JimR56
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Posts posted by JimR56
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On 12/20/2022 at 11:46 AM, jdgm said:
Paging @JimR56
![[cool]](//content.invisioncic.com/p286412/emoticons/default_msp_cool.gif "[cool]")
Well, I'm a little late. 😉
Wow, VERY nice guitar. These are quite rare, and were only in production for a short time. The value of something like this is pretty subjective, since they rarely come up for sale. The way my mind has always worked, I think this should be worth more than a similar standard production model of the same period such as a 1959 L4C acoustic, or an ES-175 with P-90's (the paf models are going to be boosted in value by those pickups). If it were mine, and I wanted to sell it, I would probably start it at $15K, and I wouldn't take less than $10K (I probably wouldn't take less than $12K, really). "Find another one!"
As a side-note, about 25 to 30 years ago, when I was hunting for a vintage Gibson with a CC pickup, I found one of these L4CES's (also a sunburst) listed for sale through a private seller. He sent me photos, and... the guitar was photographed on a rug very much like the one in the photos above. Coincidence? Maybe. Anyway, the price was a bit high for me at the time, and then I think the seller decided to keep it. But in 45 years of vintage guitar enthusiasm, I've only seen a handful of these ever come up for sale (most were sunburst, but I did see one or two blonde examples).
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Sorry for the very late reply here. Your number is not a serial number, but a factory order number (aka "FON"). The gap between the first three digits and the final two digits make this obvious. According to the info here (http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#serial), the year would be 1947.
Gibson Factory Order Numbers, 1942 to 1951.
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Serial numbers are seldon found on instruments made during WW2. But most (not all) have Factory Order Numbers (FON). These contain a four digit batch number stamped in ink, followed by a two digit sequence number written in red pencil (during WW2 only). After the war, the red pencil wasn't used (and on instruments made during the war, sometimes it's really hard to see the red penciled sequence number). Usually there is no more than 46 instruments (sequence numbers) per batch. Also no batch number with a "1" as the first digit was used during WW2. The FON is usually located on the neck block. The war-time list that follows is not definative but includes FONs that I have seen. Unfortunately I don't have every range of FON's during this period.
Year Factory Order Number ---- -------------------- 1941 G (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G). 1942 907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo. 1942 H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH 1943 Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model. 1944 Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON. 1945 1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON. 1946 n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner). 1947 700s to 1000s 1948 1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.) 1949 2000s 1950 3000s to 5000s 1951 6000s to 9000s
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Serial numbers are seldon found on instruments made during WW2. But most (not all) have Factory Order Numbers (FON). These contain a four digit batch number stamped in ink, followed by a two digit sequence number written in red pencil (during WW2 only). After the war, the red pencil wasn't used (and on instruments made during the war, sometimes it's really hard to see the red penciled sequence number). Usually there is no more than 46 instruments (sequence numbers) per batch. Also no batch number with a "1" as the first digit was used during WW2. The FON is usually located on the neck block. The war-time list that follows is not definative but includes FONs that I have seen. Unfortunately I don't have every range of FON's during this period.
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On 10/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Hype said:
Seems far too good to be true. But the neck binding does age and wear to a white. I have the NG-355 and they Murphy Lab’d it the same way…neck binding worn to almost white. Body binding left yellow.
The neck binding does not "wear to a white". It remains white (while the body binding turns yellow) because the neck binding never got coated in lacquer during the original finishing process. The yellowing of the body binding is due to the aging of the lacquer that coats it.
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On 10/25/2022 at 11:25 PM, Nic Atkins said:
Hey y'all we could use some help. We recently inherited a beautiful ES-125 with FON 1704 17. We are not sure on what the year would be? Any help is appreciated.
It would be best if you could post photos of the instrument, but the year is most likely 1948 (see this link, which was posted earlier in this discussion: Gibson serial numbers @ guitarhg.com
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Hi Gogui, your serial number is from a period in the 1960's when there was some confusion in Gibson's numbering system. So your number dates to either 1965 or 1968. You can go to http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#serial to see the lists of Gibson's various serial numbering systems over the years.
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On 1/23/2022 at 10:26 PM, CaseyC said:
Somebody in the past tore out most of the internal sticker.
This could be an indication that it had been stolen. Where did you get this guitar?
I believe that the serial number Y 6443 is 61 but the Y prefix would be 53 ? I dont know what the 1.2 is.
It's not a serial number. The number that's stamped beneath the treble F-hole like that is called a "factory order number" (aka "FON"). So, the numbers are not all that important, as the "Y" indicates 1953, as you correctly noted.
The tailpiece is a distinctive art deco style.
That's a standard L5 tailpiece, correct for 1953.
I also think that the (black) pickups were painted white at some point.
I also agree (strongly) that you should remove that pickguard before it does damage to the guitar (the old phenolic plastic is breaking down and will be off-gassing, which is usually a very bad thing).
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There are folks here who know more than I do about flat top Gibsons, but I think that the info you've gathered from your research is correct... a "banner logo" (only used circa 1943-1945) LG2 model. Have you tried shining a light inside the body and/or getting a small mirror inside? I think there ought to be a stamped number up near the neck block area. Although some of the black lacquer was removed around the headstock, at least it was done somewhat evenly. Nice looking specimen of a guitar. Congrats on the inheritance!
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I logged in just so that I could comment on this. I've been participating on this forum for a very long time, and I've rarely seen a more generous, thoughtful, and helpful (and accurate) post than this one by jdgm. Well done sir.
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This inlay is usually referred to as a "crown" inlay. If you look at the headstock inlay on an L5 or a Byrdland, you will see the "flower pot" design.
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Welcome. What "war time fon registers" are you referring to? Just curious. Some online sources seem useful, and others not so much. I've always relied heavily on this one (http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#serial), but no source is perfect- especially considering Gibson's inconsistent history with numbers and dating. Based on the site I've linked, the fon's you posted would seem to suggest 1938 to 1940, which in my opinion would tend to jibe with the style of the logo on your guitar. And I would actually suggest that it looks to be on the earlier side of that (I once owned a 1940 ES250, and the script logo was of the later, slightly thicker type than the style of your L50 logo (some info about logos here: https://www.allgoodguitars.com/2020/01/23/gibson-headstock-logo-in-pictures/). The tailpiece featuring a wooden cross piece would suggest that it dates to the early 1940's, but that could have been changed during the war.
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Interesting. I exchanged messages with the OP, and sure enough, the owner was someone with a lot of guitars and a lot of experience with them. He apparently was quite particular about neck sizes, and as already mentioned above, he wasn't shy about modifications. In this case, I would say that I've seen far worse in terms of aesthetic results.
By the way, and just as a footnote to all of this, I don't see anything to make me think that this guitar was necessarily refinished. Looks like a nice original 1968 Gibson sunburst finish. The "lines" in the surface of the finish are very common on vintage guitars (we refer to this as finish "checking").
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Just an FYI... this topic was posted in two places. The more updated discussion is located here:
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According to A.R. Duchossoir's book, 475 ES-125C's were produced between 1965 and 1970. He specifies that 87 were produced in 1965, but he doesn't list the totals for each year after that (the book's parameters cut off at that point).
The finish on your guitar absolutely appears to be original. Refins- especially sunbursts- are almost never able to be duplicated to that level of quality of color and shading.
Congratulations on finding a pretty rare Gibson beauty!
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Thanks for the photos. Beautiful specimen!
I think there are a couple of things that point to the later production date. First, that guitar looks completely unmolested, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's all original. With that in mind, that "reflector cap" style of vol and tone knob did not yet exist in 1954, and although they had been replaced by a different knob design on many models by 1967, I've seen them on ETG-150's into the latter 60's. I don't know why that is, but as you noted, tenor guitars kind of march to their own drum, and that's what I've observed (here's a 1969 example I found online: https://www.creamcitymusic.com/vintage-1969-gibson-etg-150-tenor-archtop-electric-guitar-sunburst-finish/). Also, I think that the tuner buttons might have yellowed far more (or disintegrated) on a 1954 example, and you would very likely have more checking in the finish on a 50's example. These may be sort of circumstantial factors, but taken together I think they are fairly good evidence.
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One thing I forgot... if you can, please try to post a photo of the label, or describe it in more detail. More photos in general might be helpful also.
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Mwaidelich, I hope you're still here. Having been a member here for a long time, I have a great deal of respect for jdgm, but I'm not so sure about his take on this one. At first glance, there are things that seem puzzling (as mentioned), but I'm seeing too much that looks "right" for me to conclude that this couldn't be a genuine Gibson L4.
The first thing we need to consider is that although the L4CES eventually became a standardized model in later decades, it was not a regular production model back in Gibson's golden era (prior to 1970). In A.R. Duchossoir's "Gibson Electrics", the "model" is listed as sort of a footnote and the end of the section covering the ES-175 and ES-295 models, which of course have similar construction features. No production totals are available for electric L4's from that period, but it's safe to assume that they're pretty uncommon if not rare. Also, it's notable that as a non-standard model, the electric L4's that do exist tend to have been custom orders, sometimes with appointments from other models. In this case, L5-style fretboard inlays and an ES-175-style tailpiece. The fact that the f-holes are bound is also curious, but not necessarily a red flag for me. I've seen this done before on custom guitars.
The thing that stands out most here is the 22-fret neck, and the resulting short-scale appearance (like a Byrdland), with the neck pickup being positioned closer to the bridge pickup than would be standard on a full-scale example of an L4. To me, with so many other things looking right, I get the impression that this guitar was either a custom order or an aftermarket customization. This could be an explanation for the odd shape of the headstock.
With regard to what looks "right"... I'm struck by first by the placement of the vol/tone knobs. The asymmetry that was created by Gibson's placement of the volume knob for the neck pickup (slightly inset toward the bridge) is a subtle thing that I would rarely expect to see on a faked Gibson. A lot of Gibson aficionados even seem to overlook this. The fact that this guitar's top looks like a legit spruce grain is another thing that a faker might not have used. The tailpiece looks like a legit vintage Gibson part, and even if it's not "correct" for an L4, again, it wasn't a regular production model. An ES-175 zigzag tailpiece (which some people seemed to love), used on a "sister" model certainly lends an air of credibility for me. Would a faker have even thought of something like this? I doubt it. The whole body of this guitar (including all of the parts, with the possible exception of the pickguard) basically looks legit to me. The body shape, and the cutaway both pass the eye test for me, and these things are not easy to fake. The pickguard would have needed to be somewhat custom anyway, due to the location of the neck pickup and the need to cut the guard out in custom fashion, so I'm not going to take a lot of points off for it not being an authentic Gibson part. Overall, this guitar just strikes me as more likely being a custom (or modified) Gibson than a fake. It almost seems too sophisticated to be a fake.
So... I'm just offering these thoughts for whatever they might be worth. I admit that I could just be grasping at straws here. It's not easy to examine this based on one photo. If I were you, I would try to take the guitar to a really knowledgeable person for an in-hand inspection, or send photos to a dealer who has expertise with vintage Gibson archtops.
In conclusion, I would just add that I can't help but be curious about your brother in law, Mwaidelich. If this was actually a custom order, and if he was the person who ordered it, he must have been a pretty advanced guitar enthusiast. Did he own other guitars? Other Gibsons? Other archtops? If he had friends or fellow musicians who might still be able to be contacted, this might help to clear things up.
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You've researched it quite well (although I always try to refer people to this site for reference with models and dating: http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#serial), and I tend to think that your gut feeling is correct. It might of course be helpful if you could post some photos of the instrument. Pot codes are indeed often useful in these types of situations, but they can sometimes be difficult to access.
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As the seller's description states, those fretboard inlays are usually referred to as "trapezoid" inlays, not crown inlays (that term is used for another inlay, so it's confusing to refer to the trapezoids as crowns). Trapezoids were used on 125's until the late 1940's, when they started using dot inlays on that model.
The so-called "crown" inlay is a common headstock inlay. It's what you see on the headstock of many Gibson intermediate grade models (ES 300, 350, ES5, 175, 295, 335, 345; L4, L7; Kessel Regular...)
Gibson "Crown" headstock inlay
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Also, my understanding is that the modern "Gibson" head logo on this ES-125 didn't appear until 1947. But the transition from the script logo to the modern logo has always been slightly blurry, so I suppose 1946 is possible.
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Here's a real one ("Regular" model, as opposed to "Custom" model). Look carefully at every detail.
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That is not a Gibson, it's a copy. And with a Gibson label (and headstock logo?... I can't see it very clearly in your photo), I would call it a fake. Dirty business here. If you bought it thinking it was a Gibson, you really need to educate yourself before buying any more Gibsons. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this one is really obvious. A bolt-on neck (!) is the most obvious red flag, but if you know Gibsons and if you know how this Gibson model is supposed to look, nothing on this guitar is "right".
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Nothing up to 9999 9 would really shock me. Gibson's numbering systems were anything but consistent and perfect. Also, I've seen plenty of cases where employees forgot their coffee. 😉
I was actually hoping to see a photo of the whole guitar, to see the logo, the pickup, the control knobs, etc etc, but again, I think you're practically there when it comes to dating it. Hope it's a fine player!
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It would be best if you could post some photos (or at least one photo) of the guitar. You're right about the probability of 1951 for that FON, especially with the space between the 4th and 5th digit (and if the number is stamped inside the back of the body)... but since 125's were produced for many years beyond that, I'm wondering whether we might possibly be dealing with a serial number here, and not a FON. I'm just basing that on helping inexperienced folks here over the years, but you seem to have done your homework, so 1951 seems likely in this case.
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I think you are correct that it is an EH-500 Skylark. The serial number suggests 1961 (first digit being a "1"). The control knobs and the tolex case also seem right for 1961.
As far as the value, I would search for comparable items on ebay, Reverb.com, and Gbase. I would also browse other forums such as this one: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/index.php
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Sorry for the delayed reply, Dirk. You should inform the seller that the table they refer to is for dating 1952-1961 solid body models only. If you follow the link I provided above (http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#serial), and read through it, you will find this information and much much more about Gibson's serial number (and FON) history. The webpage is quite thorough and informative, and anyone who is reading this ought to bookmark that page for future reference. An ES-125 is not a solid body guitar, and thus the seller was wrong to refer you to the table they attached.
![[cool]](http://content.invisioncic.com/p286412/emoticons/default_msp_cool.gif "[cool]")
Serial Number and Date for ES-125
in Vintage Corner
Posted · Edited by JimR56
From the reference webpage I've linked here (above) several times:
Gibson Factory Order Numbers, 1942 to 1951.
Year Factory Order Number ---- -------------------- 1941 G (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G). 1942 907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo. 1942 H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH 1943 Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model. 1944 Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON. 1945 1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON. 1946 n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner). 1947 700s to 1000s 1948 1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.) 1949 2000s 1950 3000s to 5000s 1951 6000s to 9000s