Synapse ss 2f: which tremolo for this guitar?

[ddm]

Hallo,

 

I would replace my ss f2 fixed bridge with a floating one. I heard the R trem bears problem with string spacing. Do you you know if a TT could take place onto this guitar or, alternatively, is there any chance for the Kahler tremolo system to be applayed on?

 

Thank you.

[Eagle]

The Kahler has no proper tuning only fine tuners.and the TT /S and XS are the same spacing as the R. so no. In theory a Floyd speed loader system could be fitted with extensive alteration but I wouldn't go there.

Buy a whammy pedal.

[ddm]

Thank you very much

[headlost]

Hello!

While the Synapse guitar string spacing is slightly wider than the R/S/TT/XS trems, in this respect the final result would be only to have the same string spacing from E to E, equal to any other series Steinberger guitar, US-made and Spirit series too.

So the strings would sit a bit more comfortably over the also slightly wider Synapse fingerboard. You might choose to replace the headpice as well, or not, this would not be crucial...

 

Anyway the installation of such trem should be done by a luthier, also in order to properly fill the small gaps around the trem (as the Synapse bridge footprint is also slightly wider). This would be done easier on a Standard Synapse (flat black or white), and a bit more demanding for a Costum version (because of the flame maple top).

By the way, I've got a spare, brand new R-trem with stainless rollers and arm, that I would not mind to trade for an equally mint Synapse bridge; just in case you'd be interested, we could exchange photos of each one.

 

I hope this helps, kindest regards,

JPB

[Eagle]

The difference is significant and the result would be poor particularly at the upper end . IF you did do it extensive routing would be required and without a refinish it would look bad . This is a lot of cost to go to to install an R Trem which is in effect a cheep licensed zinc unit that is suspect at best .

[headlost]

Hi again!

 

Now regarding the post by Eagle, yes as I said in the previous post, the work to fill the resulting gap properly, would have to be done by a luthier, as advanced wood working and finishing is strongly required.

Now regarding the R-trem, it is made out of zinc alloy indeed (Zamac), nevertheless this is the very same alloy as in the S-trem and T-trem, also the XS trem and the FX fixed bridge and so on...

I've already seen a T-trem belonging to one of the other forum's members, badly broken by the trem arm insert (as you've probably seen too).

Also the T-trems and S-trems do have a feature commonly recognized as killing sustain: those roller saddles... Fortunately the rest of these trems' construction, do compensate for this, mainly due to the ball bearings and also their significative mass.

 

On the other hand, the R-trem saddles do not have such rollers, only roll-shaped stainless pads, and being a very well engineered entire assembly (not split as S and T trems), it does offer a very good sustain and amazing, precise return to zero, even under severe bending, behaving much better than FR trems which are/were usually considered the best fulcrum system.

On the low side, some stiffness may occur in some units, when the string gauge used does not match perfectly the spring stiffness (a range of springs exists/existed, either marketed by Steinberger, or directly from their outsources). I've got two different stiffness springs (maybe 3, if yellow is not exactly the same as blue, not sure...; I've got a stiffer red as well).

Last but not least, even being a cheaper Steinberger System tremolo, despite its licenced status it was used in the very successful Steinberger GR series, in order to cut costs (also mounting SD passive pickups) without sacrificing much performance, and this aim was perfectly achieved.

 

And returning to this topic's initial question, our new coleague ddm does have two ways to choose from, one is least expensive but complicate as described above, otherwise he may keep chasing a Spirit or Hohner in eBay, until a good deal shows up...

Cheers,

 

JPB

[ddm]

Dear headlost and Eagle,

 

I really appreciate your counseiling and experience about this topic.

I am going to contact a luthier in order to evaluate the customization of the guitar.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Regards,

 

ddm

[Eagle]

The R trem has a very poor record for durability .It collapses in on its self with only string tension and is barely fit for purpose . I have replaced many and repaired more . Under no circumstances would I fit this unit if there is any alternative.

[headlost]

Dear Eagle:

 

I've got several well maintained R-trems and none shows any signs, of any kind of fatigue. Knife edges are very good indeed and their return to zero is much better and accurate than in similarly fulcrum FRs.

Every day we see pretty old Steinberger GRs and also pretty old Hohner G2-Ts, G3-Ts and The Jack guitars, all of them having perfectly functioning R-trems, not to mention a lot of Spirits that in the meantime have already seen much action too.

 

What does often happen, is that must users do switch to heavier gauge strings, but still keeping the same trem spring (there are three different R-trem springs).

This leads to excessive compression PERMANENTLY regulated on the original spring, what may cause the metal alloy deforming at certain points and also the main tuning knob's shaft thread may tend to strip (either the female thread or itself) due to poor lubrication (same problem with badly lubricated individual fine-tuners on any SB trem model).

 

Now I ask, would you blame your least expensive car, for using it with the wrong tires for that off-road way, or for not putting the required quantity of oil into the motor?

And about that broken Transtrem we've seen, made out of the same Zamac alloy...?

 

There is nothing absolutely unbreakable, but for this kind of part, I guess that a good Titanium alloy would forgive any wrong use of a trem without any kind of damage, but at what cost?

It's much cheaper to have some care with the regular stuff and to follow the recommendations when changing to anything not originally standard.

 

Cheers, JPB

[Eagle]

To compare the quality of the frankly awful R trem to a Original Floyd is laughable in terms of construction or performance. As a full time repair tech I see literally hundreds of guitars a year and have done for the last 20. My comments are based on this experience . I personally find the R trem an excellent design but manufactured at too lower cost and of unsuitable metals to withstand normal use .

A set of 9's strung up to tension will do for an R trem over time even if you don't use it. Sintered zinc is purely chosen for cost reasons and is as poor a choice on the TT2 as it is on the R.

 

All the best

 

Eagle

[headlost]

Dear Eagle:

 

I will not argue on your own experience, anyway my 9-42 sets did not harm any of the R-trems I own in any manner as I told you (maybe the Zamac-like alloy was still harder when those batches were made...).

I was even thinking about to part with a brand new R-trem I have aside, from the same era, but recently I decided to keep it for a new headless project.

So, I think that not all R-trems are that unstable, as also the GRs do usually have a very good performance and sell used for USD 1,000.00 or even more...

 

Now about the FR, I've tried them all, the Original is not so good when compared to the FRII made by Schaller, or the reverse-fulcrum Kahler Spyder (I own one of each), or even the Ibanez Edge/Lo Pro/Pro/Pro II trems; even some of the Edge III units are marginally better.

Steel-stamped trems are usually not the best choice, the VS100 being an exception, but this one's out of the FR-derivatives class anyway.

 

Cheers, JPB

[Eagle]

Your information about the OFR is wrong, the original is built by schallerand the baseplate is a casting. The best Floyd trems to date are the Gotoh 1996 and the Kahler steeler .The FRII and the Spyder have zinc baseplates and are both inferior in performance and tone to the two I listed. The Edge /Edge pro and Low Pro Edge are the only good ibanez Floyds and are all built by Gotoh and have hardened steel saddles. I have OFRs from all eras including one of the ones that Floyd built in his garage . If you want a Steinberger trem of similar quality the ONLY one is the TT 1.

[headlost]

Hi again, Eagle!

 

Thanks for your response.

Yes I know that the TT 1 parts were not cast from Zamac, but machined indeed, from brass billet.

Also heard that the OFR (I) was also made by Schaller, however unlike the FRII and the FR Pro, it has a thin steel baseplate (stamped of cast, then hardened?) and no replaceable knife edges as it's an integral build.

 

Now I must point out that, for the same kind of block underneath the baseplate, any thin steel baseplate trem will also have a thinner tone and a shorter sustain than massive designs, as mass matters, so zinc-based alloy trems must offer a greater tone sustain at least.

It's the first time that I hear that a OFR may be better than a FRII or FR Pro, or a Steeler better than a Spyder, or a Killer...

Also, all of those Ibanez trems you do consider good, and also the Edge Pro II and the Edge III, do have cast zinc-alloy baseplates anyway, the same for their blocks...

 

Electric guitars are just like record turntables: sensible electro-mechanical signal generators, made out of a lot of components and a lot of related variables, researched and assembled in an sound alchemy fashion.

Even thought the former are instruments, and the second are reproducers, both devices do have many physics principles in common for the builder to to care about, either in the same sense, or in opposite senses (tell this to those luthiers who made those fashioned, but rather silly, plexyglass bass bodies ;-).

In either case, if you do pursue a sound with body and stability, you'll need mass at some places, the same for stiffness.

 

Now, taking some learning from the comparison I made, you may try to find a good old Swiss-made Thorens, or Lenco record turntable, take the mat out, then the main platter, hold it by the mid hole edge and nail tap the periphery.

Without the "dead" mat nor the central platter/pulley, the zinc-alloy platter does ring a lot, a long time, so great sustain... And if zinc alloy is good enough for two of the best turntable makers of the world, within the high-precison Swiss engineering (even though it was used more due to the mass than for the acoustic properties, which had to be damped), why shouldn't it also be good for guitar tremolos and fixed bridges?

 

Cheers, JPB

[Eagle]

The OFR and FR pro have steel cast baseplates that have integrated knife edges.

It is not about mass ,it is about the ability to transfer the vibration and hardened steel is substantially better at this particularly if milled from billet.

Not all zinc castings are bad in terms of musicality and durability it is only the sintered ones that are really poor (steinberger hardware unfortunately.) Liquid cast zinc sounds better (gotoh /Ibanez Japan.)

The requirements of a turntable platter are utterly different ,heavy and dead are not good in guitar hardware. The finest guitar hardware is made from steel,and aluminium and occasionally parts are brass, no high end parts are sintered zinc .

 

All the best

 

 

Eagle

[headlost]

Hi!

By the way, here is a good, precise overview of all Zamac variants used for casting, including their properties:

http://www.eazall.com/diecastalloys.aspx

 

Cheers, JPB

[Eagle]

Thanks