Attention Gibson Service Team or Admin!

[TinyBabyBrandon]

There has been a lot of talk on this board recently in regards to cracks in the binding of new ES guitars at the frets. I am someone that has one of these guitars and it seems the topic has been popping up over and over again, and while there is rampant theorizing on the causes and the effects of such an issue, there has been no definitive word from Gibson on what appears to be a growing problem in a good amount of new production guitars. I personally am not super bothered by the binding cracks, but I am very curious to know, as are many other members of the forum, what the cause is, if we can expect the cracks to grow in the long term and if this has been brought up and looked at by quality control at Gibson. Any information would be super helpful and appreciated. I'd just like to know a little bit more about this possible flaw on my and many others' guitars. For reference pictures see these topics:

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/84424-what-should-i-do/

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/82771-es175-with-small-cracks-at-each-fret/

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/82181-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-1960-50th-anniversarry-335-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

 

 

Thanks!

[Guest EastEnder]

There has been a lot of talk on this board recently in regards to cracks in the binding of new ES guitars at the frets. I am someone that has one of these guitars and it seems the topic has been popping up over and over again, and while there is rampant theorizing on the causes and the effects of such an issue, there has been no definitive word from Gibson on what appears to be a growing problem in a good amount of new production guitars. I personally am not super bothered by the binding cracks, but I am very curious to know, as are many other members of the forum, what the cause is, if we can expect the cracks to grow in the long term and if this has been brought up and looked at by quality control at Gibson. Any information would be super helpful and appreciated. I'd just like to know a little bit more about this possible flaw on my and many others' guitars. For reference pictures see these topics:

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/84424-what-should-i-do/

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/82771-es175-with-small-cracks-at-each-fret/

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/82181-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-1960-50th-anniversarry-335-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

 

 

Thanks!

 

Bravo, TBB. I've pushed for this in a number of threads.

 

I'm turning blue from holding my breath. I would not recommend that others follow my example.

 

EE

[brantobrien]

Bravo, TBB. I've pushed for this in a number of threads.

 

I'm turning blue from holding my breath. I would not recommend that others follow my example.

 

EE

 

I applaud the effort and think it needs to be brought forward continually as it is something that needs to be addressed at the factory. Unfortunately, I don't see how Gibson Customer Service can respond on a public forum like this as it could very well have implications regarding warranties as well as legal issues depending on the response. It is a huge disappointment for many people to see imperfections in a new guitar, and personally it would bother me as well! I've never had the pleasure of buying a new Gibson (all mine are hand me downs) but why would I want to pay top dollar and have some kind of visible quality issue (not even talking about the relic stuff either)? I'd hate to buy a top of the line laptop and have a few of the keys on the keyboard be missing letters... just sayin'. I hope they get this resolved and that you all who are bothered by the issue will respectfully get an appropriate response.

[Guest EastEnder]

Here's a solution...

 

— Gibson-style binding method:

 

 

The fret ends butt up against the binding. When the fingerboard (brown) shrinks, it pulls the binding in against the non-shrinking frets. The binding finish and/or the binding itself cracks under pressure.

 

— Alternative method:

 

 

The black areas represent (exaggerated) gaps between the fret tang ends and the binding in the fret slot. When the fingerboard shrinks, nothing butts up against the binding so it doesn't crack. The fret ends lay over the binding. The worse that can happen with fingerboard shrinkage is that the fret ends can extend slightly beyond the edge of the fingerboard. An easy fix with a couple of file strokes. Done.

 

Drawings are pretty pathetic, but the point, I think, is demonstrated.

 

(By the way, not all Gibson fingerboards are made with binding nibs at fret ends. The Warren Haynes L.P. doesn't have them, and the frets extend over the binding)

[roadhog96]

I can almost guarantee that if Gibson replies their going to say the guitar was not kept in the proper environment . The rooms humidity was to low. This is the same answer I got from them and I've seen it from many forum members on multiple boards over the years. I don't buy it. I know it is a contributing factor in most cases but I know I'm not guilty of it. I prepared my guitar studio before I even bought my first LP and that guitar was perfect the day I bought it. The temperature and humidity is constantly controlled and my fretboard still shrink and cracked. I bought another Gibson, a 335 and that guitar never developed any cracks. The answer is obvious, the wood used to build the guitar was not properly kiln dried and ended up continuing to dry and shrank after the guitar was made. None of my other guitars with binding have had any issues so this LP is an isolated incident. There is absolutely no reason for that guitar to have developed any cracks due to anything that I did. I've said this before, there is no way Gibson or any manufacture can physically check each piece of wood for dryness. They evaluate it by takeing random samples. Every piece of wood is unique in its own respect. All wood dries at different rates even if subjected to the same environmental conditions.

[Guest EastEnder]

Every piece of wood is unique in its own respect. All wood dries at different rates even if subjected to the same environmental conditions.

 

Agreed. But construction methods can be modified in many cases to make allowances for shrinkage, as is demonstrated in the example above, a method commonly used.

 

All manufacturers will cover their hindquarters by blaming the consumer. But my inner Howard Beale screams that enough is enough; that manufacturers need to learn that the consumer is the sole reason for any manufacturer's prosperity. Without happy consumers, companies inevitably fail. I fear that one of our once-esteemed manufacturers is now in steady decline.

 

EE

[TinyBabyBrandon]

Agreed. But construction methods can be modified in many cases to make allowances for shrinkage, as is demonstrated in the example above, a method commonly used.

 

All manufacturers will cover their hindquarters by blaming the consumer. But my inner Howard Beale screams that enough is enough; that manufacturers need to learn that the consumer is the sole reason for any manufacturer's prosperity. Without happy consumers, companies inevitably fail. I fear that one of our once-esteemed manufacturers is now in steady decline.

 

EE

 

I have to agree. It seems like a pretty simple fix honestly and if Ibanezes and Epiphones can be perfect on the binding, why not Gibson, by all accounts a far superior manufacturer, although obviously Gibson owns Epi. I wonder if the reason for this is actually because of a superior build quality or building method that makes for a more stable neck, or better intonation (I'm totally hypothesizing here) and the fret cracks are just a necessary evil of an otherwise superior method of construction. That's why I posted this, to get some kind of answers from Gibson and let them state their piece on it. with this problem being so prevalent I find it impossible to believe that they have not discussed this at some length internally. Hopefully we'll hear what's up, but I kind of doubt it unfortunately.

[TinyBabyBrandon]

I have to agree. It seems like a pretty simple fix honestly and if Ibanezes and Epiphones can be perfect on the binding, why not Gibson, by all accounts a far superior manufacturer, although obviously Gibson owns Epi. I wonder if the reason for this is actually because of a superior build quality or building method that makes for a more stable neck, or better intonation (I'm totally hypothesizing here) and the fret cracks are just a necessary evil of an otherwise superior method of construction. That's why I posted this, to get some kind of answers from Gibson and let them state their piece on it. with this problem being so prevalent I find it impossible to believe that they have not discussed this at some length internally. Hopefully we'll hear what's up, but I kind of doubt it unfortunately.

[Jayyj]

Whilst I agree than dispersing with the binding nibs and fretting as Eastender suggests is a practical solution to the problem, I can't help feel Gibson is somewhere between a rock and a hard place with this one - keep binding the nacks as they currently do and they continue to have unhappy customers with cracked binding, or do away with them and feel the wrath of fans who want every detail of their guitar to match the specifications of classic vintage models.

 

On the other hand, I don't like Gibson's approach of either blaming the consumer or issuing statements claiming that issues such as this are an unavoidable byproduct of using certain techniques to make the best sounding guitar. Sure, Epiphone and Ibanez use durable finishes that are easy to apply and less prone to crazing / cracking issues: but I've yet to see a Collings for example with a less than perfect finish, and their guitars are certainly not inferior in any way to the Gibsons. When I dealt with Gibson a good few years back I had numerous arguments with their rep about issues with lacquer cracks particularly on acoustics, always with the same "we don't warrenty finishes, it's a byproduct of the lacquer that they often crack but our lacquer sounds better than anyone elses". Desperately frustrating, and the worst thing is if they don't accept there's a problem the situation is never going to improve.

 

It's a shame because we're talking about relatively minor things that don't detract from the guitar's ability to perform to the purpose it was designed, but at the same time guitars are possessions that we love and cherish, and I don't see the harm in wanting them to be perfect. If Gibson could make a few small concessions to improving issues such as this it would go a long way towards diffusing the sense of unease that so many of us seem to have about the present company.

[Guest EastEnder]

Okay...

 

My son's brand new 50th Anniversary ES-335 arrived today (from a dealer who shall remain nameless). Another case of a guitar that should have gone back to the factory rather than to a customer.

 

The guitar was completed in January of this year.

 

Cracked fret ends, lacquer cracks around the nut ends, badly cut nut pinging like crazy, hideously sharp fret ends/nibs, and a string alignment so bad that the high E threatened to slip off the fingerboard with barely a touch. The fingerboard was sticky (I didn't know that the rosewood was supposed to get the VOS treatment, too), and the guitar played like a cheap asian copy.

 

The guitar's going back. This Gibson family is finished with Gibson.

 

End of story.

[TinyBabyBrandon]

Whilst I agree than dispersing with the binding nibs and fretting as Eastender suggests is a practical solution to the problem, I can't help feel Gibson is somewhere between a rock and a hard place with this one - keep binding the nacks as they currently do and they continue to have unhappy customers with cracked binding, or do away with them and feel the wrath of fans who want every detail of their guitar to match the specifications of classic vintage models.

 

 

The problem is that a lot of the vintage examples that they are copying now do not have this problem, thus the head scratching!

[TinyBabyBrandon]

Okay...

 

My son's brand new 50th Anniversary ES-335 arrived today (from a dealer who shall remain nameless). Another case of a guitar that should have gone back to the factory rather than to a customer.

 

The guitar was completed in January of this year.

 

Cracked fret ends, lacquer cracks around the nut ends, badly cut nut pinging like crazy, hideously sharp fret ends/nibs, and a string alignment so bad that the high E threatened to slip off the fingerboard with barely a touch. The fingerboard was sticky (I didn't know that the rosewood was supposed to get the VOS treatment, too), and the guitar played like a cheap asian copy.

 

The guitar's going back. This Gibson family is finished with Gibson.

 

End of story.

Yikes! By the way you're an awesome dad for getting that for your son! But those seem like the same issues I had on mine. Some things I learned on the high e situation, if you ever encounter this problem again (it seems like you won't), but I actually had my tailpiece screwed all the way down to the body and it worked wonders. I have the exact same guitar with the exact same problem and that took care of it. It did make the action tighter, actually tighter than I liked so I found tightening the treble side all the way down and leaving the bass side off the body slightly cured the problem. I also had it set up at Westwood music, I know from your posts you're an LA guy, and the guy there, Leland (currently reftretting my SG), notched a second slot a little closer to the bass side of the saddle for the little e to sit in which may have helped as well. Long story short she's playing great, but I still have those pesky binding cracks, but then again I paid no where near full price. My nut was also good to go too. Seems like you got all the problems on that one.

[Guest EastEnder]

Yikes! By the way you're an awesome dad for getting that for your son! But those seem like the same issues I had on mine. Some things I learned on the high e situation, if you ever encounter this problem again (it seems like you won't), but I actually had my tailpiece screwed all the way down to the body and it worked wonders. I have the exact same guitar with the exact same problem and that took care of it. It did make the action tighter, actually tighter than I liked so I found tightening the treble side all the way down and leaving the bass side off the body slightly cured the problem. I also had it set up at Westwood music, I know from your posts you're an LA guy, and the guy there, Leland (currently reftretting my SG), notched a second slot a little closer to the bass side of the saddle for the little e to sit in which may have helped as well. Long story short she's playing great, but I still have those pesky binding cracks, but then again I paid no where near full price. My nut was also good to go too. Seems like you got all the problems on that one.

 

Thanks, but I'm not that awesome. My son buys his own guitars.

 

I use Eric's Guitar Shop in Van Nuys for guitar work, but I would have been too embarrassed to take the latest lemon to him. He worked wonders on my 355 and made it eminently playable, but I fear he would laugh this one right out of the shop.

 

By the way, this is the second guitar returned by my family in as many weeks. The new 355 I ordered from the same dealer who sold this 335 was quite the dud.

 

I'm just plain tired of seeing a once-great company apparently thinking more of bottom-line-friendly acquisitions that the satisfaction and growth of its core market. Besides, I'm an existential atheist pinko, so I'm sure old Henry J will be happy to see me go.

 

EE (happily lacking an MBA)

[TinyBabyBrandon]

Thanks, but I'm not that awesome. My son buys his own guitars.

 

I use Eric's Guitar Shop in Van Nuys for guitar work, but I would have been too embarrassed to take the latest lemon to him. He worked wonders on my 355 and made it eminently playable, but I fear he would laugh this one right out of the shop.

 

By the way, this is the second guitar returned by my family in as many weeks. The new 355 I ordered from the same dealer who sold this 335 was quite the dud.

 

I'm just plain tired of seeing a once-great company apparently thinking more of bottom-line-friendly acquisitions that the satisfaction and growth of its core market. Besides, I'm an existential atheist pinko, so I'm sure old Henry J will be happy to see me go.

 

EE (happily lacking an MBA)

 

Well you may have all the hallmarks of a no good commie, but at least you've imparted some great 6 string taste to your offspring. Any plans on what he might get instead? I hear a lot of great things about Collings, but I've never played one. Also, there might be nothing to it, but there's something about Gibsons, despite all their current flaws, that I still love and want to play over other guitars. Maybe it's the tradition, the countless records of amazing music that these instruments have played such an integral role in creating and the feeling that by playing one you're somehow inexorably linked to that. Probably just a load of balderdash but for me I guess it's legitimate. That, and I do love the way these guitars sound and feel over any others I've played, let alone look. I guess that's why I never even CONSIDERED a Heritage, which I'm sure are fantastic, even made in the same old plant, but there's just something about that peghead and the pearaloid name inlaid in it. That said I totally can relate to blackballing a company that has wronged you one too many times. That's why I refuse to fly United, but that's a whole other post on a whole other messageboard.

[Guest EastEnder]

Well you may have all the hallmarks of a no good commie, but at least you've imparted some great 6 string taste to your offspring. Any plans on what he might get instead? I hear a lot of great things about Collings, but I've never played one. Also, there might be nothing to it, but there's something about Gibsons, despite all their current flaws, that I still love and want to play over other guitars. Maybe it's the tradition, the countless records of amazing music that these instruments have played such an integral role in creating and the feeling that by playing one you're somehow inexorably linked to that. Probably just a load of balderdash but for me I guess it's legitimate. That, and I do love the way these guitars sound and feel over any others I've played, let alone look. I guess that's why I never even CONSIDERED a Heritage, which I'm sure are fantastic, even made in the same old plant, but there's just something about that peghead and the pearaloid name inlaid in it. That said I totally can relate to blackballing a company that has wronged you one too many times. That's why I refuse to fly United, but that's a whole other post on a whole other messageboard.

 

Thanks for the compliments (they're in there).

 

I don't know where we'll go from here. I'm leaning toward Bill Collings' I35-LC, but I hear the necks are really chunky (though I also hear that he'll make a neck to fit the customer's needs). But when I say I'm done with Gibson, I really mean modern Gibson. They really were fine guitars at one time and I'm not immune from considering older models. I would reject any Norlin and now any HJ.

 

As for Heritage, I've had a couple of H-535s. Great guitars and more realistically priced than Gibson. The headstock is, famously, a deal-killer. It has no aesthetic value at all. Chunky necks, too.

 

No doubt about it: the Gibson 335 has a historic place in guitar history. But these modern versions bear no resemblance to their earlier incarnations. The reissues are a joke with fewer people laughing as each day passes.

 

I've always wanted a brand, spanking-new L-5, but I can't chance it these days. Benedetto beckons.

 

Then again, I've got plenty of guitars lying around. Maybe it's time to turn off the GAS.

 

Best wishes.

 

EE

[badbluesplayer]

This is a known issue that Gibson is going to have to deal with. They will not be able to continue to sweep it under the rug. The issue seems to have arose around the same time that they were having trouble with their rosewood supply. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to start getting suspicious.

 

Hey Gibson - You guys know and I know that you guys have to get this wood dried out more consistently. What are you guys doing to yourselves? You guys have legal problems and you have quality control problems. Don't let your denial about your legal troubles bleed over into denial about your quality control issues.

 

If I sent y'all a bill you might listen.

[Guest EastEnder]

This is a known issue that Gibson is going to have to deal with. They will not be able to continue to sweep it under the rug. The issue seems to have arose around the same time that they were having trouble with their rosewood supply. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to start getting suspicious.

 

Hey Gibson - You guys know and I know that you guys have to get this wood dried out more consistently. What are you guys doing to yourselves? You guys have legal problems and you have quality control problems. Don't let your denial about your legal troubles bleed over into denial about your quality control issues.

 

If I sent y'all a bill you might listen.

 

People can just stop buying them, as have I.

 

Acquiring a Gibson now is an expensive proposition that can leave one wondering where the money can be found in the product. I look at other, similarly-priced guitars from other makers and can see and feel the quality that this kind of money buys.

 

I'm sure that the apparently overworked assembly personnel at the Gibson plants do their best under quota-driven conditions. But executive-level management is dropping the ball and heading the company name into has-been status. You coulda been a contender, Henry.

 

Norlin Redux.

 

EE

[Rock and Reel]

I'm relatively new here but it seems clear that the Gibson folks that monitor this board are disinclined, for whatever reason, to discuss quality control or come down on either side of anything controversial.

[bobouz]

I'm relatively new here but it seems clear that the Gibson folks that monitor this board are disinclined, for whatever reason, to discuss quality control or come down on either side of anything controversial.

I'm not a business or legal expert, but do understand some basics. It would be unwise for Gibson to make generalized public statements regarding quality control, warranties, etc. Such comments could potentially be used against them to establish a precedent or standard for current & future claims.

[Guest EastEnder]

I'm not a business or legal expert, but do understand some basics. It would be unwise for Gibson to make generalized public statements regarding quality control, warranties, etc. Such comments could potentially be used against them to establish a precedent or standard for current & future claims.

 

You're absolutely correct, bobouz, and I don't think any of us here actually expect a statement from Gibson concerning these matters. It would be corporate suicide.

 

I think it's enough that we're making the statements we make and, in some cases, looking hard at alternatives to the Gibson brand. Change will come — though perhaps not in my lifetime.

 

But I'm doing my part.

[bobouz]

Change will come — though perhaps not in my lifetime.

I'm lookin' at 61 this June, so I hear you on that one!

[martinh]

Here's a solution...

 

— Gibson-style binding method:

 

 

The fret ends butt up against the binding. When the fingerboard (brown) shrinks, it pulls the binding in against the non-shrinking frets. The binding finish and/or the binding itself cracks under pressure.

 

— Alternative method:

 

 

The black areas represent (exaggerated) gaps between the fret tang ends and the binding in the fret slot. When the fingerboard shrinks, nothing butts up against the binding so it doesn't crack. The fret ends lay over the binding. The worse that can happen with fingerboard shrinkage is that the fret ends can extend slightly beyond the edge of the fingerboard. An easy fix with a couple of file strokes. Done.

 

Drawings are pretty pathetic, but the point, I think, is demonstrated.

 

(By the way, not all Gibson fingerboards are made with binding nibs at fret ends. The Warren Haynes L.P. doesn't have them, and the frets extend over the binding)

 

 

Not only is this a good idea for preventing the ends of the fret tangs from cracking the binding but EPIPHONE appears to fret in exactly the manner shown in the second diagram! I 've been repairing a broken Epi Walnut Les Paul this month, and the fret tangs are undercut, and the fret slots do not reach the edges of the fretboard. If the overseas plant has the equipment to do this at a reasonable cost, I don't see why it should not be adopted in the US.