Mr B Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Hi all, When I got my G1275, I noticed that the bridge on the 6 string neck was set up kinda funky. The bass end was much higher than the treble by a good 2 or 3 full turns. Sighting down the neck showed under string tension a dead straight neck. When I got it home, I loosened the truss rod around 1/8th of a turn, and lowered the bridge so it's only around a turn and a half higher on the bass side. It was like that for about a week, and it didn't seem to gain any relief...the neck was still straight as an arrow. I figured the bridge was set up like it was so the strings wouldn't buzz, and backing off the truss rod would allow me to lower the bridge. Soooo... Thursday night, I backed off the truss rod again. I was going to go a full 1/4 turn more, but right about when I got there all resistance on the adjuster disappeared. Not stripped or anything, just all the way loose. I put it so it was just snug and retuned to pitch. The neck is still dead on straight. What's next, heavier strings and hope that pulls the neck into a bit of a bow, giving me proper relief? I really don't want to raise the bridge back up like it was...it looked all stupid at the weird angle it was sitting at. The guitar was new when I bought it and I haven't changed the strings since I got it, so I'm guessing it's got the original factory 10's on it. Thanks in advance! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 BTW...the 12 string side it perfect. Normal fall away and relief, and the bridge is almost level from side to side....forgot to mention that. B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 ..... Sighting down the neck showed under string tension a dead straight neck.Brian By "sighting", do you mean just that - looking down (or up) the length of the neck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 By "sighting"' date=' do you mean just that - looking down (or up) the length of the neck? [/quote'] Yes. Resting the tip of the headstock against my cheek and looking down the neck from nut to end of fretboard. B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Yes. Resting the tip of the headstock against my cheek and looking down the neck from nut to end of fretboard.B. OK. Now try fretting the low E string at the 1st fret and the fret where the neck joins the body. Check the relief at the 7th fret. Although there is no actual specification for this measurement, it's common to have just a hair of clearance, measured in thousandths (.000) of an inch. Let us know what you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA61 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Mr B, maybe your guitar has a bi-flex truss rod? I encountered a similar problem when I got my "56" Goldtop last year. I loosend the truss rod all the way and it was still just about dead flat and the nut was totally loose. If you look at the allen nut on my 56 you can see it sits inside a metal ring. If you keep backing out it will start to tighten up and I can get a perfect .010 at the sevent fret. My Clapton Strat has a bi-flex truss rod too and I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy01 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 If there are no buzzes anywhere, and your action is nice and low the entire length of the neck, why fool around with it? You don't have to have relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 OK. Now try fretting the low E string at the 1st fret and the fret where the neck joins the body. Check the relief at the 7th fret. Although there is no actual specification for this measurement' date=' it's common to have just a hair of clearance, measured in thousandths (.000) of an inch. Let us know what you find.[/quote'] Ron, thanks for the reply. Here's my results. Taking an old 3" long metal ruler with one edge measuring in 64ths of an inch; Low E, fretted at 1st fret, measured at 7th fret = approx 1 1/2 64ths. So, lets for the sake of arguement call that 15/640 (basically 1.5/64ths). That equals 0.02344" Low E, fretted at neck/body joint (15th fret), measured at 7th = just under 1/64th" Call it .75/64" So, 75/6400" , which translates to 0.01172" Mr B' date=' maybe your guitar has a bi-flex truss rod? I encountered a similar problem when I got my "56" Goldtop last year. I loosend the truss rod all the way and it was still just about dead flat and the nut was totally loose. If you look at the allen nut on my 56 you can see it sits inside a metal ring. If you keep backing out it will start to tighten up and I can get a perfect .010 at the sevent fret. My Clapton Strat has a bi-flex truss rod too and I love it![/quote'] Interesting...can anyone else comment on this? If the neck doesn't move any further (I know truss rod adjustments can take days sometimes to finally move and settle) I might try this. Thanks. If there are no buzzes anywhere' date=' and your action is nice and low the entire length of the neck, why fool around with it? You don't have to have relief.[/quote'] I asked the initial question because I am getting buzzing. I'm not unaware that metal strings on metal frets can and will cause buzzing, but I believe that if the neck had proper relief, the buzzing I'm getting would dissappear. Reference quote "Relief is the key to low string height' date=' few buzzes, and comfortable action. If you pluck a string, especially a wound one, the greatest movement occurs towards the center of the string length. The string moves in a long elliptical pattern. By loosening the rod, the fingerboard gains relief, allowing a greater clearancefor the vibrating portion of the string between the fretted note and the bridge. [b']This is helpful on open strings near the nut and the first few frets, where the strings are lowest.[/b] Different amounts of relief are necessary for different players' styles." Dan Erlewine Author, "Guitar Player Repair Guide" GPI Books, Miller Freeman Publications Copyright 1990 ISBN 0-7395-0075-3 Quote from page 12 (my bold/italics) The majority of the buzzing I'm getting is from wound (bass side) open strings while playing open chords, notably G, D, and Am. I think this is why the bridge was jacked up as high as it was on the bass side when I originally got the guitar. So it wouldn't buzz and and improve saleability. I am also getting a bit of buzzing when fretting notes between around the 11th fret and as high as I can play on the neck (you really can't reach the 20th on either neck). I don't see any rise or hump in this area as I "sight" the neck as outlined earlier in this thread though. I'm *hoping* this is related and goes away as well if I can get proper relief in the neck. One thing Mr. Erlewine does not mention in his book while discussing truss rod adjustments is a neck that is straight and does not gain relief when loosening the rod. the closest he really gets to touching on the subject is later in the book, when discussing problem necks, such as one with a broken rod and a back bow. My problem obviously isn't this severe. Thanks for the replies so far, and again, thanks in advance for any additional assistance. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Brian, It's normal for the bridge to be raised higher on the bass-side. The wound bass-strings have more amplitude than the treble strings. A straight neck is not a bad thing per se. Many players prefer a straight neck over a relieved neck. Generally it is adviced to turn the trussrod in small increments, but just last week I had a guitar with only the slightest of "back-bow" and had to do a full 360º to find the appropriate relief. Sometimes the trussrod seems to get "stuck" in the narrow routing and needs a little incentive. Usually after adjustment of the trussrod I grab the neck at the first frets and push the neck into relief somewhere down the middle. Obviously not too hard! If that doesn't help I'd go with a set of xtra heavies, tune up a step and let it sit for a week. If that doesn't help and you're willing to spend some money you should take it to a luthier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Brian' date=' It's normal for the bridge to be raised higher on the bass-side. The wound bass-strings have more [i']amplitude[/i] than the treble strings. A straight neck is not a bad thing per se. Many players prefer a straight neck over a relieved neck. Generally it is adviced to turn the trussrod in small increments, but just last week I had a guitar with only the slightest of "back-bow" and had to do a full 360º to find the appropriate relief. Sometimes the trussrod seems to get "stuck" in the narrow routing and needs a little incentive. Usually after adjustment of the trussrod I grab the neck at the first frets and push the neck into relief somewhere down the middle. Obviously not too hard! If that doesn't help I'd go with a set of xtra heavies, tune up a step and let it sit for a week. If that doesn't help and you're willing to spend some money you should take it to a luthier. Thanks for the reply. I understand the bass side will be higher, but it shouldn't be as high as it was. Where it sits now is almost exactly how the 12 string bridge sits, but with the 6 string bridge sitting around 1/16" higher on the bass side than the same point on the 12 string bridge. The treble ends on both are the same height off the body, and neither have been adjusted since I bought the guitar. When I got the guitar, the bass end of the 6 string bridge sat about a full 1/8" or so higher than it is now (see measurements below). The truss rod isn't "stuck", it seems to be full loose (unless it works like the "bi-flex" adjustment referenced earlier in this thread). "xtra heavies"; That's kind of what my inital thoughts were. I've a feeling that's my next step. Thanks! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Some other measurements that might be helpful. These are all the low E string, open (unfretted). At nut, fingerboard to string; 3/64" (0.04688") 1st fret to string; 2/64" (1/32") (0.03125") 7th fret to string; 5/64" (0.07812") 12th fret to string; 6.5/64" (0.10156") 15th fret (neck/body joint) to string; 7/64" (0.10938") 20th fret to string; 8/64" (1/8") (0.12500") Body to bottom of bridge, bass side; 22/64" (11/32") (0.34375") Body to bottom of bridge, treble side; 15/64" (0.23438") **Approximate height, body to bottom of bridge prior to adjustment; 15/32" (0.46875")** TIA! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The truss rod isn't "stuck"' date=' it seems to be full loose (unless it works like the "bi-flex" adjustment referenced earlier in this thread). [/quote'] Just to be clear. The trussrod is running the entire length of the neck(under the fretboard). I thought you were refering to the the trussrod hex-nut coming loose, right? I'm pretty sure if Epi uses bi-flex or double-adjustable trussrods they'd mention it as a feature... Sorry I don't do Imperial measurements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Just to be clear. The trussrod is running the entire length of the neck(under the fretboard). I thought you were refering to the the trussrod hex-nut coming loose' date=' right? I'm pretty sure if Epi uses bi-flex or double-adjustable trussrods they'd mention it as a feature... Sorry I don't do Imperial measurements. [/quote'] Yes..I'm referring to the allen head nut at the headstock being totally slack. So you're saying that although the adjuster might be totally slack, the rod itself might be bound up and a bit of a push might help things along? Nothing ventured, nothing gained....I'll give a bit of a push on it and see. Sorry....I'm just used to meauring things that way. The only time I really use metrics is temperature measurements in conjunction with computers (CPU and GPU temps). ;) "I'm pretty sure if Epi uses bi-flex or double-adjustable trussrods they'd mention it as a feature" My thoughts as well.... B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 So you're saying that although the adjuster might be totally slack' date=' the rod itself might be bound up and a bit of a push might help things along? Nothing ventured, nothing gained....I'll give a bit of a push on it and see. [/quote'] Yes...good luck...and you did read my "disclaimer" right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Yes...good luck...and you did read my "disclaimer" right? LOL...yes, "disclaimer" read and acknowledged. ;) *Mr B takes G-1275, sits on floor, braces back of body with knee and back of headstock on shoulder and gives the 6 string neck a couple "persuasion tugs" towards himself in the middle of the neck. Mr B then tunes the 6 string up one full step and puts the guitar in it's case for evaluation later today* Nothing ventured, nothing gained.... Let's see if this does the trick. Thanks again. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ron' date=' thanks for the reply. Here's my results. Taking an old 3" long metal ruler with one edge measuring in 64ths of an inch; Low E, fretted at 1st fret, measured at 7th fret = approx 1 1/2 64ths. So, lets for the sake of arguement call that 15/640 (basically 1.5/64ths). That equals 0.02344" Low E, fretted at neck/body joint (15th fret), measured at 7th = just under 1/64th" Call it .75/64" So, 75/6400" , which translates to 0.01172"[/quote'] I think you don't understand. The relief is checked while fretting at BOTH postions - using the string like a straight-edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 I think you don't understand. The relief is checked while fretting at BOTH postions -using the string like a straight-edge. If the neck is straight or back-bowed' date=' there will be no gap between the string and the frets. [/quote'] Ah....in the words of the immortal Bard; D'OH!!! (no wait....that was Homer Simpson...nevermind... ) It would have been best if I had made that measurement as you described (not as I misinterpreted) prior to my trying the tip(s) Ricochet suggested... I just took that measurement (as you meant it to be made) and there IS clearance at the 7th, not much (a bit less than 1/64th of an inch)....however, in "sighting" the neck now, after tweaking the neck and tuning up a step, there is a bit of relief in the neck. Not as much as the 12 string side, or my Dot....but it's definitely there. Perhaps Ricochet's tip(s) have indeed had an effect. I'm going to let the double neck sit in it's case for a day or two and see if it gains any more relief. I don't know if the neck tweaking or tuning up effected the change, but I want to give it a bit more time before I tune back down. Meanwhile, I've got this beautiful '01 Dot to play. I haven't even plugged it into my Peavy Bandit 112 yet...LOL. I've got a Zoom G1X effects pedal and I've just been playing thru that w/ headphones on. Plus, I've got some chores to do (vaccuum and iron my work clothes), and I want to watch the Cup race @ Bristol today.... GO #88!!!! ;) So I can let the G-1275 sit and let and changes happen over a couple days.... Thanks again! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA61 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Mr B, here is the thread I started last year after having the same problem as you. The consensus from RotcanX (who really seems to know his stuff!) was that yes, Epihone is now using bi-flex truss rods. Take a close look at your hex nut and see if it is inside a metal sleeve. Then look at some of your other guitars and see what they look like. You can clearly see the difference. http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highxj Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Interesting, I need to check mine out. I also have a '56 Reissue and my neck actually has a couple thou backbow. I pulled the TRC the other day to loosen the truss rod and it's already loose. Didn't try to keep backing it out but I'll check into that. BTW I use a Stew-Mac neck relief gauge with a dial indicator and usually set my necks with .004" or .005" relief. Beats the hell out of a straight edge and feeler gauges, great tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 Mr B' date=' here is the thread I started last year after having the same problem as you. The consensus from RotcanX (who really seems to know his stuff!) was that yes, Epihone is now using bi-flex truss rods. Take a close look at your hex nut and see if it is inside a metal sleeve. Then look at some of your other guitars and see what they look like. You can clearly see the difference. http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1824 I owe an overdue "thank you" to ya.... IT WORKED! After letting the G-1275 sit a few days after tweaking the neck, it moved no further than a very (VERY) slight relief. My first thought was "Well, maybe there's tension back on the truss rod adjuster again, and I'll back it off some more." Nope. So, while I was there with the allen wrench in hand, I figured "nothing ventured, nothing gained". I backed off the adjuster further and it started to tighten. A bit further and I started seeing relief in the neck. I actually went a bit too far and had to go back in after it settled for a few days as I had TOO much relief. CONFIRMED! It definitely has a bi-flex truss rod. Thanks again, and thanks also to all who replied. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlinjd Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 some epiphones do have double acting truss rods. i set a capo at the first fret, fret the string where it meets the body, then check around the 7th or 8th fret for your relief. you may use a ruler in 1/64ths but a feeler gauge is most precise. it should go without saying, check the condition of your frets, if the first is worn to hell and you do this obviously you're gonna get whacky readings... next, whoever up there told us fractions with decimals in them is a yahoo... back to the problem. rod is totally slack, no relief... someone up there suggested a jammed rod in its actual truss slot... its probable, it really is, but what are the odds. hes right, give it some shock by forcing it into relief ever so gently. this might also be the case of a misplaced truss anchor... as in, even with the nut off in your hands, that neck is stuck straight because thats where its been told to sit for life! there needs to be a certain backlash built right into the neck, 1/1000ths of an inch.... also, the truss could have been tight for so long its programmed the wood to stay straight - which is most likely the case... time to offer it some artificial up-bow! and i mean, reprogram some relief into it. i do this by clamping the guitar to your workbench, taking some smooth twine whatever ya got, and basically pulling up on the neck mechanically, just a bit. tie it off. and walk away. check on it in a few days, see how tight your string/twine is, it should have slacked a tad. maybe bring it up taunt again. walk away. this process can take forever, haha. obviously don't be too generous with the tension, you don't want a neck thats all loosie goosie wobbly now do ya? this may sound weird to you, but you have to remember, wood has memory. and all you have to do is give it new memories, like a family vacation or something... ah, yes, some players may like a 'straight neck' - but this just doesn't agree with the physics of a vibrating string in tension... at all, ever... thats another story. on with the double acting rod. yeah, there should be a sleeve (for the cheap epi style) basically as you loosen the nut it jams up against the sleeve and begins to backbow on the rod. if the nut is loose, its basically in a neutral position. now, if the anchor happened to be placed in a spot where the neck was straight, in the neutral - with your loose nut (in neutral) the neck will be straight. if sooo, to put relief into your impossibly straight neck, its a simple operation of just keep on backing off your nut until you got your relief you'd like. always note, relief has nothing to do with action (it does, but it doesn't... hahaha) another note, always keep your truss nuts lubed!!! double acting rods present a lubing challenge. i always shift em to neutral. in the bottom of the hex nut, there is the tiniest lil' hole. get out your syringe and wick in oil, bring the nut up to tension one way, back through neutral to tension the other way, over and over. wick in more oil. same process - just work some oil into the hole is all... and that does it. i covered a wide variety of topics and problems, hopefully its one or the other or by now you've solved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA61 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 You're welcome Mr B! I'm glad I could help! I couldn't find anything on bi-flex truss rods on Epi's at all. Some definately have them though and they work GREAT! Good luck with you're new guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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