1948 Gibson SJ - FON 328

[fab432]

Hello,

I have what appears to be a 1948 SJ. The FON number inked on the neck block is 328.  Of course this does not line up with the FON number quides I have seen.

The guitar has a bound fingerboard, block style Gibson logo, 19 frets, belly down bridge, original tuners, and trapezoidal in lays .

The top was replaced at Gibson in the mid 70’s.  No paperwork on that but the pick guard is from that era and there is an extra support behind the bridge which was apparently done at Gibson for a couple of years in the mid 1970’s.

Has anyone seen a 3 digit FON on a 1948 guitar?

[zombywoof]

Sorry but I cannot explain the FON.  And the features you list do not help to pinpoint a build date as they would be commonly found on SJs built between 1947 and 1955.  You could narrow it down a bit by going with what tuners are on the guitar and other features such as headstock taper and presence or lack of side supports.  

But as you can now testify to, when Kalamazoo got a guitar in for "restoration" they did not go with repro parts but what they were using on stock guitars at the time.  As such, what you are describing as a "support behind the bridge" sounds suspiciously like that second lower X brace Gibson started going with in 1971. 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by zombywoof

[fab432]

Thanks for the reply.  I’ve tried to post pics but it seems all my pics are too large to be allowed on the site?

The tuners are individual Kluson  tuners with Gibson down the centre of the back cover. They have white plastic buttons.

The headstock is 3” wide from point to point at the top of the headstock and I would describe a slim taper.

 

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, fab432 said:

Thanks for the reply.  I’ve tried to post pics but it seems all my pics are too large to be allowed on the site?

The tuners are individual Kluson  tuners with Gibson down the centre of the back cover. They have white plastic buttons.

The headstock is 3” wide from point to point at the top of the headstock and I would describe a slim taper.

 

Tuners on guitars built between 1947 into 1952 will have "Kluson Deluxe" stamped down the middle of the enclosure.  

This one is kind of weird but is there a number stamped into the back of the headstock?  The reason I ask is I think Gibson did this with guitars which required extensive repairs.   My wife's 1960 J200 has this stamp and if I recall correctly somebody on this form has a 1950s J45 which Gibson worked on which also has a stamp.

[j45nick]

8 hours ago, zombywoof said:

Tuners on guitars built between 1947 into 1952 will have "Kluson Deluxe" stamped down the middle of the enclosure.  

This one is kind of weird but is there a number stamped into the back of the headstock?  The reason I ask is I think Gibson did this with guitars which required extensive repairs.   My wife's 1960 J200 has this stamp and if I recall correctly somebody on this form has a 1950s J45 which Gibson worked on which also has a stamp.

When my first 1950 J-45 went back to Gibson for repairs in 1968, they stamped the FON on the back of the headstock. And they re-topped the guitar, even though I didn't ask for it.

The features of the guitar sound right for the period to me, but more detail is needed. I believe the bound fretboard began in 1948.  In 1948, the top braces would still have been scalloped, but if it was re-topped in the 70s, all bets are off on the top bracing. The bridge might have been either belly-up (typical Gibson style) or belly-down (Martin style). Both types of bridges have been used on the SJ at one time or another.

The original bridge would have a slot-through(long) saddle. If the guitar was re-topped, there is a good chance the bridge was also replaced at the same time. That's what they did to my J-45.

The additional top support referred to could also be the floating adjustable brace under the bridge that Gibson installed on my J-45 when they re-topped it. This had vertical wooden supports on the sides, plus a transverse "floating" brace with a thumbscrew that basically pressed up against the top right behind the bridge, like an adjustable column. I ripped that out shortly after I got the guitar back, and finally remove the remains of the wooden side supports a few years ago.

If it is a 1948 neck, the headstock will be tapered slightly in thickness (about 1/8" of the length of the headstock) when you look at it from the side, from around 5/8" thick in the area of the truss rod to about 1/2" thick at the top of the headstock.

You need to put pictures on a hosting site to post them here. Others will tell you how to do that.

The 328 FON is a mystery. But then the ways of Gibson are sometimes mysterious.

Photos would be a tremendous help.

[zombywoof]

37 minutes ago, j45nick said:

When my first 1950 J-45 went back to Gibson for repairs in 1968, they stamped the FON on the back of the headstock. And they re-topped the guitar, even though I didn't ask for it.

The features of the guitar sound right for the period to me, but more detail is needed. I believe the bound fretboard began in 1948.  In 1948, the top braces would still have been scalloped, but if it was re-topped in the 70s, all bets are off on the top bracing. The bridge might have been either belly-up (typical Gibson style) or belly-down (Martin style). Both types of bridges have been used on the SJ at one time or another.

The original bridge would have a slot-through(long) saddle. If the guitar was re-topped, there is a good chance the bridge was also replaced at the same time. That's what they did to my J-45.

The additional top support referred to could also be the floating adjustable brace under the bridge that Gibson installed on my J-45 when they re-topped it. This had vertical wooden supports on the sides, plus a transverse "floating" brace with a thumbscrew that basically pressed up against the top right behind the bridge, like an adjustable column. I ripped that out shortly after I got the guitar back, and finally remove the remains of the wooden side supports a few years ago.

If it is a 1948 neck, the headstock will be tapered slightly in thickness (about 1/8" of the length of the headstock) when you look at it from the side, from around 5/8" thick in the area of the truss rod to about 1/2" thick at the top of the headstock.

You need to put pictures on a hosting site to post them here. Others will tell you how to do that.

The 328 FON is a mystery. But then the ways of Gibson are sometimes mysterious.

Photos would be a tremendous help.

It sounds like the floating brace which Gibson added to your J45 was similar to the Fuller Brace they started putting in the J200 in 1962.  This though was between the soundhole and bridge and was screwed directly into the bracing.  Not the best recipe for sound but fortunately, it was easy to remove.

The reason I asked about a stamp on the headstock is precisely because it would be the FON.  If that on the neck block is faded, the OP could be mistaking an "8" for a "3".  According to the Pros from Dover an 800 series FON would place the build date in 1947 which would work. 

No matter when the guitar was built though, it sounds like it is one heck of a player's guitar.

[fab432]

I just checked my guitar and  the tuners do in fact say Kluson down the center of the cover.

[fab432]

https://imgur.com/gallery/je97jkt

I hope the pics are added via the link.  Should be front and back of the headstock and the FON number.  Now that I have a pic of the FON and can enlarge it, it could be 728 which would align with the year 1947.

[slimt]

Looks like a 7 to me for the first digit .

 

code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G).
1942    907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo.
1942    H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH
1943    Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model.
1944    Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON.
1945    1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON.
1946    n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner).
1947    700s to 1000s
1948    1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.)
1949    2000s
1950    3000s to 5000s
1951    6000s to 9000s

[j45nick]

20 hours ago, slimt said:

Looks like a 7 to me for the first digit .

 

code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G).
1942    907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo.
1942    H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH
1943    Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model.
1944    Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON.
1945    1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON.
1946    n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner).
1947    700s to 1000s
1948    1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.)
1949    2000s
1950    3000s to 5000s
1951    6000s to 9000s

I don't know how many different ink stamps Gibson was using in that period, but I have two 1950 J-45's that clearly used either the same ink stamp, or identical ink stamps.  There are a bunch of 3s in the two FONs, but no 7 unfortunately, so I can't offer anything definitive.

All the  stamped 3s in my guitars are very rounded on the top and bottom, and don't look a lot like the first number in the Op's FON. However, given the numeral style Gibson was using, I would be very surprised if the "tail" of a stamped 7 did not angle sharply to the left from top to bottom.

I'm surprised at how clean the headstock is on that guitar. I wonder if Gibson did the owner the "favor" of some refinishing if the guitar was re-topped at the factory. They certainly did on my first old J-45, much to my dismay.

[zombywoof]

OK, I'll bite.  The FON should have a hyphen followed by a rack number or whatever it was.   Also, what is that black blotch on the upper part of the neck block?   

Edited June 3, 2022 by zombywoof

[j45nick]

16 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

OK, I'll bite.  The FON should have a hyphen followed by a rack number or whatever it was.   Also, what is that black blotch on the upper part of the neck block?   

Velcro patch for a pickup battery pack?

Neither of my 1950 J-45s has a hyphen between the FON and rack number: just a wide space. Looks like two stamp wheel spaces. So it's  3644  8, for example, not 3644-8.

Edited June 3, 2022 by j45nick
added additional thought

[fab432]

You guessed it. The previous owner had installed an under the bridge pick up and the black strip on the neck block is a Velcro strip.  I took the strings off so I could get the battery pack out so I could take a pic of the FON

[slimt]

59 minutes ago, j45nick said:

I don't know how many different ink stamps Gibson was using in that period, but I have two 1950 J-45's that clearly used either the same ink stamp, or identical ink stamps.  There are a bunch of 3s in the two FONs, but no 7 unfortunately, so I can't offer anything definitive.

All the  stamped 3s in my guitars are very rounded on the top and bottom, and don't look a lot like the first number in the Op's FON. However, given the numeral style Gibson was using, I would be very surprised if the "tail" of a stamped 7 did not angle sharply to the left from top to bottom.

I'm surprised at how clean the headstock is on that guitar. I wonder if Gibson did the owner the "favor" of some refinishing if the guitar was re-topped at the factory. They certainly did on my first old J-45, much to my dismay.

Numbers do look weird.   .    47 to 51 was a odd time for some numbers or no numbers.    My J50 has no numbers. We had to  guess between years via the visual appointments.    

[zombywoof]

37 minutes ago, j45nick said:

Velcro patch for a pickup battery pack?

Neither of my 1950 J-45s has a hyphen between the FON and rack number: just a wide space. Looks like two stamp wheel spaces. So it's  3644  8, for example, not 3644-8.

I just looked at my '42 J50 and my wife's '60 J200 and neither of them has a hyphen either.  You think by now I would have learned to look at the guitars before looking at what the Pros from Dover had to say.  But the point is that even without a hyphen the rack number is still there.   It was the way Gibson tracked the number of guitars built in a batch.  

[zombywoof]

46 minutes ago, slimt said:

Numbers do look weird.   .    47 to 51 was a odd time for some numbers or no numbers.    My J50 has no numbers. We had to  guess between years via the visual appointments.    

It was not uncommon for Gibsons built from later in 1945 into 1948 to not have FONs stamped on the neck block.  I always figured their absence was like the question of why Gibson did not put center  back strips in the earliest Banners.  The answer is who knows.  But it does open up the possibility that the FON on the OPs guitar  was put there by Gibson when they replaced the top.  

Edited June 3, 2022 by zombywoof

[j45nick]

9 hours ago, zombywoof said:

It was not uncommon for Gibsons built from later in 1945 into 1948 to not have FONs stamped on the neck block.  I always figured their absence was like the question of why Gibson did not put center  back strips in the earliest Banners.  The answer is who knows.  But it does open up the possibility that the FON on the OPs guitar  was put there by Gibson when they replaced the top.  

It seems unlikely that Gibson would have arbitrarily assigned a 3-digit FON to a guitar in the repair shop in the 1970s. It was typical for them to stamp an existing FON on the back of the headstock on guitars in the repair shop.

Maybe Gibson couldn't read the FON either, and so did not stamp the headstock when the guitar was re-topped, assuming Gibson did the work.

The only way to reasonably date the guitar is by its remaining original characteristics. If it has a tapered headstock, that means no later than 1952, I believe. The bound fretboard, kif original, means no earlier than 1947 or so.

Three digit FON probably means no later than 1947.

Dating this will be a "preponderance of evidence" exercise.

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, j45nick said:

It seems unlikely that Gibson would have arbitrarily assigned a 3-digit FON to a guitar in the repair shop in the 1970s. It was typical for them to stamp an existing FON on the back of the headstock on guitars in the repair shop.

Maybe Gibson couldn't read the FON either, and so did not stamp the headstock when the guitar was re-topped, assuming Gibson did the work.

The only way to reasonably date the guitar is by its remaining original characteristics. If it has a tapered headstock, that means no later than 1952, I believe. The bound fretboard, kif original, means no earlier than 1947 or so.

Three digit FON probably means no later than 1947.

Dating this will be a "preponderance of evidence" exercise.

Your and my experience with guitars sent back to Gibson is why I originally asked about a stamp on the back of the headstock.  

While trying to figure out a mystery is always fun because of all the OP's  guitar had been subjected to dating it really does not mean much. 

If you think about it today no repair guy worth their salt would have re-topped it.  But back in the day that instrument (like yours) was just a "used" guitar as "vintage" had not yet entered our musical lexicon.  Similarly Martin had the habit of overspraying any guitar they got in for repair so that it went back to the owner looking nice and shiny.