AlanC Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 I'm about to purchase what I understand to be a 1948 Gibson archtop (f holes). I've seen it, held it but I don't have access to it right now. Its in good condition (orange/black vintage sunburst), a great neck and a single neck P90 pickup. I understand but I'm not sure that the model is a 150 or something. Can anyone help as to what it may be and what would be a similar sized guitar in today's product range? Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Might it be an ES125? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 19, 2008 Author Share Posted August 19, 2008 Yes it might be. I knopw that the pick plate on mine is a replacement and is different to the one in the photo above and the volume/tone knobs don't have any numbers. I need to look at the tail piece. Coloring is similar probably just the effects of age. Much appreciated. Regards, Alan C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 But than again it might not be. I've just looked at my tattered copy of Ian Bishop's "The Gibson Guitar Since 1950" and see that the ES125 was only introduced in 1956. Any chance of a picture? Failing that, what about the neck? Dot inlays or something else? Bound? What markings on the headstock? Is the P90 a dog-ear or a soap-bar? Are you paying big dollars or not such big dollars? This may help indicate whether it is a laminate or a carved top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Here's an ES150 with a Charlie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 I don't pick it up until mid next week but I now believe that it is a Gibson ES150. It looks like both the ES125 above and the ES150 although I have been told that the ES150 has greater depth than the ES125. Also the pickup looks like the P90 soapbar (ES125) not like the straightbar pickup in Robin Nahum's reply. Its not that cheap but its got lots of life left in it. Still got neck adjustment capacity (not needed as next is like an F1 racing car). Paitwork is really good and there are no marks on it except on the back of the neck which I didn't notice when I played it. It is capable of being played regularly without making any allowances for its age. But the best thing about it is its great sound. It just kills some of my other guitars. Thanks for the help. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Love to see pictures. RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Hey AClayton-- I wish you had run a search on ES-150 and ES-125 because this distinction has been discussed numerous times in the vintage folder of the forums. The distinction and dating of an ES-125 and ES-150 are fairly easy. First off, you need a measurement of the lower bout (the widest point of the guitar's hips): if the instrument is post-WWII and that lower bout measurement is 16" or 16-1/4", then the instrument is an ES-125. If it is 17", then it is an ES-150. No wiggle room here. That is the deciding factor. Don't bother looking at control knobs, tuning machines, or the pickguard because these all often have been replaced. (I believe, for instance, that the controls in the picture above are replacements although I could be mistaken.) Tuning machine heads and pickguards especially are frequently replaced on these models because they were made from unstable materials that did not last well over the decades. The tailpiece will not be a helpful distinguishing factor either because both the ES-125 and the ES-150 have the same tailpiece (which is identical to the one above if it is original). If tuners, controls, and pickguard were to be original, then we have a LOT of info that we could use to date this instrument within a few years or so, but it is unlikely that anyone can name a specific year for the instrument unless they have sales receipts, etc. Often, these guitars don't even have serial numbers anymore because they were merely inkstamped in the body in a blue ink highly prone to fading. (We can date ES-125s in a certain period, however, if we have their fret count, which changed at one point and can be cross-referenced with other parts of the guitar to date within a couple year window.) Depth has nothing to do with the difference. There was an ES-125T, which was a thinline, but both the ES-125 and ES-150 are full-depth guitars (i.e, about 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches thick, depending on where you measure), so I think your source is mistaken, unless he or she meant "width" rather than "depth." How does the seller know that it is a 1948? The ES-125 was made from 1940 to 1970 (sorry, Robin, Bishop is wrong on that count) with a break during WWII. The ES-150 was made from 1936-1956, also with a break during WWII. Guitars of these models made after WWII have silk-screened goldish Gibson logos on the headstock. Does the guitar have dot inlay or trapezoid inlay fretmarkers? Pre-WWII models of both guitars do look different from their post-WWII counterparts, but if the one you are looking at has a P-90 like that pictured above in the thread, then it is safely post WWII, and the lower bout measurement is the key: if it is less than 17", it is not an ES-150. (True, before WWII, these were only 16-1/4" inches, but they also then had Charlie Christian pickups). I have an ES-125. They are nice guitars, but they are not as valuable as ES-150s so you need to clarify which model you are looking at before you buy. This could affect the value by easily as much as $500-1000 (the ES-150 is worth that much more than an ES-125). [All these prices are American dollars, by the way, so you'll need to do the exchange rate.] Unless the guitar is mint, you probably should not pay more than $1500 for an ES-125, and I would try to get the seller under $1000 (ideally, I think $700-800 is a good price for a nice playing but "relic" version of these guitars, if you know what I mean--and up to $1000-1100 for one in good shape). Be sure to check binding around the body to see if it is pulling away at any place. This is a common problem with these guitars, and unless you are careful, once the binding starts pulling away, you will have a lot pulling loose and need to invest in repairs. Such binding pull may just look like "cracks" between the body piece and the white/amber binding. Also check where the body of the guitar meets the heel of the neck. If there is a large crack there, you may be facing a guitar needing a neck reset: this is VERY expensive (minimum $500) and time-consuming, and if the problem is there, it usually does need to be fixed eventually or the guitar will not stay in tune well. Also check whether the frets are still good. If there are worn frets and scoops occuring in the fretboard (especially along the lower frets and higher strings), you are looking at a minimum of $300 for a re-fret. All these potential costs should come off the top of the price you offer, and I would pass entirely if it looks like the guitar needs a neck reset. These can be great guitars, but if they need work, you can drop a LOT of money on them real fast so you should not pay top dollar for a fixer-upper. Remember, too, that mint means mint: like it just came from the factory. If it looks like it's been played at all, it is not a mint vintage guitar so you should not pay mint prices. Mint is a term from the coin collecting world, and it means that a coin looks like it came straight from the the coin presses: any wear at all makes a coin non-mint. In the hyper-valued guitar world, people try to tell you a nice old guitar is mint. Well, it ain't if there is finish checking, wear on the fretboard, any dings at all, or even finish fading. Your chances of finding a mint ES-125 or ES-150 are almost zero because they were Gibson's student/entry models of the day. They were made to play, and they were played. That so many still exist is a testament to their quality. By the way, if it is an ES-125, don't be afraid to pass on it if it isn't good enough. The ES-125 outsold all other Gibson models (including the Les Paul and ES-335!!) until the mid-1960s. There are a lot of ES-125s around, and good ones can be found. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Wow! Great post! RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Wow! Great post! RN Hey Robin-- Thanks for the nice comment! I haven't been posting much around here lately because it is hard to spend twenty or thirty minutes writing and revising a post--and then have no one comment on it at all. I want to be helpful, but it's nice to get an acknowledgment once in a while that the work is worth it. Thanks again, Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 I too thank you for your time. Sharing knowledge with people who share your interest is an honorable thing. Murph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 And thank you as well, Murph! Your comments are very kind. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 Ignatious, thanks for the information - really useful. It is an ES150 and I've checked that the body binding is in tact, paintwork is great - no cracks that I can see, frets have got lots of life etc. Its really in great condition and is able to be played without regard to its age. The only downside is that the price is above the range that you've mentioned and above what I've seen in guitar price books. At the moment it's being set up and I pick it up in two days. Can't wait!! Regards, AlanC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Ignatious' date=' thanks for the information - really useful. It is an ES150 and I've checked that the body binding is in tact, paintwork is great - no cracks that I can see, frets have got lots of life etc. Its really in great condition and is able to be played without regard to its age. The only downside is that the price is above the range that you've mentioned and above what I've seen in guitar price books. At the moment it's being set up and I pick it up in two days. Can't wait!! Regards, AlanC.[/quote'] Hey Alan-- Well, let me put the whole pricing thing in another perspective if I may: if the guitar will make you play more and play better, and if it is a good guitar that you don't see everyday on the market (which it sounds like this one is), then you paid the right price for you. Remember, my prices were for an ES-125: an ES-150 in good to very good condition could cost easily $500-1000 (US) more than an ES-125. Then, you put that little bit on the top when you find the one that is the right guitar for you, and you still have a deal if you are planning to keep it. I'm always being tough on vintage pricing around here so that people don't add the "personal extra" on top of the overpriced element. But if this is it, "the guitar that will take you places," then it's worth every dime in my opinion. Last summer, I spent more on repairs to my ES-125 than I ever thought I would pay to fix up a guitar, and it was worth every cent because it is now my regular, play-everyday instrument that is making me a better musician. How can you put a price on that? A good vintage guitar that fits you like a perfectly-worn pair of favorite jeans is worth a fortune in my book--even if it is just an ES-125 for me. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Hi Ignatius, You might wish to note that US prices for guitars and amps do not translate to Australian prices via a simple currency conversion. In Australia, they tend to be a lot more expensive for various reasons - import costs, duty, vendor risk, what the market will bear etc. I have seen a c. 1959 ES125 (admittedly at one of the more expensive vintage shops) for over $3,000 but even if you knock off 33%.... RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 Ignatius - Really appreciated your response. Made me feel better about the price. Thanks a lot. Regards, AlanC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Hi Ignatius' date=' You might wish to note that US prices for guitars and amps do not translate to Australian prices via a simple currency conversion. In Australia, they tend to be a lot more expensive for various reasons - import costs, duty, vendor risk, what the market will bear etc. I have seen a c. 1959 ES125 (admittedly at one of the more expensive vintage shops) for over $3,000 but even if you knock off 33%.... RN[/quote'] Excellent points, Robin. I often forget about all those import costs, etc. that go on top of the price. I don't know if this is true in Australia, but overall, the vintage market is very overheated here in the U.S.; the current economic downturn is bringing prices back down, but they still are pretty intense: according to the prices I'm seeing these days, my ES-125 has TRIPLED in value in ten years. That to me is an overheated market. But as you say, other countries have very different issues with the vintage market. (I was at least hoping that I would get brownie points for remembering not everyone spends U.S. dollars!) Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Ignatius - Really appreciated your response. Made me feel better about the price. Thanks a lot. Regards' date=' AlanC.[/quote']And I meant it, too, AlanC! Of course, we need a full report (with pictures if possible) once you get it home and get to really enjoy it for a while. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 So I've picked it up and played it. It's unbelievably good. For me and I can say this because I've got and had other archtops including a 2005 L5, a 1952 Maton Supreme and a Herb Ellis ES165 none of which sound as good as this. Ignatius - it has dots on the fretboard. There is no serial number that I can see - nothing on the back of the head and nothing that I can see inside the body. On the front of the head it has Gibson but not like the Charlie Christian one above. The Gibson on this is more like the modern style. What's not original is the pick plate and the tone/volume controls. The wood on the back has lovely figuring in a very dark brown colour which is a slightly different color to the front. Fretboard is really straight with lots of height still left in the frets. The neck is bigger than I'm used to or expected. It is more like '57 Les Pauls - big and chunky but wider. No cracks anywhere but the paint has misty spots around the edges of the body - so did my '52 Maton but the paintwork on this is still really good. Sorry no pictures yet because I don't know how to transmit them onto the forum. I'll try to work that out. I love it. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Hey AlanC-- It's great to hear that the guitar is working out. Don't feel bad about the pictures; I still haven't posted mine yet. I do not seem to be able to photograph a guitar without making it look like a cheap piece of junk, no matter what I do. I still need to figure out how to post 'em once I figure out how to shoot the pictures in the first place! Anyway, I'm not surprised at the chunky neck. My early '50s ES-125 also has a big ol' neck like that. It takes some getting used to, but it has a good sense of heft and strength once you get the feel for it. I tend to find a lot of modern guitar necks now feel flimsy in comparison (at least on electric guitars). The back and sides of your guitar are a different color from the front because they are made from a different wood: I believe the tops of the ES-150 and the ES-125 are spruce, and the back and sides are mahogany (which also is the wood out of which the necks are made). The dots on the fretboard match with the pre-1950 version of the ES-150; they did not have trapezoid inlays until 1950 and later (which makes them one of the distinguishing features between the post-1950 ES-125 and ES-150; the ES-125 retained the dot inlays over its entire model lifespan). So if your instrument has a 17" lower bout, then based on what you've told us (dot inlays, P-90 pickup, and silkscreened modern Gibson logo), you can rest assured that you have an ES-150 made between 1946 and 1950. Enjoy. That instrument is a treasure. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 It has a 17" lower bout so it is definitely an ES150. Thanks for help its been much appreciated. Regards, AlanC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old mark Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 AlanC-Seems like you have found a guitar that called your name...Price is not all that important when you find a really great fit. I hope you really enjoy it for many years to come. mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Big difference between the ES-125 and ES-150. Not only price, but rarity and quality of construction. Can you post some pix of the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Big difference between the ES-125 and ES-150. Not only price, but rarity and quality of construction. Can you post some pix of the guitar? I haven't got that many photos of my ES150 but here's one and I'll try to dig out a couple more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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