b grade epiphone les pauls are they fakes ?

[ronskie]

ok last 3 images are too big to load and 2 of those were nice shots of the headstock. Never mincd the pics were not great quality anyway, thanks for your comments. I will post what happens regarding amazons reply to what I have said about a lot of their guitar sellers and if I get refund etc. Thanks for your help.

[AlanH]

So far, I'm seeing machine heads and volume/tone pots slightly misaligned. Grovers and stickers look like Epi supplied ones. Would be good to see the headstock lettering. If you're careful not to strip the screw threads you'd be OK to try and have a look in the pots cavity at the wood to see if it is MDF or ply. You won't damage the wiring inside.

 

If the seller does give a direct refund I think that his 'honesty' would go some way to backing up the story which he sees no wrong in. Please let us know.

 

Alan

[ronskie]

alanh I pointed out to amazon before my guitar even came that one buyer had left a comment regarding the company he bought it from, saying it was a fake and amazon told me they can't discuss companies with customers or potential customers because of data protection but I did notice that that company had 9 guitars with amazon and shortly after none. So I can only assume amazon pulled them and they didn't just sell a whole load of guitars in half a day. Point is though that if as I suspect most of amazons sellers for epiphones are selling fakes/ b grade ones then amazon should blow data protection and tell their customers that there's a widescale problem but of course they wont to protect their own profits from the commission.

[ronskie]

just to add that your so right alanh because most of the customer comments for these guitars on amazon all say the guitar was great and one even said I had doubts but it's the real deal)I am sure he was wrong though) but to be honest my guitar looks like the real deal. these fakes/ reconditioned or whatever you want to call them are so good it's hard to tell. will try to send some more pics tomorrow when it's daylight and may open up to check electrics and take pic but I have no idea what the electrics should look like lol will be keeping this post or another up to date with developments.

[ronskie]

deleted some pics to get this one uploaded

[ronskie]

[AlanH]

deleted some pics to get this one uploaded

 

 

To me, the logo itself looks OK (although it's blurred) but it doesn't look like it's been centred correctly. It could be the angle of the shot that's caused that.

 

Try to get some pics in daylight with a reasonable Megapixel camera and without shake. Take photos of the body front and headstock rear and front dead straight on so we can see any misalignments and the logo detail. If you can get a close up photo of the wiring and wood inside the control cavity that would be good too. It's all good evidence for you if you have a dispute.

 

Alan

[ronskie]

to be honest I think the seller really does believe the guitar is a second or b grade and I am sure his contact in china told him that and he believes them along with the fact they buy them from the factory and finish the guitars as he puts it but that may just be a made up story by the sellers contact so the seller buys them from him or it may actually be true. They may be just be complete fakes, who knows. I not being an expert definately believe the grovers to be genuine and the stickers and I also think the booklet and guitar brochure/ poster thingy with it was genuine too. They did not look faded or copied on a copy machine, so how did they get a hold of genuine booklets etc is what I want to know.

[ronskie]

I compared the guitar booklet and glossy poster thing with all the different epiphone guitars on it with the same ones from the defo original special 2 I have and they are identical so no fading or signs of repoduction. Damn good job that would fool most people who didn't know better. Aint got a camera so no can do but will try to get pic of electrics etc tomorrow. But on inspection of good pics of fakes on another website my guitar has screws in the pickguard close to the edge rather than nearer the middle, the logo looks off centre, the pots are like I said before not straight across from each other or in line with the pickguard screw and the vertical slits through the top of the "o" and "p" in the word epiphone in the headstock which you can't see from my pics. so all in all my guitasr failed on all 4 of the fake pics I saw.

[Steven Lister]

ronskie, for your benefit and everyone worldwide, make direct contact with Epiphone/Gibson and involve them in this open transaction.

 

If it's for real, it's almost too good to be believed --- and the best damn evidence Epiphone/Gibson ever had handed to them --- a black and white paper trail, identifying shipper, shipping points, dates/times, and parcel number. In case anybody missed any of it, here it is again:

 

The guitar was shipped from Qingdao,China.

China is the place of origin. The guitar was made in Gibson Qingdao(China) Plant.

 

 

Parcel number: EC370104955GB

--------------

05-11-2010 12:44 Glasgow Central Depot Delivered

05-11-2010 07:11 Glasgow Central Depot Loaded to vehicle for delivery

05-11-2010 04:53 Glasgow Central Depot Received at delivery depot

04-11-2010 10:39 National Hub Received and processed

04-11-2010 07:26 International Hub Forwarded for UK processing

03-11-2010 17:55 International Hub Awaiting Customs clearance

03-11-2010 17:54 International Hub Received in destination country

31-10-2010 08:21 Delivery Agent - EMSEVT QINGDAO Forwarded for export

30-10-2010 11:01 Delivery Agent - CHINA Collected from customer

 

----------------

 

BLOODY FREEGIN' EXCELLENT WORK Ol' CHAP!

 

With that info and the name of the Amazon seller that you are in contact with, Epiphone should be able to easily investigate and finally close that back door of their factory --- if they care to do so. It's your guitar (for now) but given the situation, I recommend waiting until Epiphone and Amazon instruct you as to what they want you to do. They may want to inspect the evidence more closely. Why defeat that by sending it back quickly?

 

Granted that at best, photos are so imprecise. In this case thay are of poor quality and little practical use, except they are adequate to raise multiple red flags – all of which point to yet another EPI 3rd to my eyes.

 

ronskie, as a reward for this excellent lead, I make a motion that Epiphone give you your choice from their current catalog a brand new authorized LP Standard (or better). While the scoundrels may figure out a new way to beat the system again tomorrow, this may very well cause a screeching halt today.

Again, congratulations, terrific work!

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

[Barcham]

It has been posted many times on this and other forums...no Epiphone guitar is shipped directly from Gibson/Epiphone Qingdao to any vendor. They all have to be processed and inspected at a Gibson/Epiphone facility before being shipped to stores. Any advertisement for any Epiphone guitar that states it is being shipped directly from the factory is a foolproof indication of a fake product. There are no exceptions.

 

The best way to proceed is to contact Gibson directly and provide all information possible as well as decent quality photos of the guitar. They will confirm that the guitar is not the genuine article and you should send this information to Amazon who should act on it. You should also contact Paypal or your credit card company, whichever you used to pay for the guitar, and inform them of the situation. You should not return the guitar to the seller as this will only lead to it being sold to another unsuspecting buyer. Technically, you could also be charged with trafficking in counterfeit merchandise if you return it.

 

Finally, the seller is very much aware of the fact that he is selling counterfeit guitars. He may seem to be very sincere and convincing in his communications but that is simply part of his strategy to avoid legal complications.

[ronskie]

I understand all this but the seller when doing a refund only can do it through amazon as they have never had my card details, amazon have them and amazon say no refund will be given until I return the guitar and once returned the seller will then contact amazon who in turn will issue a refund which they then claim back off the seller. Now I know this isn't perfect and in theory I should keept the guitar etc but in all honesty in the real world were I barely get by on incapacity benefit because I am partially disabled the 200 odd pound I payed is a lot of money to me and had to be saved up. I have told amazon about the fakes on their website sold by third party sellers guitar shops and I will inform Gibson or whoever too but getting my hard saved money back is my top priority. Gibson can look after themselves as far as having property security at their overseas factories or trying to crack down on complete fakes. I don't think this guitar is a complete fake though. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion it's an inside job, too many things about the guitar are genuine along with the fake parts which seem to me to be the volume and tone controls and bits and pieces. Having looked inside it appears the real deal as far as not being a mdf/plywood fake and it aint painted black either inside as suggested by some fake commentators. I of course don't want it despite all this and having played it a bit today it sounds fine actually. I have ordered a new one from a legit dealer now and put my deposit down on it while awaiting what to do next with amazon.

[Barcham]

ronski, have you considered filing a fraud complaint with your credit card company? If you can back it up with a confirmation from Gibson, it may be enough to get them to reverse the charges on your card. It is not an issue of the seller issuing a refund. He has sold you a counterfeit item and that is against the law. It's not like he shipped you a shirt in the wrong size or colour, this guy has broken the law. You are well within your rights to file a fraud claim with your local law enforcement agency.

 

As for it being an inside job, that is highly unlikely. I might be able to swallow that with the previous Asian subcontracted guitar makers, but not with Gibson's own factory. I think the chances of that are slim and none.

 

I repeat...contact Gibson and get confirmation that your guitar is a fake. Then contact your credit card company and Amazon and do not back down. The law has been broken and you are not the one who has committed a crime. If Amazon does not issue a refund, they can be held responsible as an accessory. Stand up for your rights and make sure that you get your hard earned money back.

[AlanH]

I understand all this but the seller when doing a refund only can do it through amazon as they have never had my card details, amazon have them and amazon say no refund will be given until I return the guitar and once returned the seller will then contact amazon who in turn will issue a refund which they then claim back off the seller. Now I know this isn't perfect and in theory I should keept the guitar etc but in all honesty in the real world were I barely get by on incapacity benefit because I am partially disabled the 200 odd pound I payed is a lot of money to me and had to be saved up. I have told amazon about the fakes on their website sold by third party sellers guitar shops and I will inform Gibson or whoever too but getting my hard saved money back is my top priority. Gibson can look after themselves as far as having property security at their overseas factories or trying to crack down on complete fakes. I don't think this guitar is a complete fake though. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion it's an inside job, too many things about the guitar are genuine along with the fake parts which seem to me to be the volume and tone controls and bits and pieces. Having looked inside it appears the real deal as far as not being a mdf/plywood fake and it aint painted black either inside as suggested by some fake commentators. I of course don't want it despite all this and having played it a bit today it sounds fine actually. I have ordered a new one from a legit dealer now and put my deposit down on it while awaiting what to do next with amazon.

 

Also being from the UK, as yourself, I agree with your course of action. You can't rely on Epi to come up trumps and gift you a guitar for keeping this as evidence. But, there's no harm in emailing them as per the instructions on the Epiphone counterfeit sticky thread to say that you're going to return it through Amazon for a full refund. They then have the opportunity to offer you some compensation if they really do want the guitar as evidence. Please do take some good quality photos (borrow somebody else's digital camera if you only have the phone camera you've been using.)

 

Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

Alan

[AlanH]

It has been posted many times on this and other forums...no Epiphone guitar is shipped directly from Gibson/Epiphone Qingdao to any vendor. They all have to be processed and inspected at a Gibson/Epiphone facility before being shipped to stores. Any advertisement for any Epiphone guitar that states it is being shipped directly from the factory is a foolproof indication of a fake product. There are no exceptions.

 

 

 

Yes, but you're refering to the official Gibson procedure.

 

The shipping document just says it was shipped from Qingdao, not directly from the Qingdao Epiphone factory. Qingdao being a town in China. The amazon third party seller has stated in his explanation that these guitars are unwanted/surplus guitars from that factory that have been assembled elsewhere.

 

Ronskie seems pretty sure that many of the parts of the guitar are genuine, inlcuding the all important neck and body; but that there are flaws or substitutions. As he also has another Epiphone Les Paul - a Special II, I am confident that his assessment is correct.

 

Alan

[Barcham]

If you consider the fact that there are indeed factory 2nd or blemished Epis on the market, legally I must add, and they are stamped as such on the headstock and have a new serial number over the original which has usually been defaced, it is highly unlikely that rejected guitars from the factory would be allowed to leave the factory with the serial number and Epiphone logo intact. Not to mention that there are quality control stickers on the back of the guitar claiming that it has passed inspection. Having sub-quality guitars being sold with the Epi logo on the headstock is detrimental to the reputation of the brand and would be a high priority for Gibson to prevent.

 

Can you imagine any major company that manufactures any product, even if it's a brand name t-shirt, allowing their rejected product to be sold with the company logo on it? It simply is not going to happen.

 

What do you expect the seller to say? He isn't exactly about to admit that he's selling counterfeit guitars, is he? I don't care where in the world you happen to live, that would still be copyright and trademark violation, fraud and who knows what other laws are being broken in the process. The seller is a criminal, no matter what way you look at it. And criminals are not usually in the habit of admitting that fact.

 

It would be nice if someone from Epiphone could actually step in to this discussion and add a bit of clarity to the situation. This is a Gibson company board after all.

[AlanH]

If you consider the fact that there are indeed factory 2nd or blemished Epis on the market, legally I must add, and they are stamped as such on the headstock and have a new serial number over the original which has usually been defaced, it is highly unlikely that rejected guitars from the factory would be allowed to leave the factory with the serial number and Epiphone logo intact. Not to mention that there are quality control stickers on the back of the guitar claiming that it has passed inspection. Having sub-quality guitars being sold with the Epi logo on the headstock is detrimental to the reputation of the brand and would be a high priority for Gibson to prevent.

 

Can you imagine any major company that manufactures any product, even if it's a brand name t-shirt, allowing their rejected product to be sold with the company logo on it? It simply is not going to happen.

 

What do you expect the seller to say? He isn't exactly about to admit that he's selling counterfeit guitars, is he? I don't care where in the world you happen to live, that would still be copyright and trademark violation, fraud and who knows what other laws are being broken in the process. The seller is a criminal, no matter what way you look at it. And criminals are not usually in the habit of admitting that fact.

 

It would be nice if someone from Epiphone could actually step in to this discussion and add a bit of clarity to the situation. This is a Gibson company board after all.

 

Yes, I'd like to see them make a comment but, so far, they've denied that backdoor Epis/factory thirds exist. It's not the sort of thing they could admit to knowing about though.

 

You could argue that Steven Lister and I have a little bit of a conspiracy theory going on but you could equally argue that you are viewing the world through rose tinted spectacles. It's very plausible to me that, in a country like China, staff or management would see nothing wrong in not wasting guitar bodies which have been machined too incorrectly to even be sold as a second. Official seconds have minor flaws or 'blemishes' as you say. The flaws we generally see on the ebay and amazon 'fakes' that are for sale are misaligned tuners/pots and unofficial hardware/electronics. Otherwise, these guitars are as good as the bone fide Epis in terms of their quality. What else could they do with bodies that don't make the grade? They can't be sold on legitimately to other manufacturers because they are the offical Les Paul shape.

 

If I were going to make and sell fake Epis, I'd buy the cheapest LP copies available (e.g. the sort of cheap guitars you see for sale in mail order catalogues) and just put Epi logos on it. You'd make a hell of a lot more profit that way.

 

I'm sure that Epiphone know more about this than they are prepared to let on.

 

Alan

[Barcham]

Have you noticed the volume of fake Epis being sold out there? If they are all coming from the Epi factory, there's no possible way that it's not being noticed. Gibson has also shut down a number of these operations in the last few years with the help of law enforcement. If your theory held any water, which I do not think it does, Gibson/Epiphone would have shut down any possibility of this happening a long time ago.

 

You also have to take into consideration the fact that most of the fakes have exactly the same flaws. If they were actually guitars that were defective or rejects in some way, the flaws would be different from guitar to guitar.

 

Conspiracy theories are so easy to start and believe because you don't have to provide any proof to back them up. When you take a long hard look at them, they usually fall apart quite easily.

 

If you want a very good look at the business of Epiphone fakes, I suggest you go and look at the Fake Epiphone threads on MyLesPaul.com. It might open your eyes a bit.

[brianh]

I don't buy the conspiracy theory either. China has a population of 1.3 billion people, and a very entrepreneurial culture that has a long history of copyright and trademark infringement in every conceivable product category.

 

There are bound to be a few current or ex-factory employees who are going to find a way to leverage their knowledge, experience, stolen CNC codes, etc. and use it to make a buck.

 

That's ineviatble when you take your technology and manufacturing expertise offshore, and it should surprise no one.

[ronskie]

I have emailed epiphone and amazon and am awaiting replies from both. Here's my thoughts. It is true that if it were thirds from the factory you would see differences in the faults, it would not be uniformed flaws, however a way to explain this would be to say the bodywood etc would have different flaws as to deem them thirds but whoever is assembling them outside the factory could be uniformingly putting the pots, pickguard screws etc in the wrong place and not knowing their mistake and thus that would explain the same faults turning up time and time again. My headstock is not conclusively a fake because it isn't clear whether it's done wrong or not. The clear evidence with mine is the pots, screws and the serial being not found on that website, but again that was explained to me why it might not show up on the website and surely they could get their hands on genuine serials easily rather than use a made up one. I think at the very least we are talking about some collusion between factory employees or ex employees to be able to do fakes that are so good and appear to be using the main more expensive ingredients of the true guitars. I have seen pics of some definite fakes and some of them don't use the right tuners or pickups and looking inside obviously botch the electrics job. My point(and I don't know if they are fake or inside jobs)is why use all the right and expensive equipment to make a fake and reduce your profit margin when you could use cheap tuners, pickups etc. I can only speak of my guitar from personal experience and as far as mine goes it definitely has grover tuners the right pickups, proper done electrics - and based on weight and looking inside - the proper maple etc too, so in my case if it's a fake they went to a hellava lot of trouble to do it so right as to almost be ok to charge the money they did and more.

Anyway my new guitar coming on wednesday from official dealer. I borrowed the money from my girlfriend while awaiting when and if I will be compensated to pay her back. Thanks for your comments everybody. It aint beyond the realms of possibility we have a two prong problem here, the fakes and a small collection of individuals having inside help. I have worked in very big factories in my time including microsoft windows factory and believe me if there is a will there is a way to get stuff out and in without any suspicion, workers themselves I believe couldn't do it maybe but possibly corrupt supervisors and or managers could. I also know that of course the seller would lie and make up the thirds story to hide behind the fact they are complete fakes. I also know the bottom line is we are dealing with some sort of fraud here and at some level the seller is in it up to their necks. Thanks again.

[RobinTheHood]

supersonic 101 am I correct in thinking your comment meant the little slits in the "o" and "p" are supposed to be there? because I phoned the registered gibson dealer in glasgow to check my guitar with him and he said the slashes in the "o" and "p" was a sign it was a fake. so basically the "o" is not a complete circle there's a littleverticle slash at the top. That's what he told me anyway.

Your Gibson dealer in Glasgow doesnt know what he's talking about. Yes, the open tops are supposed to be there. Its more likely that a closed top "p" and "o" are more indicative of a counterfeit. And the quality of the Epiphone inlay is really no measure for determining authenticity. We've seen genuine Epiphones with logo inlays that looked like a 3rd grade art class cut them out. The QC on the logo inlays is minimal at best. Of course, positioning is a little bit of a different matter.

[ronskie]

rth yeah your right, I have since seen some pics of real ones and they do indeed have the slit through the "o" and "p" but that's what they told me at "guitar guitar" which has shops all over Britain and is an authentic gibson dealer. As far as you saying some of the real ones have bad or poorly done logos and inlays then surely the quality control isn't that good if these are passing inspection and if that's the case then it makes it harder to tell fakes if the real ones are sometimes a bit shoddy. The positioning of the logo on mine is ever so slightly off(I think) so it's kinda hard to tell for definite.

[RobinTheHood]

rth yeah your right, I have since seen some pics of real ones and they do indeed have the slit through the "o" and "p" but that's what they told me at "guitar guitar" which has shops all over Britain and is an authentic gibson dealer. As far as you saying some of the real ones have bad or poorly done logos and inlays then surely the quality control isn't that good if these are passing inspection and if that's the case then it makes it harder to tell fakes if the real ones are sometimes a bit shoddy. The positioning of the logo on mine is ever so slightly off(I think) so it's kinda hard to tell for definite.

I noticed the position of the logo on your guitar is quite high. I didnt really compare the distance from the sides, but the height position jumped out at me. Typically, Epiphone are pretty spot on when it comes to where the logo goes, as opposed to how well it was cut. Like I said, we have seen some pretty sloppy logos, but sometimes there are determining factors in the logo inlays to help indentify it as a counterfeit. You just cant use it as a lone factor, and sometime not at all.

[AlanH]

Have you noticed the volume of fake Epis being sold out there? If they are all coming from the Epi factory, there's no possible way that it's not being noticed. Gibson has also shut down a number of these operations in the last few years with the help of law enforcement. If your theory held any water, which I do not think it does, Gibson/Epiphone would have shut down any possibility of this happening a long time ago.

 

You also have to take into consideration the fact that most of the fakes have exactly the same flaws. If they were actually guitars that were defective or rejects in some way, the flaws would be different from guitar to guitar.

 

Conspiracy theories are so easy to start and believe because you don't have to provide any proof to back them up. When you take a long hard look at them, they usually fall apart quite easily.

 

If you want a very good look at the business of Epiphone fakes, I suggest you go and look at the Fake Epiphone threads on MyLesPaul.com. It might open your eyes a bit.

 

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist really.

 

If I were I'd be telling you that these Epi thirds are being assembled in a capsule on the moon by Elvis and Marilyn Monroe. Of course that would be impossible..............

 

........which is why they would have to be transported back and forth by alien technology.

 

 

Seriously, Ronskie points out very clearly that the wherewithall is often there to steal and pass on confidential information in a factory/plant situation. That and the apparent disregard for making these fakes profitable is why I think the Epi third theory is plausible.

 

Alan

[AlanH]

Anyway Ronskie.....

 

What are you getting and where from......Guitar Guitar? They are a good store, IMO.

 

Alan