60's B-45 12 string: help identify, pictures, no serial or logo!

[_dc]

My mother handed down her 60's Gibson B-45 12 string to me many years ago and I have always wondered what year it was made. When she acquired the guitar in the early 70's, it was already used, but in good condition. It still plays and sounds amazing, unlike any other guitar I've touched.

 

Here is what I know for certain, I hope someone here can help me fill in the blanks:

 

• 
   
  
• There is no logo on the headstock, but the diamond (two triangles) have "rounded" points.
  
• There is no serial number on the back of the headstock. Not even a "2" to indicate a factory second.
  
• There is no paper label inside the sound hole, only a faded blue ink stamp that reads "B-45 12" on the inside center bracing.
  
• It has the original trapeze tailpiece.
  
• It has square shoulders, and strap pins.
  
• It is a cherry burst finish, checked and worn appropriately for an instrument this age.
  

 

Please, help me identify the year, and explain how this amazing instrument lacks a serial number and logo!

 

 

 

[ksdaddy]

The top part of the headstock has been sawn off.

[_dc]

The top part of the headstock has been sawn off.

 

Why would someone saw off the top of the headstock? You are right though, my flat headstock is certainly not what they are supposed to look like, see this example:

 

http://www.jacksonsrareguitars.com/gibson-b45-12-string-acoustic-1966-p18943.html

 

Compare that to mine:

 

 

Also, is there any other way to identify the year if the serial on the back of the missing piece of headstock is gone?

[ksdaddy]

Not really. My best guess is around a '65 or '66. I'm basing that mainly on the shape of the bridge. Before '64 or so they had belly-up pin bridges. Around '66 they had fixed bridges like my '69 pictured below. For a short time they had fixed belly up bridges with trapeze tailpieces like yours. That was around 1965 but the dates are fuzzy.

 

[_dc]

Not really. My best guess is around a '65 or '66. I'm basing that mainly on the shape of the bridge. Before '64 or so they had belly-up pin bridges. Around '66 they had fixed bridges like my '69 pictured below. For a short time they had fixed belly up bridges with trapeze tailpieces like yours. That was around 1965 but the dates are fuzzy.

 

That is pretty helpful on getting the approximate year, thanks.

 

Why would someone cut the signature Gibson headstock shape flat? Did the original owner have some kind of Martin fetish? Maybe a really bad chip or crack required removing the Gibson figuring?

[ksdaddy]

Who knows? Maybe it didn't fit in the case....

 

A piece of mahogany and overlay (holly?) could be grafted onto the headstock. Then it would be a matter of finding a replica decal.

[fp]

1965, too bad about the headstock. Gibson did not use paper labels on these 12 strings until around 69 or the early 70's.

J45's and J50's also never had labels until later as well. Now SJ's and Country Westerns had labels, as did the Hummingbird and Dove.!

[drathbun]

Who knows? Maybe it didn't fit in the case....

 

That's not such a strange thing. Apparently, Gerry Marsden of Gerry and the Pacemakers, sawed the headstock off his Rickenbacker 360/12 OS so it would fit in a case. This was the third Rickenbacker 12 string guitar made. The first went to Suzi Arden, a Las Vegas performer and the second to George Harrison.

 

I can't find an image of Gerry that shows the headstock of the butchered guitar but there is one out there somewhere. Here he is with it:

 

 

Is it possible this B45/12 is a fake or Japanese copy? No label, no serial number, no Gibson sticker?

[_dc]

Is it possible this B45/12 is a fake or Japanese copy? No label, no serial number, no Gibson sticker?

 

Incidentally my mom wrote me back and told me a bit more about how she acquired the guitar. When she was a teenager taking lessons, her instructor offered it to her for $85.00, which was a lot of cash for a teenager back then but a seemingly amazing price now. At that time the guitar was nearly a decade old and had a "new head" which I interpret to mean a repaired headstock.

 

I've never seen another one in person to compare it to, however I'm pretty certain it is authentic Gibson. If you (or anyone else) can point out some identifying characteristics I will certainly look for them and post pictures.

[_dc]

1965, too bad about the headstock. Gibson did not use paper labels on these 12 strings until around 69 or the early 70's.

J45's and J50's also never had labels until later as well. Now SJ's and Country Westerns had labels, as did the Hummingbird and Dove.!

 

While the headstock revelation is kind of a shocker, this is how I've always known the guitar, so it doesn't reflect poorly on my sentimental value of the guitar. Obviously it would have a negative effect on it's resale value though. Regardless, I won't be selling this instrument as it is special to me and still quite the player.

 

As for the paper label, the center bracing strip of wood would make for an awkward positioning of the label itself. Perhaps later guitars do not have a center bracing that continues visually through the sound hole though.

[fp]

While the headstock revelation is kind of a shocker, this is how I've always known the guitar, so it doesn't reflect poorly on my sentimental value of the guitar. Obviously it would have a negative effect on it's resale value though. Regardless, I won't be selling this instrument as it is special to me and still quite the player.

 

As for the paper label, the center bracing strip of wood would make for an awkward positioning of the label itself. Perhaps later guitars do not have a center bracing that continues visually through the sound hole though.

 

 

Paper labels are placed over the back seem strip.

[ksdaddy]

Many Gibsons of that era (majority actually) didn't have any labels inside. The faded 'B45-12' rubber stamped on the center strip is typical of the era.

 

I have no doubt it's the real deal.

[SoonerBuckeye]

The bridge appears to be non-original as the ones from this period had the adjustable saddle (usually ebony) and the trapeze tail-piece. The diamonds in the headstock are rounded which would indicate a 1965 or early 1966. The diamonds became pointed sometime in 1966 or early 1967.

The 1963 thru early 1964's had the pin style belly up adjustable bridge (some with ceramic and some with ebony saddles). These early pin style bridge versions are usually very good sounding 12 strings, however, they were under-built (braced like a Hummingbird with 6 extra strings---often too heavy of a gauge) and the bridge tended to rotate toward the sound hole which in turn caused the top to distort between the bridge and the sound hole (cave in). It was one of these type Gibsons that Lightfoot had (has) as well as Leo Kottke in his early career. Lightfoot now plays two different B45-12's (one is the original 1963 cherryburst and the other is a modified (trapeze removed and pin style bridge added)later 1967 or so version. If you can find the Lightfoot LP Sundown, you will see the modified version cherryburst (notice the diamonds in the headstock (sharp) and the belly-down adjustable bridge). Complicated?? Yeah, but the bottom line is if you can find a pin style bridge B45-12 from 1963-1964 in good to excellent condition and you want a good sounding 12, buy it.

Bob