Apparently an ES-150

[tpbiii]

Hi,

 

We mostly collect old acoustics and we mostly hang out on the acoustics forum. But we do have a few electrics -- the Gibsons would be a 84 ES-335S, 67 SG JR, a 62 Melody Maker and a 49 EM-150. These we basically picked up over the years while collecting acoustics -- I used to play some electrics in the deep dark past (think late 50s and early 60s), but then we (my wife and I) went over to the dark side (bluegrass) and we have not come back.

 

I always have been attracted to blue collar instruments -- cheap stuff that changed the world. So I was always on the lookout for an ES-125 -- you know, if one dropped in my lap:rolleyes:. Well last week I went into a small shop that never has anything, and there was an old Gibson archtop electric on the wall. It looked a bit large to me, but what do I know about archtop electrics. I asked what it was, and was told it was an ES-125. Well, it seemed to be in realy good shape for an old guitar and I was able to negotiate a very good price -- for an early 50s ES-125.

 

I then posted on the (OMG) UMGF and I was told it looked to small too be and WS-125.

 

Well, long story short, I did my homework and it is a late 48 or early 49 ES-150. And I guess my very good ES-125 price is a very very good ES-150.

 

Since we also have a EM-150 from the same period, maybe the fates are telling me to listen to Charlie Christian\:D/\:D/.

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[bobouz]

Indeed, a beauty with a lovely burst!

[j45nick]

Nice one, Tom. Interesting to see a flat plate L-7 style tailpiece rather than the typical wire trap. I wasn't familiar with this model until you brought it up.

[milod]

Dear Sir:

 

You are a jerk for such luck. <grin>

 

Very, very nice. Love to have one myself.

 

BTW, a rancher friend has been using a 125 for years doing cowboy material. The single pole pup at that position has a nice "in-between" acoustic and electric sound that works for him quite well. If you knew the area where he lives, you'd understand how he likes "his" guitar and how well it works either for acoustic or electric. A true cowboy singer and a true cowboy in the best sense as well as being a gentleman of the old school.

 

Scroll down a tad to see him in action. I had some shots of him that were a bit more clear, but I don't think they're still on line anywhere.

 

http://www.cowboypoetry.com/gathers08f.htm#Alzada

 

m

[jimmyl51]

Do you still have the pickguard for this beauty? GREAT instrument! Who really needs a cutaway anyways!? :>) jim in Maine

[tpbiii]

You are a jerk for such luck. <grin>

 

 

 

Indeed and thank you -- the guitar gods protect the stupid I guess.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[JimR56]

Nice one, Tom. Interesting to see a flat plate L-7 style tailpiece rather than the typical wire trap.

Plus the fact that it appears to be gold-plated. Not the original tailpiece for this 150, but it does look good on there.

[tpbiii]

Plus the fact that it appears to be gold-plated. Not the original tailpiece for this 150, but it does look good on there.

 

The tuners are gold plated as well -- look identical to those from our '62 Hummingbird.

 

I have no information nor expertise in this area -- we are flat top people.

 

However, I am interested in the questions. The gold tail piece appears to be the same as that used on the L-175 -- introduced in 1949, the same year as this guitar. Were the tuners on the 175 gold? If Gibson in the late 40s was anything like Gibson in the 30s, it might be a safe bet that this thing came out of the factory like this.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[j45nick]

The tuners are gold plated as well -- look identical to those from our '62 Hummingbird.

 

I have no information nor expertise in this area -- we are flat top people.

 

However, I am interested in the questions. The gold tail piece appears to be the same as that used on the L-175 -- introduced in 1949, the same year as this guitar. Were the tuners on the 175 gold? If Gibson in the late 40s was anything like Gibson in the 30s, it might be a safe bet that this thing came out of the factory like this.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

 

 

Entirely possible. It's Gibson, after all.

[JimR56]

The tuners are gold plated as well -- look identical to those from our '62 Hummingbird.

 

I have no information nor expertise in this area -- we are flat top people.

 

However, I am interested in the questions. The gold tail piece appears to be the same as that used on the L-175 -- introduced in 1949, the same year as this guitar. Were the tuners on the 175 gold? If Gibson in the late 40s was anything like Gibson in the 30s, it might be a safe bet that this thing came out of the factory like this.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

There was no L-175. ES-175's (introduced in 1949) did not feature gold hardware. L5's did, but of course those had a different tailpiece design. Your pickguard may have come from an ES-350, which did feature a gold-plated tailpiece of that design:

 

 

[tpbiii]

There was no L-175. ES-175's (introduced in 1949) did not feature gold hardware. L5's did, but of course those had a different tailpiece design. Your pickguard may have come from an ES-350, which did feature a gold-plated tailpiece of that design:

 

 

 

 

Thanks. (I know there is no L-175 -- just a stupid typo.)

 

I have been looking at archtops and electric archtops from 1947-1950 on gbase. The tail piece and tuners appear on several, but all on higher end instruments than this one seems to be -- just as you suggest[biggrin]. I saw no instruments (Ls or ESs) with dot inlays with such hardware.

 

It is so easy to replace either the tail piece or the tuners, I suspect there is no way to tell if they were replaced. And it does not really matter to me -- it is just fun to speculate and occasionally find a likely answer. But they both seem to be old.

 

Thanks again.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[JimR56]

Yes, dot inlays are generally a lower-grade feature, and gold hardware a higher-grade feature.

 

I'd say it's a lot more likely that somebody modified your 150 than Gibson having put that hardware on there when it was built. Trapeze tailpieces (even the type you have) have been known to break, and of course lower-grade tuners often get swapped out even when they're not broken.

[tpbiii]

Yes, dot inlays are generally a lower-grade feature, and gold hardware a higher-grade feature.

 

I'd say it's a lot more likely that somebody modified your 150 than Gibson having put that hardware on there when it was built. Trapeze tailpieces (even the type you have) have been known to break, and of course lower-grade tuners often get swapped out even when they're not broken.

 

Thanks for the insight -- I now believe you are very probably right. We have very few guitars from this period from Gibson and very few archtops or electrics, so my experience is very limited -- and my recent and admittedly brief research into feature inconsistencies from around 1950 show nothing like the "well what shall we make today" approach from the 30s and early 40s. It is lovely -- but somehow less charming -- to be able to reason using the assumption that Gibsons models are consistent!

 

In fact, one of the only other Gibson archtops we have, acquired at a flea market long ago (L-4 1937) looks like this.

 

 

At that time, the L-4 spec was for f-holes and dot fingerboards -- the fingerboard on this one matched the Nick Lucus guitars from the period.

 

These seem to be well documented, if rare, variations -- I don't know if they always occurred together.

 

If you, or anyone else with experience, would like to comment on Gibson consistency in the 1950s I would love to hear it.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[JimR56]

Nice looking L4, Tom. According to what I've read, Gibson offered the round soundhole again on the L4- as a standard option- but in 1937 only (after changing the specs to feature f-holes on the model in 1935). So, yours may be somewhat rare compared to a '37 with f-holes, but how rare in terms of production numbers... I don't know. Someone may chime in with more info on that (could even be me, if I find any more data).

 

I generally think of Gibson as being pretty consistent with their basic model designs, but I have more experience with post-war guitars that pre-war. The one Gibson I owned from the pre-war era was a 1940 ES-250N. As it happens, that model (which was short-lived) was among the least consistent in features in the history of the company. :) They were still doing a lot of experimenting back in those days, in just about every detail of a guitar's construction. During the war years, they of course had to improvise a bit due to the scarcity of raw materials, which also resulted in inconsistencies.

 

At any rate, even with more consistent construction patterns taking place in the post-war years, Gibson has a wonderful (to my way of seeing things, anyway) history of providing the option for custom ordering instruments. I find it exciting when those pop up from time to time, as has happened here on this forum several times. These custom guitars can often confuse people who don't know a great deal about Gibson's production history. There is also the phenomenon where some models evolved with sometimes subtle changes from the prototype stage and early production up through the period where players had a chance to experience a design and then provide feedback. Everything from headstock angles to nut widths to neck shapes to pickup design, etc etc. Still, most models remained generally consistent and recognizable. I think it has been the overlap of similar features on different models that has caused the most confusion over the years (and in the present day, the confusion resulting from the increasing array of similar models with similar names).

 

If there are any particular 50's models you'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to try to help.

[milod]

I'll say this much, many guitars through the mid '50s or so had a lot of "messing with" in the '60s at least. The Gibson CF100 and CF100e were in theory the same guitar, but I've read where the electric and non-electric even had different bracing.

 

I've had a couple pieces from that era that had folks bragging about their "upgrades" in the '60s and early '70s.

 

m

[tpbiii]

Nice looking L4, Tom. According to what I've read, Gibson offered the round soundhole again on the L4- as a standard option- but in 1937 only (after changing the specs to feature f-holes on the model in 1935). So, yours may be somewhat rare compared to a '37 with f-holes, but how rare in terms of production numbers... I don't know. Someone may chime in with more info on that (could even be me, if I find any more data).

 

I generally think of Gibson as being pretty consistent with their basic model designs, but I have more experience with post-war guitars that pre-war. The one Gibson I owned from the pre-war era was a 1940 ES-250N. As it happens, that model (which was short-lived) was among the least consistent in features in the history of the company. :) They were still doing a lot of experimenting back in those days, in just about every detail of a guitar's construction. During the war years, they of course had to improvise a bit due to the scarcity of raw materials, which also resulted in inconsistencies.

 

At any rate, even with more consistent construction patterns taking place in the post-war years, Gibson has a wonderful (to my way of seeing things, anyway) history of providing the option for custom ordering instruments. I find it exciting when those pop up from time to time, as has happened here on this forum several times. These custom guitars can often confuse people who don't know a great deal about Gibson's production history. There is also the phenomenon where some models evolved with sometimes subtle changes from the prototype stage and early production up through the period where players had a chance to experience a design and then provide feedback. Everything from headstock angles to nut widths to neck shapes to pickup design, etc etc. Still, most models remained generally consistent and recognizable. I think it has been the overlap of similar features on different models that has caused the most confusion over the years (and in the present day, the confusion resulting from the increasing array of similar models with similar names).

 

If there are any particular 50's models you'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to try to help.

 

Thanks for the information.

 

As I said, we don't have too much from the 50s and not much that are not flat tops. We are certainly aware of the wartime issues. In this picture, there are mahogany necks, maple necks (1 and two piece), huge necks with truss bars, huge necks with no truss bars, small necks with truss bars, birch neck blocks, mahogany neck blocks, many tuner types, mahogany B&S, RW B$S, grommets, no grommets, etc. Like you said, a lot of good reasons for this.

 

 

I guess I do have one guitar from that period that I know very little about -- I really acquired it to help out a friend. It is a first year (pearl logo) CF-100. If you happened to know anything about that, it would be cool.

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

[JimR56]

Wow, a beautiful collection and photo, Tom. I'm really an archtop guy, so I'll defer with regard to the details about flat-tops. We have a number of vintage Gibson flat-top experts around here, which I am thankful for.

 

Best to you also~

Jim

[milod]

tp...

 

All I know about the CF100 and DF100e is that an acquaintance - who'd be a good friend if he didn't live so far away - has one of each. My understanding is that there's somewhat different bracing on the electric and non-electric. I dunno if that's because of the volume and tone knob placement or what.

 

Both sound good, and he put a sound hole pup on the acoustic-only and sez it sounds better. I thought both sounded quite nice for the material he does - cowboy.

 

This photo shows the old guitar pretty well. Bob's known pretty well around the region too and is on a number of cowboy poetry/music web pages here and there.

 

In full disclosure, this old picker shared a stage with Bob in the ranch unincorporated village of Alzada a cupla times. Bob brings the PA. It sounds good. The ladies provide the lunches and lots, and lots, and lots of pies.

 

A shot of the acoustic with the soundhole pup.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/communities/belle_fourche/bigger-crowd-enjoys-alzada-cowboy-poetry-music-art-event/article_5051eeae-77a1-55b7-82df-44365aaafb70.html

 

This is the originally electric

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/cowboy-poet-to-perform-at-museum-s-cowboy-christmas/article_a597ab0a-0b0c-11e0-b980-001cc4c002e0.html

 

m

[tpbiii]

tp...

 

All I know about the CF100 and DF100e is that an acquaintance - who'd be a good friend if he didn't live so far away - has one of each. My understanding is that there's somewhat different bracing on the electric and non-electric. I dunno if that's because of the volume and tone knob placement or what.

 

Both sound good, and he put a sound hole pup on the acoustic-only and sez it sounds better. I thought both sounded quite nice for the material he does - cowboy.

 

This photo shows the old guitar pretty well. Bob's known pretty well around the region too and is on a number of cowboy poetry/music web pages here and there.

 

In full disclosure, this old picker shared a stage with Bob in the ranch unincorporated village of Alzada a cupla times. Bob brings the PA. It sounds good. The ladies provide the lunches and lots, and lots, and lots of pies.

 

A shot of the acoustic with the soundhole pup.

http://rapidcityjour...365aaafb70.html

 

This is the originally electric

http://rapidcityjour...1cc4c002e0.html

 

m

 

Thanks for the response. Ours is not electric -- we almost ever plug in, but sometimes --you know. Ours is a rescue -- bad refin long ago. I don't even have pictures at this point.

 

It is not a very strong guitar -- sort of like our '46 LG-2, but not as strong.

 

I'll take some pictures when things calm down.

 

Thanks again.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[milod]

Tom...

 

I can see with the big boys around that the CF wouldn't sound so strong. I think that's why Bob always plugs in, plus the volume fits well with his vocal volume doing a solo gig, or backing up a solo vocalist, which is where I've mostly heard him.

 

Then again... I'm also mostly plugged in, and no longer own a flattop that's not AE and played electrified in public - again, mostly solo vocal gigs.

 

I envied the ease Bob has with his guitar and we're about the same size. It's about the same as an ES175 which for me too, just "fits" the physical holding and playing geometry.

 

So... I have what amounts to three "dread size" guitars and they get played "out" a cupla times a year at most. I'm considering giving one or two away to some young folks I know who like strumming away on big guitars.

 

Meanwhile my "copy" of Bob's CF, the "cheapie" Epi PR5e, gets used 99 percent of the time when I'm "out" for a more acoustic-type thing, and swaps home unplugged practice time with the 175. I wish it had the shorter scale too. I've not seen anything "new" available I consider a better working guitar for that kinda music and technique I use, and that "fits" my geometry as well. OTOH, I've teased Bob that I'd kinda like to accidentally take his home 'stedda mine some day...

 

We had some Brit video folks a cupla years ago at Alzada's cowboy poetry/music/art show who've done a lot of music vids. We talked about how and what they heard. Basically the response was that the sound was just right. There usually are some big-bodies around, but played rather gently to go with the voice. Bob flatpicks, but gently with medium strings. I'm an even gentler fingerpicker.

 

m

[Versatile]

Returning to the first post regarding possible ES150...

 

Anybody hereon know about the pickup fitted to these 'pieces of history'...?

 

There was the original 'Charlie Christian' pickup with it's unique blade magnet design

 

This one looks like a P90...

 

V

 

[milod]

Couldn't say for sure on this model, but the ES175 first came out with a P90 in '49.

 

If one believes Wikipedia on the 150:

 

"By 1940 sales had slumped, and Gibson's facelift for the model included new pickups, made with the new Alnico magnets, the forerunner of the P-90 which is still in production. The new pickups were installed on all Gibson's electric models, and first introduced in July 1940 (the ES-100 and 250 were renamed ES-125 and 300). On the ES-150, this pickup (with adjustable individual poles) were placed closer to the bridge, to produce a more "biting" sound for soloing. Still, Gibson installed bar-style pickups on request, on the (post-1940) models for Hank Garland, Barry Galbraith, and Barney Kessel. It reintroduced the bar pickup for the general audience in 1958 for an extra $60; it was announced with the question, "Remember the straight-bar pickup that was made famous by Charlie Christian?"

[JimR56]

The 1941 version of the ES-150 with the transitional pickup looked like this:

 

 

Fortunately, that idea of putting a (single) pickup nearer the bridge did not catch on.

[milod]

Yup...

 

Funny thing is that the pup looks identical to the one on my relatively early 50s Harmony single pup (neck) archtop except for the attachment.

 

m

[A440]

Awesome find .... I've been looking for a match for my EH-150 for years (check my Avatar)

A440