Can someone help dating this 335

[PeteAnderson]

Hi there - a friend of mine recently sadly lost her brother who left her and her sisters a number of guitars including a couple of nice Gibsons. One is a black 335 (picture links below) which is listed on the receipt as 1989 but I suspect is much older judging by the state of shrinkage to the Kluson tuners. Serial number is A30648. It's ebony but may have been refinished as there's evidence of a modification just behind the bridge. Difficult to see in the photographs but there is a slightly raised rectangular section with two slightly raised circles to each side just behind the bridge - would this be evidence of a Bigsby being there at some time or simply that the bridge has been moved (I can't think of any other reason why it might have been).

Wondered if anyone might be able to give any idea of value. The receipt says the guitar was purchased in early 1990 for £1000. Posted details of the other guitar on the LP forum.

Thanks for any thoughts. Peter. Hope these pics are viewable. Sorry can't remember how to make them visible in the post.

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/PeteAnderson390/?action=view&current=PC131904.jpg

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/PeteAnderson390/?action=view&current=PC131905.jpg

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/PeteAnderson390/?action=view&current=PC131906.jpg

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/PeteAnderson390/?action=view&current=PC131907.jpg

[PeteAnderson]

Well as far as I can see from the Gibson site, the 335 is most likely from 1959 which is interesting to say the least! Site says 1958 numbers end at A 28880 and 1959 end at A 32285. Can anyone confirm or give an opinion about value for insurance purposes?

[Troels]

I think it begans its life as a Gibson semi hollow EB-2 bass guitar - due to the plugged hole from the bass bridge and the use of wrong wires inside the guitar (can be seen thru the f-hole).

The toggle switch is in a slightly wrong location.

 

The bass neck is gone - and it's renecked with a guitar neck - but unfortunately the machine heads is placed in the wrong position on the peghead - they are too close to the edge.

It's NOT a 1958 - ES semis did not have the pointed body horns in 1958 (the year of Mickey Mouse ears on ES 335s). It can be everything from 1963 and until they stopped producing EB-2.

 

Having another look maybe I'm not so sure about my own theory... even I've seen these transformations a couple of times before. Anyway there's a pic here: http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/931/683364.JPG

[PeteAnderson]

Troels - many thanks for the suggestions re possible origins of the '335'. Presumably if the theory stands up then the orange identification label that specifies that it's a 335 and carries the 1959 serial number would just have been pasted in the EB2 body from another guitar? Also it was definitely sold as and insured as a 335 when it was purchased by my friends' brother in 1990, although of course he and the supplier may just have been going from what it said on the label.

[Troels]

Yes I can see that what you mean about the label. And - it can simply be a moved tail piece (even it's hard to tell why it should be moved and even the plugged holes match the post for the badass bass bridge) still it could still be an EB-2 body for instance rebuild by Gibson - and supplied with a new orange label. I've seen a sunburst changed like that - and (except if the photographic angle is cheating) the toggle switch is in a wrong location.

 

Does it have an impressed stamp saying "used" somewhere? (Gibson used such a stamp for years when guitars was replaced under the guarantee - the damaged guitars taken in in return was repaired and sold again later).

 

Are there any other plugged holes in the top - in the pot area for instance?

[PeteAnderson]

Hi Troels - I'm going to have to have a second much closer look. Only had half an hour or so last weekend and while I knew they were interesting guitars I didn't realise quite how interesting. It now looks very likely that the Strat is indeed a genuine pre-1960 example, most likely a 56 and in remarkable condition, so my friend's brother obviously knew a decent guitar when he saw one. I certainly didn't see any 'used' stamp on the 335. The refinish was immediately apparent because of the moved tailpiece. Wondering if there would be signs of filled screw holes near the rear strap button if a Bigsby had been removed. None of my guitars have one so can't check where the screws might have been. I emailed Gibson with the serial number to see if they could supply any information from their daylog but not heard anything. Was reading a book recently which said the daylog covering 1959 Les Pauls had gone missing so not sure if that would affect how much information they have about other models from that era. Haven't heard anything back yet anyway. Thanks again. Peter

[5965]

These comments are from your thread down below; I suspect you may have seen it, but I'm not sure.

 

 

Although I'm not that familiar with the details, I tend to agree that the neck looks incorrect for some reason, and the tuners are off. One possibility would be that the guitar was built up from other parts; the other would be that it was torn down for them. I would have expected the wiring visible in the f-hole to be shielded, and it seems likely that whatever electronics originally in the body have been replaced.

 

Nevertheless, some of the parts (tuners, for example) might be valuable.

 

The only way to tell would be to inspect them individually. You might be able to get an inspection mirror in the f-hole to look at pots dates, for example, and the pickups would have to be pulled.

 

Search gbase for pictures of similar guitars and the internals, and post at the les paul forum dot com. That's probably the real enthusiast hangout. No offense intended to anyone.

 

Don't know if Gibson can tell you what the s/n started life as. Some companies can and will.

[PeteAnderson]

Thanks 5965 - seems like an odd one this one. Funny you mention the tuners because while presumably original or at least of the period, they are obviously very shrunken, as might be expected, but also not fantastically functional. Not sure whether they could be reconditioned to make them more so. Thanks again Peter

[5965]

Thanks 5965 - seems like an odd one this one. Funny you mention the tuners because while presumably original or at least of the period' date=' they are obviously very shrunken, as might be expected, but also not fantastically functional. Not sure whether they could be reconditioned to make them more so. Thanks again Peter[/quote']

 

It's certainly interesting, and I'd love to see it in person. The thing about the tuners is that even though they are unattractive and perhaps functioning at less than full capacity, to someone who doesn't have them on or with his otherwise original guitar (or who has one or more that work even more poorly), they're valuable.

 

And they can always simply put good replacements on the guitar and leave the 'originals' in the case. That's a lot better than an otherwise vintage guitar that has just new tuners. Psychologically, anyway. Parts do wear out.

 

Pretty much everything mechanical can be reconditioned, and I may have seen people putting new internals in old tuner cases. Not sure about that, but the weak spot may be the plastic knobs.

 

It's not just the tuners, though. The pots, switch and even switch tip might be important and worth more than one might expect. Since there appears to be at least part of one older guitar involved, any of the parts might be vintage and valuable. Even good recent pickups might be useful. Unlike some other guitars, I'm not sure how important the wood alone might be, however.

 

All of this is pretty standard stuff Gibson-wise, so anybody who's followed the guitars would know. It's not like some other guitars...

[5965]

Pete, I should have mentioned that using a black light source will be revealing in terms of a guitar's finish, damage, repairs and modifications. I would expect that anybody seriously into that sort of thing would have one (and if they didn't, I'd wonder about how valuable their opinion was). The kind that antique dealers use is a bit expensive, but if you wanted to experiment or take a look, there are or were inexpensive fluorescent-style tube versions complete with fixture that were carried by novelty shops, head shops or stores that had black light posters. Just take one in a dark room with the guitar.

[5965]

Pete, I just saw the post elsewhere recommending a certain dealer and evaluating guitars by photograph.

 

The people are trying to be helpful, but based on my personal experience and knowledge (of vintage and the vintage business, not as a disgruntled customer), I would avoid that dealer on vintage matters. New stuff is another matter, but it's available for less elsewhere.

 

While photographs are ok for some general issues, they really aren't adequate for something of value that's easy to counterfeit. I would never take or pay for an appraisal based on them- it's just easy money for the dealer performing it. The appraisals use words like 'the appearance is consistent with...' or something equally non-committal and legally worthless. I suggested them in another post from the standpoint of documenting a real inspection for sale purposes and preventing the necessity to re-inspect the guitar (and the possibility of damage) prior to sale.

 

I don't mean to rain on the parade, and I know that doing something in person is difficult and time-consuming. I know people I'd trust in the US, but that won't help in your case. There was a guy at Coda Music that was sharp, but I don't know if his experience extended to vintage or if he's even still there. The problem with recommendations is that most people define 'expert' or someone 'good on vintage' as someone who knows more than they do. In many cases, that's nowhere near good enough.

 

Most of the people that were really sharp on vintage left the internet years ago. They just got tired of being flamed. The only exception I know of is a good Les Paul forum that also covers other models with sharp people, but that's about it. Fender-wise, it's pretty much a lost cause.

[PeteAnderson]

Thanks for all the suggestions 5965 - very useful. Had a second closer look at the '335' yesterday and I suspect Troels' theory is spot on. There are filled holes where the pots have been moved and also behind the bridge as previously noted. The model number on the label is written in pencil or perhaps even crayon and appears to have been changed. The serial number is printed however so suggests perhaps that was a '59 EB body. There is the odd ding on the back of the guitar and there doesn't appear to be any evidence of another colour beneath the black - so either the body was stripped before refinishing or perhaps started life with a natural finish. So seems it is indeed something of a mongrel but is actually really nice to play. Struggling, however, to advise my friend what sort of value to place on it or indeed how to go about getting a proper valuation. I emailed details to Charlie Chandlers but haven't heard back as yet. Someone else mentioned a guy called Steve Smith here in the UK - anyone aware of him/his reputation? Thanks again Peter. P.S. Also opened up the Fender Strat and that too looks like not being as simple as hoped - details posted on the Fender Forum site under 'Is This Strat Really What I think It is'.

[5965]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with any of those names, and I can't make any recommendations in that regard. That's also a very difficult task with this guitar.

 

In order to put an accurate value on it, it would be necessary to identify all the electronics and the hardware. That would require the pickups to be removed and the other bits and pieces identified. Some original pickups are extremely valuable, and while it's unlikely in the extreme that they are old, they may be recent models that are sought after. Similarly, as with the Fender, you never know where original parts may end up by accident.

 

It's hard to know what value to place on the wood since even though it's not what it appears to be, someone might have a use for the body, provided the neck joint hasn't been damaged. Any neck that works is useful to somebody, although reversing the modification to original spec (if it's an original Gibson neck) might be difficult or impossible. Guitars in worse states have been salvaged or used to complete other partial guitars.

 

Given the nature of this guitar, I rather suspected the other would turn out the same way, but that doesn't mean any of the tiniest parts, screws, even, might not be valuable. That's why I suggested checking all the parts closely in the other thread. Good luck, and have a happy holiday season.

 

BTW, for some of the detail pics, you're inside the close focusing capability of the camera. If you take a high resolution photo from further back, it may be possible to blow up the pics and get the details you want.

[primal1]

PeteAnderson, et al,

 

Sorry to jump in so late, but maybe the following can help wrap part of the mystery of your '335'... Oh yeah, sorry about the long length of this post, but wanted to help and didn't know where to cut the feedback...

 

I have a Gibson EB2-DC, serial number 408356, in I believe the early 1966 range (I purchased it new in 1967 and it has not left my hands since, so I can guarantee it is 100% original and genuine). I would agree it appears that your 335 has an EB2-type body, and the patched area appears to be in the approximate location of the bridge on my guitar.

 

By the way, don't assume that a hand-written serial number is not the real thing (whether in pencil, "crayon," or ball point - not sure what is used, but is probably whatever was handy at that moment in time), my EB2-DC have one inside the body, and I've seen plenty of ohters done the same way (plus I have the same serial number "stamped" into the wood on the back side of the head stock at the very end of the head stock).

 

Differences that are really noticeable to me are:

 

a. a noticeably shorter pick-guard, proportional to a much closer location of the two pickups on the 335 versus the EB2-D;

b. a noticeably different placement of the knobs and single switch;

c. significantly different knob design and material;

d. the "wood" certainly appears to be the same (the basic body shape and size).

 

A wild guess might be that this guitar started life as the single-pickup EB2, which may explain the different location of knobs, where the single-pickup EB2 has fewer knobs than the dual pickup EB2, thus may locate them differently. When this guitar therefore may have morphed from single-pickup bass to dual-pickup six-string, and the additional knobs may have just been worked around the existing holes for the bass knobs. Unfortunately, I don't have a readily available reference to a vintage EB2 single, so I'm just taking a wild guess - I claim no expertise other than being able to look at my own guitar for comparison to the pictures you supplied.

 

I've uploaded a dozen shots of my guitar, many taken in close-up for detail. Unfortunately, this obviously (to me at least) introduced perspective and lens distortion in these photos, so I urge that be kept in mind when doing photo comparisons - my EB2-DC really looks better in the flesh so to speak, without these camera-induced "uglies." However, I did want to get in close to get as much detail as possible to help in the identification process.

 

Following are links and brief explanations of each of the dozen photos of my 1966 Gibson EB2-DC. I hope this helps. Good luck, and Happy New Year to all!

 

1. - Front body, looking straight down;

2. - Front body, slight angle view;

3. - Handwritten serial number "408356" (1966);

4. - Infrared shot of serial number (to try to take without the flash-induced image blow-out) - looks like written in ballpoint pen;

5. - Front body, slight angle, "hand rest bridge" in place over back pickup;

6. - Back body, showing "non-Mickey Mouse ear" shape;

7. - Front body, full length;

8. - Front body, can see wires - no colorful plastic insulation here;

9. - Back body, full length - looking towards head stock (demonstrates perspective and lens distortion);

10. - Back body, full length - from head stock towards back body (demonstrates perspective and lens distortion);

11. - Back of head stock - note serial number stamped (embossed) into wood - same as handwritten inside body;

12. - Front of head stock.

[spitball]

I agree with the opinion that the neck is probably newer than the body. The inlays on the headstock are not from the 50's or 60's, they are at least from the 70's, if not the 80's. Given the lack of a volute, I would guess the neck is most likely from the 1980's. The shape of the body (horns and f-holes) does look more like the late 60's to me. Then you have the old label, tuners and possibly old knobs and switch tip. I wonder if parts from more than two guitars came together here.

 

Have you pulled the pickups out to inspect them, and to see the what's exposed in the routing holes (including the tenon joint)?

 

I can't imagine that the monetary value is very great, given all the modifications. But it could still be a great guitar to play.

[MReynolds]

Sorry I don't agree with the EB2 theory. For one you have an extra toggle switch on the front, so a patched hole would be visible with black light. Plus the differnce on sizes of your pickups would have required someone to do some pretty extensive mods to get it back to normal. I think the holes back near the bridge could be better explained as someones attempt to either use a Bigsby trem or some other type of bar back there.

 

Pete you could always email George Gruhn guitars. Go to their site at Gruhn Guitars

 

They are one of the foremost experts at grading and judging guitars. They prefer to actually look at the guitars, but they may be able to get some info for you if you can get them extensive pictures. Give it a shot anyway.

 

One other thing...about the "Mickey Mouse ears"...the 1964's had a more pointed horn shape. Check out this site as well: http://www.provide.net/~cfh/es335.html

 

Sorry have to add one more item...about the "colorful wiring harness". Check out this site where some guy does a rewire of an ES-335...sure looks a bit colorful to me: http://www.kevinyates.com/ES_335_re-wire/large-8.html

[spitball]

I also think a peek at the neck pickup rout (and the pickup itself), will give some clues.