fubomusica Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Hallo, I am writing from Italy so first of all excuse me for my bad English .... I am looking to sell a James Goodall TROM to buy a Gibson 175. I have to decide if to buy an ES 175 D (1974) that the only one owner played for 35 years he was a musician who played guitar for a big and important orchestra for the Italian Television and obviously the guitar is not mint or ner mint but it has no structural damage it was only played very much. The other guitar I can buy is a 175 Charlie Christian and it is in excellent condition and it was built in 1978. I think that the 175 D is more flexible than the CC but the CC is in mint condition. What do you think about an old guitar ? Do you think it has to be like new or you prefere some defects but that it has an important story ? .... this second is my idea because I love that my guitar has a story to tell me ... Am I wrong ? Am I very strange ? Another question ..... which kind of pick up was used during the 1974 on the Gibson ES 175D ? Many thank for your opinions which can help me to take a good decision. Regards Fulvio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 I would choose the "D" for the exact reason you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Larry has it - and he is THE Gibson forum archtop man. I agree. I have a one-pickup Eastman copy that is very nice for "jazz," but not as versatile as my old middle 1970s near-perfect "copy" by Ibanez of the two pickup model. I love that guitar. The two pickup model can sing any song with many voices. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwocky Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 One has a pair of humbuckers, possibly T-Tops. The other has a single neck single-coil pickup re-creation of the bar pickup known as the Charlie Christian. One has a mahogany neck. The other has a maple neck. They are really quite different ES-175s. The only thing they have in common is the model name and body form. One thing to watch out for with a guitar that has been played a lot is the neck angle, arch of the top, and quality of the frets. It is very likely to require a fresh new set of frets. Check that it does NOT require a neck reset. Also, ES-175s are notorious for the arch of the top collapsing because the parallel braces are kerfed, not carved, to fit under the top, and sometimes break if the kerfs are cut too deeply. It is a cost-saving measure. So, take a small camera probe and scope out the braces under the top. You got to play them to know the one you prefer. The ES-175 CC is a one-trick pony but it is a good trick; if you like that kind of sound, it could be all that you need. The 3-piece maple neck also gives it a different tonal character, a slightly brighter one. If you like Barney Kessel with his ES-350 kitted out with the Charlie Christian pup or Kenny Burrell, and of course, the great Charlie Christian, all of whom used the Charlie Christian-style pickup, this may be the pickup for you. Being single coil, it picks up hum. You gotta to factor that in. Only about 478 ES-175CCs were made between 1978 and 1979, if Wikipaedia is to be believed. The last new ones were shipped in 1981. There is a member here, Jimmy, who had an ES-175CC in blonde that he thought was a piece of turd. If you search Youtube for Oliver of Orange Sunday, you will find a few good demos of his 1978 ES-175CC. Both ES-175s are from the Norlin era of Gibson's history. They are noted to be heavily built and not too acoustic sounding i.e. some people find them dead and liveless. If the electrified voice is all that matters to you, they should be hunky-dory. My 2 cents is that the ES-175D would be the more versatile axe if you could only have one axe. The ES-175CC is kind of an esoteric axe. Flatwound strings, straight into the tube amp with mild tube reverb, straightahead jazz. You either bond with it or find it limiting. I like it into a simple cathode-biased Fender "tweed" amp like the 5e3. I have an ES-150 Charlie Christian Reissue and a Super 400 Charlie Christian so you can tell that I like the Charlie Christian pickup a lot. I really dig the Charlie Christian pickup. (I like it so much I said it twice.) Since you are in Italy, look up Daniel Slaman on Youtube. Daniel makes archtops kitted out with Jason Lollar or CC Pickup UK Charlie Christian pickups, inspired by the pre-war Gibson ES-150 and ES-250. See whether the sound catches your ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl51 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I'm the guy that had that ES-175CC years ago. It was at the NAMM show at that time in 1979......bought it at D J's Rock and Roll in Cicero,Illinois in 1979...... and was one of the very few natural finish 175CC's ever made by Gibson at that time. That said I will again say that the guitar was simply one 'dead' sounding instrument. The CC pickup that was on the guitar was in no way comparable to the CC pickup that was on an original ES-150 of say 1939 for example as I've played those guitars and can attest to the sound. The CC pickup that Gibson made for a short time period in the late 1970's was IMHO more of a cosmetic thing than anything else............jim in Maine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl51 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I was just thinking about that ES-175CC and can remember besides the incredibly dead sound that the guitar had were also the ugly chrome tuners that it had as well as those tophat knobs that Gibson used in the late 70's that looked like they came off of a Fender amp...........little things but when I look at the single pickup 175 that I got a couple of years ago Gibson came a long way from where they were when it was Norlin owned.............jim in Maine+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwocky Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hi Jimmy, thanks for piping in. Your feedback is valuable because you owned one from that era. I don't know if Gibson changed anything in the Charlie Christian pickup; my Gibson ES-150CC and Super 400CC are from Y2000. They are nothing like the pre-war original but they are decent sounding...to my ears. Time may also have aged the magnets in the CC pickup since 1978 so they may sound more "mature" today than they did back then. Oliver of Orange Sunday gets a pretty nice tone to my ears out of his 1978 ES-175CC. My own gut feel tells me that a solid spruce top may help to bring out the best in the CC pickup. Certainly, the nicest sounds I have heard from the CC pickup in all its incarnations came from archtop guitars with solid spruce tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnappi Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Here's my take and I think you already agree with it. While I do not typically use the bridge pup alone, I do use it quite a bit with the neck pup. I roll the volume on the bridge pup down a bit and it gives me a fantastic tone not available with the neck pup alone. I can also use the BP's tone control with both pups to add more flexibility. The claim that a single pup guitar is livelier in the body tone may be true, but I haven't heard one I liked enough to give up the flexibility of two pups. Oh your English is fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greentone Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Are you going to play jazz? If so, a neck pickup is what you need. One pickup ES175s are great jazz guitars. I played three 175CCs. The most recent one I had for several months but didn't keep. None of them sounded dead, at all. In no way did they sound like a ES150 with the old cobalt bar magnets ("Charlie Christian") pickup, which I also had access to at the time. The 175CC guitars were very viable jazz guitars. 175s run from good to great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 I would choose the "D" for the exact reason you mention. The only problem is this: actually I am in love about the Berney Kessel jazz tone ..... so I am oblige to visit the shop, make a test with the 175-CC (together with my ampli) and hear the tone because according with the youtube examples ..... the guitar is different, the ammpli is different but what is on another planet is the guitar player so is sure that the tone that I will hear will be of sure completely different. Thanks Fulvio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 One has a pair of humbuckers, possibly T-Tops. The other has a single neck single-coil pickup re-creation of the bar pickup known as the Charlie Christian. One has a mahogany neck. The other has a maple neck. They are really quite different ES-175s. The only thing they have in common is the model name and body form. One thing to watch out for with a guitar that has been played a lot is the neck angle, arch of the top, and quality of the frets. It is very likely to require a fresh new set of frets. Check that it does NOT require a neck reset. Also, ES-175s are notorious for the arch of the top collapsing because the parallel braces are kerfed, not carved, to fit under the top, and sometimes break if the kerfs are cut too deeply. It is a cost-saving measure. So, take a small camera probe and scope out the braces under the top. You got to play them to know the one you prefer. The ES-175 CC is a one-trick pony but it is a good trick; if you like that kind of sound, it could be all that you need. The 3-piece maple neck also gives it a different tonal character, a slightly brighter one. If you like Barney Kessel with his ES-350 kitted out with the Charlie Christian pup or Kenny Burrell, and of course, the great Charlie Christian, all of whom used the Charlie Christian-style pickup, this may be the pickup for you. Being single coil, it picks up hum. You gotta to factor that in. Only about 478 ES-175CCs were made between 1978 and 1979, if Wikipaedia is to be believed. The last new ones were shipped in 1981. There is a member here, Jimmy, who had an ES-175CC in blonde that he thought was a piece of turd. If you search Youtube for Oliver of Orange Sunday, you will find a few good demos of his 1978 ES-175CC. Both ES-175s are from the Norlin era of Gibson's history. They are noted to be heavily built and not too acoustic sounding i.e. some people find them dead and liveless. If the electrified voice is all that matters to you, they should be hunky-dory. My 2 cents is that the ES-175D would be the more versatile axe if you could only have one axe. The ES-175CC is kind of an esoteric axe. Flatwound strings, straight into the tube amp with mild tube reverb, straightahead jazz. You either bond with it or find it limiting. I like it into a simple cathode-biased Fender "tweed" amp like the 5e3. I have an ES-150 Charlie Christian Reissue and a Super 400 Charlie Christian so you can tell that I like the Charlie Christian pickup a lot. I really dig the Charlie Christian pickup. (I like it so much I said it twice.) Since you are in Italy, look up Daniel Slaman on Youtube. Daniel makes archtops kitted out with Jason Lollar or CC Pickup UK Charlie Christian pickups, inspired by the pre-war Gibson ES-150 and ES-250. See whether the sound catches your ear. I would like to thank you for the all precious info you gave me. As I told to L5Larry, at the moment I am in love about the CC tone and sure during the shop's visit I will discover that the CC guitar is in mint condition, these are two very important point that push me in the CC direction, what is stopping me is that the 175 D has an important story and this is very attractiv for me. At the moment the guitar is in the hands of my friend and he is very expert about vintage guitar (he has some Fender 1963-1964-1969 and also some vintage Gibson Les Paul models) . He recieved this 175 during a previous sale, he sold a Birdland (1969) and he recieved in excange this 175 D (1974) and money. So he already analized the 175 ..... eventually I can transfer your doubts (that now are also mine) to understand if he had a check on the guitar for this specific problem .... my friend is an expert about vintage guitar but he is a specialist about the solid-body guitar and the doubt you transfer me is another story for completely different guitars than the solid-body ......... Many thanks Fulvio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 I'm the guy that had that ES-175CC years ago. It was at the NAMM show at that time in 1979......bought it at D J's Rock and Roll in Cicero,Illinois in 1979...... and was one of the very few natural finish 175CC's ever made by Gibson at that time. That said I will again say that the guitar was simply one 'dead' sounding instrument. The CC pickup that was on the guitar was in no way comparable to the CC pickup that was on an original ES-150 of say 1939 for example as I've played those guitars and can attest to the sound. The CC pickup that Gibson made for a short time period in the late 1970's was IMHO more of a cosmetic thing than anything else............jim in Maine I never heard an old CC (I am not so lucky) but I can believe in you about the diffrence between an hold CC and a new one !! The same for the 175 D model between an hold PAF and a T-Top or other latest pick up. Unfortunately I have no enough money to buy an hold ES 150 or an hold 175 assembleb with the historical and legendary CC and PAF. Another think .... i am sure that I am not able to discern an hold pu to a new one .... maybe I can do it if I can compare them in the same time during a test, using same guitar and the same ampli, but if I hear an old one pu today and a new one one week later ?!?!? I am sure that is impossible for me to remember the diffrences .... but obviously this is a my problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Here's my take and I think you already agree with it. While I do not typically use the bridge pup alone, I do use it quite a bit with the neck pup. I roll the volume on the bridge pup down a bit and it gives me a fantastic tone not available with the neck pup alone. I can also use the BP's tone control with both pups to add more flexibility. The claim that a single pup guitar is livelier in the body tone may be true, but I haven't heard one I liked enough to give up the flexibility of two pups. Oh your English is fine... Hi Gnappi, I had during the last 20 years two Gibson L4, one Gibson 175, an old Ibanez AS200 (1983), two Stratocaster, one Telecaster on all thesse guitar I never moved the switch form the neck position (maybe only for a short time on the solid-body guitars ... this is normal) but every time I prefer play the guitar with the neck pu position. I have to tell you that during the test of the 175D (1974) the best tone was for me in the middle position (both the pu together) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Are you going to play jazz? If so, a neck pickup is what you need. One pickup ES175s are great jazz guitars. I played three 175CCs. The most recent one I had for several months but didn't keep. None of them sounded dead, at all. In no way did they sound like a ES150 with the old cobalt bar magnets ("Charlie Christian") pickup, which I also had access to at the time. The 175CC guitars were very viable jazz guitars. 175s run from good to great. Mmmmmmmmm ..... I want to go immediately to the shop to test the 175 CC guitar !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Larry has it - and he is THE Gibson forum archtop man. I agree. I have a one-pickup Eastman copy that is very nice for "jazz," but not as versatile as my old middle 1970s near-perfect "copy" by Ibanez of the two pickup model. I love that guitar. The two pickup model can sing any song with many voices. m As I wrote .... I am totally agree with you but I am too curious the test the CC with only one PU .... maybe I have to buy both the guitars ? This is impossible to do, but maybe there i s another solution at the moment I have a Peerless Jazz City (made in Korea with only one neck pu and a top made of solid wood) I hope that you do not read these words like a "Balsphemy" but these guitar play very very well (and the price is very very low) Maybe I can by the 175 D (1974) and try to change the PU on the Peerless with a new CC ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I do not know about other people, but I think you have a good idea. Many guitars from Asia are very well made, and are good quality with low price. I do not know about the "new" Charlie Christian pickups, but it may be "fun" to try other pickups on your Asian guitar. I believe that the most important thing for a guitar player is to find a guitar that fits his or her body geometry and plays well. An electric guitar has two parts, the guitar, pickup and controls, and the amplifier. Tone is important, but how one plays the guitar will make a very big difference. So will how the guitar is made, and how the volume and tone are set. The amplifier is another big part in this. If you have fun with a new ES175 and with your older Asian guitar, you will become a better guitar player. Good luck to you! m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubomusica Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hello guys ..... this morning i had the opportunity to test the 175 CC (1978) and I would like to give you two different feedback. The first about the look ..... great !!! The guitar is fantastic and it is in very good condition, with only some little use sign. The second about the sound ..... I did not like so much, too much acoustic and I did not hear the tone I was searching for (I made the test with a Fender ampli). I prefer much more the sound of the 175 D (1974) with my Roland Cube 30X. So at the end, If I will be able to sell my James Goodall acoustic guitar, I am sure that I will buy the 175 in D version ..... I will come back to you with the and fo this story (and some picture as soon as possible .... I hope this will be in a short time. Thank you very much for your precious support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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