flyinbryan Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 due to recent hard luck we need to sell my brothers gibson es335. i will describe it to the best of my ability, and will be able to add pics in the next day or so, probably wednesday because we have a funeral to attend tommorow, 3/22. we do not know the exact year of the guitar, but he bought it used in apprx 1973. it is reddish in color. it has blocks in the neck, and not the dots. the pickgaurd is missing. the label inside appears to be the original orange sticker, with a very rough looking handwritten serial number 11xxx. we believe the tuners and pickups to be original. thankyou for any opinions. bryan. p.s., are there specific areas of the guitar that should be photographed? or just a bunch of overall pics from various angles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRIDER Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 due to recent hard luck we need to sell my brothers gibson es335. i will describe it to the best of my ability, and will be able to add pics in the next day or so, probably wednesday because we have a funeral to attend tommorow, 3/22. we do not know the exact year of the guitar, but he bought it used in apprx 1973. it is reddish in color. it has blocks in the neck, and not the dots. the pickgaurd is missing. the label inside appears to be the original orange sticker, with a very rough looking handwritten serial number 11xxx. we believe the tuners and pickups to be original. thankyou for any opinions. bryan. p.s., are there specific areas of the guitar that should be photographed? or just a bunch of overall pics from various angles? I'm sure others can give you more info about this ES-335 than I can, but they will need pics and the serial number. Although serial numbers on earlier Gibsons are usually difficult to nearly impossible to pinpoint the exact year it was produced. As far as I know with the orange sticker inside the F hole it is a pre 1970. There's a lot of info to be found here: http://www.gibson.com/Files/downloads/bluebook/GibsonSERIALNUMBERS.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Your brother must have loved the guitar to keep it so long. It is actually pretty easy to pin down the year for pre-'73 ES 335's with reasonable accuracy by the serial number and certain characteristics of the guitar. The 11xxx serial number you give may be a mis-print. Is this a five-digit number starting with 11---, or a six-digit number? Is it also stamped at the top of the back of the headstock (where the strings attach to the tuning pegs)? Does the orange label say "union made" in small print in its lower left corner? All these things help in dating for those of us with an obsession with the ES 335. Gibson serial numbers can be difficult to use and understand when dating an instrument in this period, but the physical characteristics of the instrument are more reliable in general. You should at least photograph the top of the guitar body, the back of the body, the fretboard, the front and back of the headstock, and if possible, the label inside. It may take several shots to photograph the entire orange label, as you can't get the whole thing in from one angle. Since you are limited in what you can post here, feel free to send the photos to me directly, and I'll try to help you sort it out. ES 335 values vary dramatically depending on model year, condition,and originality, so don't get delusions of grandeur over what the value might be until you know what you have. Nick Nicholson (J-45 Nick). accnick@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRIDER Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 It is actually pretty easy to pin down the year for pre-'73 ES 335's with reasonable accuracy by the serial number and certain characteristics of the guitar. Nick Nicholson (J-45 Nick). accnick@yahoo.com I'm in no way an expert in dating pre 1977 Gibson's by the serial number.. I too have an older ES 335 that I have tried to get an accurate year for. Even Gibson couldn't pin point the year, the best they gave me was a 5 year span. I'm pretty sure of the year of mine, but still have some doubt. Serial numbers before 1977 were pretty random and hard to understand, at least for me and the 2 reps from Gibson I spoke to about my vintage ES-335. I know some of the people on this forum are experts, and like I stated can tell you more than I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 It is true that you can't rely on serial numbers alone for Gibsons in the late 60's through 1978--or some earlier periods, for that matter. It is also true that you CAN date them pretty accurately by features of the guitar, which vary by year and are generally a good indicator. The other thing is that ES 335's from the late 60's through the late 70's don't have a huge range of values compared to earlier instruments. Even if the identification is off by a year, the estimated value won't be out of whack by much, if the condition and details are right. Sadly, from 1969 through the end of the Norlin era was not the high point in construction for any Gibson model, including the ES 335. Yes, there are good ones out there, but it seems to be pretty much a random process. Caveat Emptor. j45 nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 thx for all the replies so far guys. here are a few pics. IT DOES NOT HAVE PAF PICKUPS, IT HAS THE STICKERS THAT LOOK LIKE PAF'S BUT IT HAS THE PAT. # ON THEM.. so i didnt bother taking picks of them. we are sure that they are original to the guitar though. more coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 more coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Now here's a man who knows how to provide "detailed photos". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Now here's a man who knows how to provide "detailed photos". lol, ya, i tried not to miss anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I have to admit that the exact year is a bit of a stumper here, as the guitar has some conflicting characteristics. It is most likely '69 or '70, although it has some slightly later characteristics. I'll do a bit more homework and try to get a more definitive answer. Unfortunately, in any case it is not a particularly rare or valuable ES 335. If it has value, it will be as a player, not a collectible. The walnut color, according to most sources, was introduced in 1969, and the three-piece mahogany(I think) neck says '70-73. Both the serial number and the orange non-"union made" label are really problematic. A '69 should have the orange label with the "union-made" logo (1964-1969). That was supposedly discontinued in 1970, when the label style and color changed for the rest of the Norlin years. There appears to be no neck tenon at all, which suggests post-'69, but isn't definitive. Narrow nut is late 60s through late 70s, generally speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaster Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I have to admit that the exact year is a bit of a stumper here, as the guitar has some conflicting characteristics. It is most likely '69 or '70, although it has some slightly later characteristics. I'll do a bit more homework and try to get a more definitive answer. Unfortunately, in any case it is not a particularly rare or valuable ES 335. If it has value, it will be as a player, not a collectible. The walnut color, according to most sources, was introduced in 1969, and the three-piece mahogany(I think) neck says '70-73. Both the serial number and the orange non-"union made" label are really problematic. A '69 should have the orange label with the "union-made" logo (1964-1969). That was supposedly discontinued in 1970, when the label style and color changed for the rest of the Norlin years. There appears to be no neck tenon at all, which suggests post-'69, but isn't definitive. Narrow nut is late 60s through late 70s, generally speaking. Looks like one of the repro Orange labels that are sold on Ebay, also the sloppy serial number writing makes me suspect the guitar was relabeled for whatever reason, maybe to make it appear it's older than it really is. It's probably a decent player nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 well, cant say that its not relabled, but can definitely say it didnt come from ebay. its been under a bed in one of my mothers bedrooms for longer than there has been an internet. my brother bought it used, from a small music shop in 73. all i know for sure about the guitar. figures that there are problems with it. our luck. i considering putting it up for around 2-3k and see if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 LATEST UPDATE. i cant believe we missed it, but it is almost undetectable, and i havent made it out yet, but there is a serial number on the back of the headstock. i cant even make it out well enough to see how many figures it is. it is hard to describe. the characters look legible, but it seems to be behind the finish of something, like its behind the clear or something? it has a holographic effect going. at first i saw a 3 and an 8, when the light hit it just right, now im seeing other numbers but havent made them out. i will photograph it tommorow, and see if i can use the flash to make them come through. ps, it does not have the original case. it actually has an older gibson 335 hard case. story behind that is this. my father bought my brother an es335, brand new, in the late 60s. that guitar was stolen from my brothers house in 73, but they didnt take the case. the guitar was on a stand and the case was in the closet, and they only took the guitar. my bro then goes and buys this guitar used in 73 at a small music shop in pleasant grove tx, (dallas suburb), and has kept it in the same case since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 there is another discouraging thing we have found. if you noticed that there is no lower screw in the headstock plate, its because the wood behind it is chips away and it wont hold a screw. im sure its fixable, but im not going to mess w-it, and be upfront as i can about its condition to any prospective buyer. the guitar feels incredible in my hands. it plays as easily as my gibson. (1959 gibson es175d -w- 2 original paf pickups) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endpin Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Per this historical timeline , some features such as: Nylon saddles Narrow width nut Trapeze tailpiece Chrome (rather than nickel) hardware could date back to as early as 1965. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The best (and possibly only) way to narrow down the year of manufacture is by the potentiometer codes. Get yourself a little gooseneck mirror and a flashlight. Stick the mirror in the lower f-hole, shine the flashlight into the mirror to reflect up under the back of the pot. Look for a 7-digit number starting with "137", the following 4-digits are a date code. Many times this number is covered up by solder connections from the ground wires, but you may be able to get different parts of the number from different pots. The headstock serial number would aid in in dating this instrument, but is only useful as a piece of the puzzle. To be able to read the serial number take a flashlight and shine it at a very shallow angle across the headstock. This will cause a shadow area from the impressions of the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 out in bright sunlight we are now pretty sure that the sn is 5411XX. looking at it under lightbulbs lastnight, vs sunlight today is a huge difference. that would place it as a 69. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The serial number 54xxxx, along with the other characteristics, strongly suggests '69 or slightly later. I don't believe it can be any earlier, because of the walnut finish ('69 or later), three-piece neck ('70 earliest), and apparent lack of a neck tenon ((Norlin!). This is a classic case where the guitars do not automatically assume a whole new set of characteristics on a given date, like the model year of a car. Changes at Gibson--and elsewhere, I'm sure--seem to come gradually, as older parts get used up and new ones become available. I do think the interior label is a red herring. It's pretty easy to lose an original label, and someone may well have put in a repro label, with absolutely no intention to defraud. It's not like anyone is out there copying late 60's and early 70s ES 335s! You would think, however, that they would at least put the right serial number on it. Even the writing on the label doesnt make sense, in terms of what they've entered on the individual lines. Charlie Gelber is probably one of the best at unraveling Gibson dating mysteries for the ES 335. His website is es-335.org. Some people are put off by his forthright style and willingness to shoot first and ask questions later at times, but he knows his stuff. There is more knowledge on the details and history of the ES 335 packed into his website articles than in most of the books on the ES 335. I know he was extremely generous with me in helping me sort out the best ES 335 to start out with. An ebay auction will establish the true market value of this guitar, but it may be disappointing to you. You may want to set a reserve below which you are unwilling to go at this time, but prepared for it not to sell. Re-visit your reserve after a bit of soul-searching. I suspect that if you walk away with over $2.5K, you will have won. The guitar looks to be in pretty decent condition. Someone will obviously want to get a repro pickguard, but that's no big deal on a guitar of this vintage and value. I don't think there are too many fans of the walnut finish out there, since it can look pretty muddy compared to a cherry or sunburst, and isn't the finish people usually identify with the 335. It would be nice if you had found the mythical red dot 1959 ES 335 under the bed. My Nashville Historic red dot '59 is as close as I'm ever likely to get to that unicorn. I know the "real" one is out there somewhere....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 By sheer luck, a virtually identical ES 335 has now appeared on ebay, under the "vintage Gibson" category. It is called a 1971, and has the proper black/white/purple rectangular label for 1970 and later. It also has "made in USA" stamped on the back of the neck under the stamped serial number, which by all references began in 1970. Same double-ring Klusons, same walnut color, same three-piece (plus wings) mahogany neck, original hard case. Has the original pickguard and switch tip, and looks to be in very, very nice shape. Serial number of 113303 suggests post-1970 (probably 1971, as he says) when Gibson serial numbers really got whacky. Based on this for a good comp in both year and characteristics, his "buy it now" price of $3.5K has to be the starting point for your soul-searching on price. Better condition, all original including case. Based on this, I'd say late '69 or early '70 makes sense for your guitar, ignoring the almost certainly incorrect orange label yours has, and going on serial number and characteristics, and provided your "purchased used in 1973" memory is accurate, which should set the newest possible year limit. The only thing throwing me off is the lack of a neck tenon in the front pickup cavity, which I thought might have shifted the guitar into the early 1970's. Whatever you look for in a Gibson, don't look for consistency! I have a '68 ES 335-12 that has the long neck tenon that apparently was phased out sometime that year. I also have a 1948 (or 1950--flip a coin) J-45 that is almost 1/4" bigger all around than any published dimensions for the J-45. My two ES 335's vary in rim thickness by a full 1/4". Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyinbryan Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 you have been greatly helpful, and i really appreciate it. i know the old guitar is not that collectable and all that, we are just so hard up for cash right now we dont know what else to do. i am self employed, (have been since 1980ish)and have some bids in on jobs and if we get any work out of it, i would not consider selling, but as it is, its desperate times calling for desperate measures. i also have a set of actual 1959 gibson paf pickups that i considering selling if that is what it takes to keep my family afloat. again i really appreciate all your input. it has not been taken lightly. bryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Bryan, I don't know what your situation is, but keeping your family afloat is a lot more important than any guitar, no matter how attached you are to it. A genuine, unopened set of '59 PAFs is probably worth as much or more than your brother's 335. The problem is that there are so many counterfeit PAFs out there that you would need to have them independently verified before you could expect to sell them for anything approaching their true value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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