iangibson Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 OK. This thread is to get help with getting the guitar to play right. As mentioned in the other thread, I got this guitar from a widow of a working musician, and the guitar shows a few issues. One of the biggest issues is the caved-in top. There's no cracks in the wood, but the fingerboard is diving towards the sound hole, the bridge is leaning forward and the lower bout is swollen up a bit. Here are some pictures to show the condition of the top. You can see both the bridge and the fingerboard are vowing down towards the sound hole. The fingerboard end viewed from the bass side. This is the second vintage acoustic guitar I bought, so I don't know how common the fallen top is or the acceptable degree of the symptom. The neck is straight and guitar sounds great as is, but what do you say? Does the top need a repair to be flattened up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 The second functionality problem is that I can't seem to get the tune-o-matic bridge any lower. The neck is straight, but the action at the 12th fret is 5/64" on high E and 7/64" on low E. It can be played, but if I decided to, I should be able to lower it down to 4/64" and 6/64" which is Gibson's factory setting, right? Here's how low the bridge sits in the bridge base. I can't turn the height adjustment screws because with any more torque I'm afraid I might break the bridge or top. If anyone has a Dove or J-200 from the same period, how low does the tune-o-matic sinks in the bridge base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 I think you're looking at a bridge plate replacement at an absolute minimum. That's just to bring the top back to somewhere near it's original shape. I can't tell in the pics all that well but in the first pic I don't like the looks of the neck angle either. You might be in for a reset. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there's no simple fix here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 You mean replacing the bracing underneath the bridge? The first picture shows the fingerboard, mostly its crooked part, maybe that's why the neck angle is wrong? I should get an exact side shot of the entire guitar so you can judge precisely. I certainly would not want to reset the neck if I didn't have to! One thing I'm worried is when I get the top straighten up, the point of the saddles will be higher and the string action will get even higher than now. And unless the tune-o-matic goes down deeper in the bridge, then I will definetely need a neck reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 You should definitely take this guitar to a qualified luthier to assess. It is not unusual for a 46 year old guitar to show these symptoms. The string tension, over time, makes all guitars want to collapse in on themselves; the neck starts to dive into the body and the bridge starts to rotate in. From the photos, it looks like that is what is happening here. Laying a straight edge along the fretboard and sliding it down towards the bridge will tell you neck angle. If the straight edge points down towards the bottom of the bridge and does not glide just along the top of the bridge (not saddle, bridge) then the neck angle has changed to point you need a reset. Your guitar expert will be able to inspect the bracing in the interior to see if something is amiss there as well. He/she will examine the neck, bridge, bracing, fretboard and frets and determine what is needed to bring it back to playability. The good news is, you have a beautiful vintage instrument that looks like it could come back to excellent playability with relatively little work compared to some instruments that have been abused. A neck reset, fingerboard releveling and a refret would turn this into an amazing instrument once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 One thing I'm worried is when I get the top straighten up' date=' the point of the saddles will be higher and the string action will get even higher than now. And unless the tune-o-matic goes down deeper in the bridge, then I will definetely need a neck reset. [/color'] You would not be able to work on this bridge independent of the other parts of the guitar. The neck angle is critical to this repair. Both the bridge and the neck have rotated in from what I can see and you can't deal with one issue without dealing with the other as well. They are completely related to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Also, looking at this photo you posted in the other thread: it appears the top might be shrunken as well. Looking at the reflections on the upper bass bout, it looks a bit concave. Could this guitar be dry? What is your relative humidity like? Guitars that dry out exhibit shrinkage like this where the top goes from being a proper convex shape to being concave and the necks dive in and the bridges rotate. Again, a trip to an expert guitar tech is essential for this guitar IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 Thanks for all your valuable info. I really appreciate it. I will ask around to find the best repair man in my country and see what he has to say. it appears the top might be shrunken as well. Looking at the reflections on the upper bass bout' date=' it looks a bit concave. Could this guitar be dry? What is your relative humidity like? Guitars that dry out exhibit shrinkage like this where the top goes from being a proper convex shape to being concave and the necks dive in and the bridges rotate. [/quote'] Sounds like the guitar spent most of its life in Missouri and was frequently taken out to a gig until about five years ago (when the owner deceased.) It's in Japan now where it's reasonably dry in winter and gets very humid during the June/July rainy season and quite muggy throughout the summer. The climate difference between winter and summer is vast, not very acoustic guitar-friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 i have a guitar of similar vintage that was showing many of the same signs yours is. I hemmed and hawed about it for a few months but i eventually took it in and had everything done to it that mr. drathbun recommends (above) and it did in fact turn out the way mr. drathbun promised (above again) it probably wasn't something that made financial sense as the cost of the guitar and the repair work could maybe have been put towards a more solid vintage instrument at the time. in the end it worked out quite well though, i learned a bunch of things about buying vintage instruments and still was able to get a great vintage instrument out of the deal. i do definitely recommend though that if you do choose to undertake the repairs you do everything all at once and have it done by a shop well versed in doing these large jobs. you'll get a great guitar out of it no doubt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 OK, you guys have convinced me to take it in for a pro examination for a start. Then I'll need to compare the cost with the value of a no-issue 1962/1963 example of this model. Do you know how much it is going for today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 the cost of a late 60s dove is going to be pretty much all over the map: i'd guess between (USD) 900 -> 2000. i can tell you that the cost to get mine repaired from a very reputable shop was about $1200USD. that included: - neck reset - new bridge - new nut - full refret - fretboard leveling (pretty bad curvature of the neck) - repair of a bunch of cracks and to complicate things of course, sometimes a dove in hand is better than two in the bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangibson Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 Thanks for the breakdown of the repair cost - very helpful. Can anyone give me an idea for how much a sound, early-60's Dove can be had today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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