Struggling to ID this 335

[WezV]

OK, i am fairly sure this is genuine but cannot tie it up to a model or year that i know of. any help would be much appreciated. In particular the serial number does not fit with a format i know and the pot codes sugest a 2000 or later production date but i would not expect a yellow label

 

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/new/fullback.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/new/headfront.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/new/pickuproute.jpg

 

the pot code i can see is 407 0028 and everything appears to be original and untouched. Infact i would swear i am the first tech to see it as it was in quite a state

[Dynadude]

My first impression says fake. The shape of the neck tenon looks wrong in the last pic, and the wood color looks too bright.

 

I'm no expert, but that serial number on the headstock just doesn't look right. I've never seen a "Y" on a Gibson electric.

 

Have you got any background info on the guitar?

 

Edit~ After a little digging, it appears this could be an early 1960's block neck ES-335.

 

It looks like there is another label under the one pictured. I can make out some lettering, but not enought o make sense of. Have you noticed the other label?

[WezV]

yeah, i saw the other label - you can just about see through to it and it appears to be the same but missing the 'NHI' of the end of the model code

 

early 60's!!! nah, early 90's i could go with... its not that old and the tenon shape is consistent with CNC cut 335 neck... i think :?

 

the only info i was given was that they thought it was a 92 model because of the serial number (i told them that was not how the serial numbers read) and that it might have been made as a special by gibson for the japanese market (not sure if thats just baloney!!)

 

i had it down as a fake at first but if it is somebody has gone to a hell of a lot of trouble to get it spot on...

 

thats whyi am so confused by this guitar

 

thanks

 

wez

[Ken Rayba]

Hi, I'm going to add my 2 cents on this subject. From what I see, if that is a fake, it's a good one.

 

The "crown" on the headstock is consistent with a 60's model. In later years they moved it down below the 5th and 2nd string.

 

It has the correct "short pickguard" which was changed from the long pick guard in the 60's.

 

It has the correct "knob" (top hat) and Kluson tuners which are standard back then.

 

It has the "block inlays" consistent with a 60's model, and a stop tailpiece.

 

I can't tell what degree the neck angle is? By 66' the majority of ES 335's had a 14 degree angle, before 66', it was 17 degrees.

 

Regarding the finish, I have a 67 ES 330 and the finish is darker and has more grain than my ES 345 which I purchased new in the middle 70's. But I've seen picture of 60's models that were brighter finishes.

 

Regarding the pickups, the PAF pick up labels were no longer used after 62', and they started using S/N pickups.

 

I guess you need to take it to an expert and let them figure it out. I have a book on the Gibson ES 335, and according to the author, and the Gibson website regarding the S/N, the "Y" was used in 1953! That were I got most of my information that I have printed.

[WezV]

lol ! 1953!!! first ones were 58

 

I completely agree that its too good to be a fake - that was my gut instinct as well. Also having played and dismantled and repaired a lot of gibsons i can say this definately feels right.

 

I would go out on a limb and say its not older than 90's, So what i reckon is that sometime between 1990 and 2000 there was a 62/63 spec 335 made with PAF labelled repro pickups and a yellow label in the soundhole. possibly made as a short production run for a foreign distributor??

 

the guitar is very clean inside, but not cleaned... you can tell the difference and this obviously is not that old. It does have wear on the nickel pickups and hardware but the pickups are perfectly clean underneath and the PAF sticker is not worn or dirty at all. The finish is also in good condition and is not like a 50 year old nitro finish would be, no crazing or fading and not much sinking in. It did have a load of star stickers on it and a big glue run down the back but thats what i was asked to put right (as well as a fret level).

 

i will have to check neck angle later.

 

I know my 335's but i am stumped by this one! Its all correct for a 62/63 reissue 335 except the label and serial number

 

I even emailed gibson europe who were very helpfull up till the point where they didnt know either... they didnt say it was a fake though

 

 

cheers

 

wez

[335guy]

Yeah, as a 335 player for 40 yrs who has owned 4 various 335's plus a 345, it certainly looks right. Of course this is a newer instrument. The double label thing is puzzling. It appears the serial # changed from the 1st label to the 2cd? I suspect this is a fairly new guitar as block fret markers have just been re-introduced unless it's a red Larry C. And if I recall correctly, when Gibson went to the block fret markers on the 335-TDC, they came with a trapeze tailpiece. All mine did and had to be converted to a stud tailpiece. Plus, Gibson didn't start re-using the PAF sticker on the back of their humbuckers until more recently ( 90's?) Do you have the case? Could it be a custom shop model? Have you contacted Gibson USA with the serial # and model #? Seems they should be able to determine by those #'s if it's a genuine USA Gibson. If it isn't, it's a damn good fake!

[WezV]

i emailed at: service@gibson.com

 

the asked for photos of the full front and back and headstock front and back and i inclued the pickup cavity shot as well. When i sent those they emailed back asking for a picture of the label--- hard to photo but i got a good one and sent that. then they emailed back

 

The serial number doesn’t roll in our database. The serial number configuration doesn’t correspond to a guitar made in the 90’s.

 

We suggest you checking pots of the guitar. Pots have normally 7 digits where the 4yh and 5th correspond to the production year of the pots and eventually to the production year of the guitar.

 

i think that means gibson dont have a clue either.... i am sure they would say something if they thought it was fake

 

so i checked the volume pot and got the code 407 0028 which would make it 2000 or later... which makes it even stranger that they cant ID it

 

you are right that the labels are different, as far as i can tell the top one says ESDVRDNHI and the one underneath is just ESDVRD?????

 

 

The case is a black TKL hardcase with grey lining and the normal gibson logo on the front... no extra custom shop signs or anything like that

[WezV]

hmmm.... just had a closer look at the label (s), in particular at the serial numbers. the best i can tell is that the lower label says '12/200' and the upper label says 'YO1992-012'. now i must be getting desperate here because i started comparing the handwriting : and it appears that the 'YO1992' is in different handwriting to the '-012'

 

its a damn mystery, thats for sure!!!

[ES345]

WezV

 

Are you considering buying this and if so are getting some unbelievable fantastic deal. If not i would pass on it, all the serial number stuff, but the tuners on the bottom don't seem to be aligned and the (I can't remember the pic exactly) G string tuner seems to have been bumped and bent down. the tuner thing is enough for me to pass. i didn't look at your links, just the pics you posted here.

[Oringo]

I'm a big fan of MIJ guitars, Orvilles, Elitists and (gulp) early Squiers, so I thought I'd check my info to see if this 335 resembles anything that could have come out of the Terada or Matsumoko factories, maybe a home market model. Unfortunately, nothing matches up among documented known models or production runs.

Often posters asking for help from Gibson don't get a comprehensive answer unless they insist for a while. The first answers are usually just a quick check that anyone can do with data on the Gibson site. Keep trying! Maybe a special custum run? (012/200) Maybe made in the Czech Republic? Gibson had or has a factory there for the European market, but I don't know any details about it.

Maybe an original mid-late '60's that went back to Gibson for refurbishing around 2000 and got a new serial no?

[Troels]

It's not a 50s, 60s, 70s - that's easy to see on the body shape for the trained eye - and it's not an 80s or 90s either - probably quite new. The neck tenon is absolutely correct for a RI - and the PU routing looks correct as well for a RI ES-335.

 

The Model code on the label (the one we can read) says ESDURNH1... ES is obvious, DU... ???? hmmm (dot necks say DT here), R is the color - red maybe - but should say CH if it's a Cherry and the N stands for Nickel hardware (what it looks to be). NH1 is the code for a standard RI ES-335.

That means it's not a Custom Shop and it's made before 2006 (after that Gibson returned to orange or rather red labels). The the center block should have a cutaway below the bridge PU (can be seen thru the treble f-hole) and the headstock should be topped with a fiber cap - not holly wood as in the old days.

A picture of the truss rod nut routing at the headstock would be a fine thing.

 

012/200 is not a factory code. The factory hidden in the serial number. 012/200 means number 12 out of 200 made. I know that Gibson USA made a special edition for the Japanese market and those were block inlaid with old style tuners - could be one of those.

 

I've worked with Gibsons for 40 years - and never heard a single word about any Czech factory. Where is it located???

[WezV]

ES345 - It belongs to one of my friends, he got it at a nice price even if it was a fake (which i think we can say it is not). I am a guitar builder and he brought it to me because it was in a state. It had a run of super (CA) glue all the way down the back and was covered in small star shaped stickers it also had the bent tuner post, a few massive fret dents and wear from somebody who only knows 3 chords He had already removed the stickers when it came to me but the guitar was covered in the residue. Its all fixed up now though, playing like a dream and sounding beautiful

 

Oringo - i have played quite a few of the jap copies, some really excellent ones... but non quite have the level of detail of this. Gibson did have a UK distributor who occasionally got special runs for the Uk market???

 

Troels - I am not sure if the label code reads 'ESDYRNH1'. Before i thought it might be V, possibly tied with teh R as Vintage Red, not sure if i have ever heard the cherry referred to as that??? It does have the cutaway for the wiring below the bridge pickup and it does look to be a fibre cap, here is a pic, complete with a bit of muck and the usual lacquer cracks around the logo

 

 

I think what you say about the japanese market may confirm what my friend was told... not sure how it made it to the Uk though

 

Thanks for your help

 

wez

[Troels]

ES345 - It belongs to one of my friends' date=' he got it at a nice price even if it was a fake (which i think we can say it is not). I am a guitar builder and he brought it to me because it was in a state. It had a run of super (CA) glue all the way down the back and was covered in small star shaped stickers it also had the bent tuner post, a few massive fret dents and wear from somebody who only knows 3 chords He had already removed the stickers when it came to me but the guitar was covered in the residue. Its all fixed up now though, playing like a dream and sounding beautiful

 

Oringo - i have played quite a few of the jap copies, some really excellent ones... but non quite have the level of detail of this. Gibson did have a UK distributor who occasionally got special runs for the Uk market???

 

Troels - I am not sure if the label code reads 'ESD[b']Y[/b]RNH1'. Before i thought it might be V, possibly tied with teh R as Vintage Red, not sure if i have ever heard the cherry referred to as that??? It does have the cutaway for the wiring below the bridge pickup and it does look to be a fibre cap, here is a pic, complete with a bit of muck and the usual lacquer cracks around the logo

 

 

I think what you say about the japanese market may confirm what my friend was told... not sure how it made it to the Uk though

 

Thanks for your help

 

wez

¨

 

I made a close up of the serial number... it's written wrongly on the label. The impressed first digit is clearly a Y not a 4

I feel very convinced that it IS one of those made for Japan. In that case it's probably more valuable than an ordinaire one. Some of those made for the Japanese market actually have returned to both the USA and Europe in a small amount. I believe they were made for Guitar Center (but I'm not sure...) and they performed the export.

Looking at the details all over again including the tenon and the truss rod nut I can guarantee you that this is a genuine Gibson guitar. No doubt at all!

[johnny_uk]

The serial number looks like it is a FON (Factory Order Number).

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html#serial

 

"Factory Order Numbers with a Letter, 1952 to 1961.

This letter preceeds the batch number within the Factory Order Number (FON), and denotes the year of manufacturer. Remember, the batch number is the first 4 digits of the FON, followed by a 1 or 2 digit sequence number (within the batch). This letter should be before the FON batch number. This was used on archtop models (ink stamped inside treble F-hole) and on flat top models (ink stamped on the neck block), from 1952 to 1961: "

Year Letter

---- ------

1952 Z

1953 Y

1954 X

1955 W

1956 V

1957 U

1958 T

1959 S

1960 R

1961 Q

 

Do a search on Gibson FON's. They were fairly common up to 1961. I'm surprised Gibson did not recognise a FON. The mystery is the year though.

 

Hope that helps

 

Johnny

[Troels]

The serial number looks like it is a FON (Factory Order Number).

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html#serial

 

"Factory Order Numbers with a Letter' date=' 1952 to 1961.

This letter preceeds the batch number within the Factory Order Number (FON), and denotes the year of manufacturer. Remember, the batch number is the first 4 digits of the FON, followed by a 1 or 2 digit sequence number (within the batch). This letter should be before the FON batch number. This was used on archtop models (ink stamped inside treble F-hole) and on flat top models (ink stamped on the neck block), from 1952 to 1961: "

Year Letter

---- ------

1952 Z

1953 Y

1954 X

1955 W

1956 V

1957 U

1958 T

1959 S

1960 R

1961 Q

 

Do a search on Gibson FON's. They were fairly common up to 1961. I'm surprised Gibson did not recognise a FON. The mystery is the year though.

 

Hope that helps

 

Johnny[/quote']

 

It's not a FON. This sort of information is just confusing the subject. FONs were gone forever in mid 1961 and was stamped inside the guitar in the treble side f-hole - and consisting of a letter (as you show) and fours digits showing the batch number and then another two or one digit(s) showing the place within the batch. I have a few Gibsons with FONs and Gibson have no records on them. This guitar is not older than around ca. 2000 and it's probably one of those made particularly for the japanese market.

[Dynadude]

This just don't smell right. I'm still feeling like this is some type of fake, and maybe you are trying to get some idea of how hard this guitar would be to pass off as real.

 

Don't take it personal, but that's my take.

[WezV]

honestly dude, have a little faith! I can understand suspicion on the internet but i have tried to be honest with all the facts i have on this guitar and now that info is out in the open for any potential buyers to see - including the few people saying it could be fake!!

 

I aint selling this guitar and i dont think it will be for sale either. Just fixing it up for a friend. he is paying me a little money for the work i did but thats where my profit on this guitar ends... but i will freely admit i am a guitar geek, and i definately like a good mystery... i couldnt resist trying to find out a little more about it.

 

i make guitars... and if i could do replica's of gibsons this accurate (quirky gibson flaws and all!!) then i would have to charge a lot more than gibson do to make any money!!! There would be very little economic sense in doing such a replica to sell it off as a 2000 ish re-issue 335. which is why it confused me so much in the first place!

[Muddville]

I wouldn't have a clue what you're dealing with here, but the mystery aspect of this thread/axe has me quite intrigued. Having run into a few of my own brick walls while trying to ID guitars in the past, I can certainly identify with the situation. Good luck!

[johnny_uk]

 

It's not a FON. This sort of information is just confusing the subject. it's probably one of those made particularly for the japanese market.

 

 

Actually Troels, right or wrong, it was my opinion (with evidence and a link), which is just as valid as anyone else's. Perhaps you are confusing the subject ???

 

All the best

 

Johnny

[bobv]

For what it's worth, it does look like a recently manufactured guitar. I did not know that there were white labels used before 2006, but it does seem to make sense that "USA" would be emphasized in an export production run. If so, then just like the Guitar Center 1960 reissue Les Pauls, they will never be considered "Historic Reissues" since they're not necessarily accurate. Anyway the neck pickup rout and neck tenon look just like my '07 ES-339. And the underside of the pickups and the pickup wire look very shiny, not a vintage piece. The pickups probably had a really good "VOS" treatment, maybe even by Mr. Tom Murphy.

 

Gruhn's has a little information that you probably already knew: Small block inlays were used on the ES0335 from mid '62 to '81. The short pickguard has been used since '61.

 

I noticed press-fit bushings on the tuners, not the bolt bushings you'd find on regular production guitars. So if it was made in the past decade it was made to special specs, making it more likely that it was a retailer order or a run for export. Unfortunately since it's unusual, you'll need to press Gibson so you can get the provenance that your friend would need in order to sell it or insure it.

 

Thanks for sharing the mystery with us. Nice guitar, isn't it?

[WezV]

And the underside of the pickups and the pickup wire look very shiny' date=' not a vintage piece. The pickups probably had a really good "VOS" treatment, maybe even by Mr. Tom Murphy.

...

Thanks for sharing the mystery with us. Nice guitar, isn't it?[/quote']

 

the pickups are definately recent, as you say - they are very shiny on the bottom! - but its the wood that really tells me this isnt an old guitar. look into the best kept examples of old archtops and thats not what you see, wood ages!!. Thats why i have made a point of emphasizing that i do not believe its old as some of the other specs would suggest

 

i wondered if the pickups and hardware had been reliced or not, they do look beautifully aged and its possibly a little more consistent ageing than you would get naturally over less than 10 years... no matter how much your personal biology liked to eat through nickel

 

I am very happy with the work i have done on the guitar, once i got the frets level and set-up sorted it really came to life again.

 

although it did occur to me last night that if i was a fake i was trying to pass off as real i could easily have spent a few hours 'correcting' the serial number and label... fairly sure i could get it so 99% of gibson lovers would never tell the difference :o but thats not what i am about!!!

[Troels]

 

the pickups are definately recent' date=' as you say - they are very shiny on the bottom! - but its the wood that really tells me this isnt an old guitar. look into the best kept examples of old archtops and thats not what you see, wood ages!!. Thats why i have made a point of emphasizing that i do not believe its old as some of the other specs would suggest

 

i wondered if the pickups and hardware had been reliced or not, they do look beautifully aged and its possibly a little more consistent ageing than you would get naturally over less than 10 years... no matter how much your personal biology liked to eat through nickel

 

I am very happy with the work i have done on the guitar, once i got the frets level and set-up sorted it really came to life again.

 

although it did occur to me last night that if i was a fake i was trying to pass off as real i could easily have spent a few hours 'correcting' the serial number and label... fairly sure i could get it so 99% of gibson lovers would never tell the difference ;) but thats not what i am about!!!

[/quote']

 

Don't worry. It's NOT a fake. Block inlays was used as described - and on the special editions I mentioned. The overall shape of the rim coming from the horn dow towards the waist shows clearly that it's a Gibson and so does the body horn itself. It also shows that it's made AFTER 1981 when the RI was introduced - and other details shows it's later than 1990. It takes some time to learn how to see these things. The serial number IS NOT a FON - if so it would be rubber stamped inside the treble side f-hole and the guitar would have been made in Kalamazoo before mid 1961 (and it wasn't).

I believe that your grandmother knows more about Gibson guitars than Gibson Europe - I've asked them easy questions from time to time and NEVER had correct/usable answer in return. But try to ask them anyway about the Japanese Special Edition with serials starting with an Y.

 

BTW If you made a fake out of say a Burny or Tokai - would you glue in two labels in that one??? Wouldn't you say to yourself that it would put two much attention to origin? I would.

[WezV]

I have emailed gibson again to confirm what we are thinking

 

thanks for all the helpful responses

[WezV]

here is gibsons latest response

 

It seems serial number links to guitar which was part an special run for the Japanese Market. The “Y’” letter in the beginning was for Yamano our Distributor in Japan, but remember that was only an internal code.

 

i have emailed back to see if they can provide any more help with the exact year

 

so finally some firm confirmation from them that it is the genuine article

[WezV]

and a little more

 

Unfortunately, we can not confirm you the production year of the guitar, but we assume could be 2000 because of the pot codes.