the Rainbow II`s have the PEQ electronics). That Rainbow is in fabulous condition, and all original!! I could be tempted to swap one of my beloved Casino`s for that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrien Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Ok I'll check tis one out for sure! I hope to hear from the seller soon so I can go and test it... A casino is not really what I'm looking for but If a buy it and don't like it you'll get a special price ;-) And about your case : are you selling it? or do you know where I could eventually get one? or a new one that would fit? Something totally different : You seem to know a lot about Epi's and I've got an acoustic epi I bought for almost nothing a few years ago : label inside is not the original and no serial available but the guy told me it was made somewhere in the 80's (most likely in Korea). I can't find which model it is and I would like to know what it's worth... It's a nice guitar but I've seen a superb 1982 Ibanez hummingbird with piezo for a very nice price... you'll find the pics of my epi and the ibanez here : http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/ibanez/ Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Ok I'll check tis one out for sure! I hope to hear from the seller soon so I can go and test it... A casino is not really what I'm looking for but If a buy it and don't like it you'll get a special price ;-) And about your case : are you selling it? or do you know where I could eventually get one? or a new one that would fit? Something totally different : You seem to know a lot about Epi's and I've got an acoustic epi I bought for almost nothing a few years ago : label inside is not the original and no serial available but the guy told me it was made somewhere in the 80's (most likely in Korea). I can't find which model it is and I would like to know what it's worth... It's a nice guitar but I've seen a superb 1982 Ibanez hummingbird with piezo for a very nice price... you'll find the pics of my epi and the ibanez here : http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/elnationalquarterback/ibanez/ Cheers Adrien, the Westone case isn`t available at the moment, but if I found an alternative for the TA-60, I could let it go your way, and yes I would certainly be interested in the Rainbow. As for your acoustic, my main area of Knowledge is in Matsumoku made semi`s and solid bodies, and not the acoustic`s, there are others, namely Nelson who could help you there. But from the photo`s I would say Matsumoku made, from the 70`s, don`t know which model, probably one of the FT`s, the FT150BL had Maple back and sides, and worth I would guess between 150-250 Euro, depending on whether it is a solid top or not. Hope this helps, only the acoustic`s are not worth that much I`m afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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