dougg330 Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 So, I'm loving the look of the 1961 Casino reissues... but I'm a little troubled by the way Gibson is spinning the Casino's history in all the marketing materials - especially a line about the designers of the Casino and the Beatles themselves working concurrently etc etc. What happened to the Gibson ES-330 in all of this? The 330 was introduced in 1959... which is two years earlier than 1961 by math. So how much designing did the Casino's designers really do? Hey, I work in advertising, so I know that you never let the facts get in the way of a good story. But I'm also a huge fan of the 330, and I hate that it's being ignored because of the Casino/Beatles connection. Yes, it's great that the Beatles played Casinos etc etc... but Gibson created the 330, and I hate to see them denying it the credit it deserves. Anyone else agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Wise words indeed...!! If you look under the surface I think you will discover a hard core of ES 330 enthusiasts Who are enjoying this classic away from the spotlight And appreciating it's classic design and tone Early on in their life I read that Casinos and ES 330's were identical and made on the same production line Let the majority be seduced by the Beatles connection....I have played Chinese Epi Casinos and they give great value for money All this Elitist this and Signature that can get irritating after a while In the end the cognoscenti know what's what..... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hmmm.... I'm not sure if it's revisionist history or just marketing blurb. I guess the sentence you're referring to is: "Maybe it's purely coincidental that at the same time that the Casino was in its planning stages at Epiphone headquarters in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the Beatles were starting out, too. By 1964, the Beatles were stars and when Paul McCartney went shopping for a new guitar that would feed back, he reached for a Casino. John Lennon and George Harrison soon bought their own and used their Casinos on stage and at Abbey Road throughout the band's career. Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys, Paul Weller of the Jam, and Noel Gallagher of Oasis are just a few of the players who made great records with Casinos." Tenuous, but not technically erroneous. I guess one could argue that the Epiphone Casino had to be "planned" in 1961, even if the plan involved ripping-off the ES-330. And quite what this has to do with some young guys who, at that time, were making their names with Rickenbackers and Gretsches, is anyone's guess. Two unrelated events occurring concurrently, as you indicated. The Noel Gallagher statement is a real piece of sleight-of-hand. Yes, he played an Elitist Casino on a couple of tracks on one of the later Oasis albums - but no-one is ever going to think of him as a Casino player. All of his stuff from the golden age of Oasis seemed to be played on Rivieras, non-reverse-Firebirds, Les Paul Customs, etc. Nowadays, I usually picture him with his famous red ES-345. I understand the Beatles are the Epiphone Marketing Department's greatest asset. However, given that the '61 Casino reissue is not a guitar associated with any of the Beatles, (the bikini headstock alone is a glaring difference from any of the Beatles' Casinos), I'm not sure why Epi chose to go down the well-trodden Beatles-connection marketing path. From what I have seen, the '61 reissue looks to be a beautiful and highly desirable guitar in its own right. I doubt it needs a reminder of the usual, "Paul, George, and John all had Casinos, ya know" spiel in order to sell 1961 of these lovely instruments. Besides which, isn't it nice to see a special-run Casino for once that isn't a Lennon signature model of some sort? And if Epiphone do persist in making special-run Beatle Casinos, might there not be scope for, say, a Harrison Casino - royal tan with a Bigsby, rather than just another Lennon model (sanded or non-sanded)!? As regards the ES-330. Yes, I understand the lineage. As I recall, Mr. Nelson used to love ranting here that 1960s Epiphones were basically Gibsons in every way. Point is, the Beatles did Gibbyphone a huge favour by not reaching for the similarly priced ES-330 back in 1964. If they had, Gibson would be selling premium-priced Beatles ES-330s. However, the fact that they chose the Casino means that once Epiphone became Gibson's lower-priced brand, the Beatles connections could be legitimately attached to the lower-priced, Asian made guitar. Shifting countless Casinos as a result. Still...even if the Beatles went for the Casino, a guitarist for their chief rivals plumped for an ES-330! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymac Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Yes, it's great that the Beatles played Casinos etc etc... but Gibson created the 330, and I hate to see them denying it the credit it deserves. Anyone else agree? My main guitar in the late 60s / early 70s was an ES-330. I got it at a good price because there was a small chip on the back and I got it for a good price, plus it was an awesome guitar. Nothing to do with the Beatles, I didn't even realize it was the same as their Casino until my friend mentioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymac Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Here's Brian Jones with his 330... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougg330 Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hmmm.... I'm not sure if it's revisionist history or just marketing blurb. I guess the sentence you're referring to is: "Maybe it's purely coincidental that at the same time that the Casino was in its planning stages at Epiphone headquarters in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the Beatles were starting out, too. By 1964, the Beatles were stars and when Paul McCartney went shopping for a new guitar that would feed back, he reached for a Casino. John Lennon and George Harrison soon bought their own and used their Casinos on stage and at Abbey Road throughout the band's career. Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys, Paul Weller of the Jam, and Noel Gallagher of Oasis are just a few of the players who made great records with Casinos." Tenuous, but not technically erroneous. I guess one could argue that the Epiphone Casino had to be "planned" in 1961, even if the plan involved ripping-off the ES-330. And quite what this has to do with some young guys who, at that time, were making their names with Rickenbackers and Gretsches, is anyone's guess. Two unrelated events occurring concurrently, as you indicated. The Noel Gallagher statement is a real piece of sleight-of-hand. Yes, he played an Elitist Casino on a couple of tracks on one of the later Oasis albums - but no-one is ever going to think of him as a Casino player. All of his stuff from the golden age of Oasis seemed to be played on Rivieras, non-reverse-Firebirds, Les Paul Customs, etc. Nowadays, I usually picture him with his famous red ES-345. I understand the Beatles are the Epiphone Marketing Department's greatest asset. However, given that the '61 Casino reissue is not a guitar associated with any of the Beatles, (the bikini headstock alone is a glaring difference from any of the Beatles' Casinos), I'm not sure why Epi chose to go down the well-trodden Beatles-connection marketing path. From what I have seen, the '61 reissue looks to be a beautiful and highly desirable guitar in its own right. I doubt it needs a reminder of the usual, "Paul, George, and John all had Casinos, ya know" spiel in order to sell 1961 of these lovely instruments. Besides which, isn't it nice to see a special-run Casino for once that isn't a Lennon signature model of some sort? And if Epiphone do persist in making special-run Beatle Casinos, might there not be scope for, say, a Harrison Casino - royal tan with a Bigsby, rather than just another Lennon model (sanded or non-sanded)!? As regards the ES-330. Yes, I understand the lineage. As I recall, Mr. Nelson used to love ranting here that 1960s Epiphones were basically Gibsons in every way. Point is, the Beatles did Gibbyphone a huge favour by not reaching for the similarly priced ES-330 back in 1964. If they had, Gibson would be selling premium-priced Beatles ES-330s. However, the fact that they chose the Casino means that once Epiphone became Gibson's lower-priced brand, the Beatles connections could be legitimately attached to the lower-priced, Asian made guitar. Shifting countless Casinos as a result. Still...even if the Beatles went for the Casino, a guitarist for their chief rivals plumped for an ES-330! Well said, Your Lordship. You identified the source of my ire: this is a fine guitar in its own right, so there's no need to drag the Beatles into the story to make us interested in it. Let it stand on its own merits (and as a proud owner of a couple of Epi Casinos, I know it has plenty) without the borrowed interest of the Beatles pitch. I would actually be more interested in hearing the actual, factual story of the Casino was evolved from the 330. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Legend has it that McCartney spent some evenings in the company of John Mayall, listening to his extensive record collection and talking guitars. When talk got around to semi-acoustics and their ability to feed back Paul was sold on getting one. From what I gather the Casino was bought in London late 64 (He also got the Texan around about the same time), probably by McCartney himself, although the Beatles were known to give guitar shopping duties to Mal Evans! It is very likely that he wanted an ES-335, but not being technically minded regarding guitars, went for the Casino, which was the right shape and had a Bigsby to boot. The rest is history. As to why the Beatles bought Casino`s and not Gibson 330`s, that`s because in the 60`s Epiphones were much more plentiful in the U.K. and once John and George heard and played Pauls Casino they were impressed enough to get their own soon after. Mal, would have been sent shopping, and told to get a matching pair (As he did the matching 62 Sonic Blue Fender Strats). The big surprise is that Gibson never capitalised on this accidental artist association during the 60`s, not even when the Beatles used the Casino`s almost exclusively during the 66 world tour. At this time Fender were falling over themselves to try and get guitars, and more so amps into the Beatles hands! As were Rickenbacker and Gretsch. However Gibson have more than made up for that oversight since. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougg330 Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Here's Brian Jones with his 330... Jerrymac, your old band pic looks remarkably like my old band's pix. In mine, the amp next to the Silvertone 2 x 12 would have been my Kalamazoo, later replaced by a Twin Reverb. I played rhythm guitar: a Gibson ES-335 thru a Fender Twin Reverb. Our lead player chose a 3-pickup Hagstrom thru a big tuck'n roll Kustom solid state. Guess whose rig sounded better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I would venture to add that the Casino is one iconic name now available at all price points And any way to expand the guitar playing public's tonal spectrum has to be a good thing Balancing the habitual reach for a LP, Strat or Shred-stick.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymac Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Jerrymac, your old band pic looks remarkably like my old band's pix. In mine, the amp next to the Silvertone 2 x 12 would have been my Kalamazoo, later replaced by a Twin Reverb. I played rhythm guitar: a Gibson ES-335 thru a Fender Twin Reverb. Our lead player chose a 3-pickup Hagstrom thru a big tuck'n roll Kustom solid state. Guess whose rig sounded better? I used the Silvertone when we first got together, but it wasn't mine. I just had a small Supro practice amp, shortly after this I got a Haynes Bass King amp. I think that is a Gibson amp next to the Silvertone, it was the keyboard player's amp. Funny thing that you mentioned the Hagstrom. My friend Vinny had a three pickup Hag that looked like a Strat. A baby blue fiberglass Strat. I loved that guitar, and I borrowed it all the time for gigs. But Vinny sold it to buy that Framus hollow body the other guitarist is playing in the picture. I hated that Framus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hmmm.... Still...even if the Beatles went for the Casino, a guitarist for their chief rivals plumped for an ES-330! Yeah but Keef and Dave Davies both played Casinos in the mid-60s as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymac Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Still...even if the Beatles went for the Casino, a guitarist for their chief rivals plumped for an ES-330! Lenny Davidson??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yeah but Keef and Dave Davies both played Casinos in the mid-60s as well... True enough! Keith hung on to his Casino for quite a while. Apparently it ended up with Mick Taylor (sold, not gifted, as Taylor once pointed out), at some point in the early 1970s. Hence, it was not present in Keith's arsenal of guitars that were stolen from his house in the south of France, during the recording of Exile on Main St. Dave Davies...the Casino seemed to be amongst the various guitars that passed through his hands in the early days of the Kinks' fame. According to his weird spacey website that insists on playing, "You really got me," very loudly as I attempt to surreptitiously access it at work, he doesn't own a Casino anymore. He does, however, have a 1964 Riviera. Somehow the image that sticks in my mind is Dave Davies with his famous prototype Flying V and a stupid munchkin hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Double-post. Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Shhhhh- Keep the price of the vinatge ES-330's low and let people charge ungodly amount for old Casinos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougg330 Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 I used the Silvertone when we first got together, but it wasn't mine. I just had a small Supro practice amp, shortly after this I got a Haynes Bass King amp. I think that is a Gibson amp next to the Silvertone, it was the keyboard player's amp. Funny thing that you mentioned the Hagstrom. My friend Vinny had a three pickup Hag that looked like a Strat. A baby blue fiberglass Strat. I loved that guitar, and I borrowed it all the time for gigs. But Vinny sold it to buy that Framus hollow body the other guitarist is playing in the picture. I hated that Framus... That's funny because our bass player had a Haynes, too. Nice am - a lot more powerful than it looked. The Hagstrom played great - very fast neck. But the sound thru the Kustom solid state could bbest be described as.... plink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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