icyboy1976 Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Hi all, New to the forum...well, I used to be a member a fair time ago and struggled to regain access through old account...anyway! I know that there are some real helpful guys among the regs on here and am in a bit of a pickle! I have purchased a Gibson ES335 that was supposedly manufactured in 1965 but have a few doubts... The serial is 8***** and is stamped on the rear of the headstock and on the original orange label inside of the body...Obviously...according to all instances in publications of serials this is dated to 67.. The issue is this, I was assured by a very very well respected collector/ dealer here in the UK that this was an instance of duplication of serial numbers and that it is the guitars points of interest that reflect its year of manufacture... I have a fair knowledge of vintage gibsons but have never personally come across a serial duplication... What I was told...was true in my opinion originally...She has a brazilian rosewood fretboard, a pre 66 pickguard and truss rod cover,, she does however have chrome hardware which I am aware is a late 65 spec and she does have the shallower angled headstock at 14 deg which I am also aware could be 65...I was happy his dating until it occured to me that surely if duplication of serial was done...it would be 8***** being duplicated later than 67 and not before 67 unless Gibson had got ahead of themselves with the serial by 2 years?...I suppose there could have been a batch of guitars serialized in this late number range and then again duplicated later when they reached these numbers again...it was a strange time when gibson transitioned over to the norlin way of doing things...I do understand it possible but just have never come across it before. It was bugging me so much that I whipped out the pots...after 3 hrs...they were stamped 13765** but I could only see it on one as expected with 335 pot wiring and loom setting, all of the others had solder covering pretty much all of the codes.. My head is telling me 65 but it matters an awful lot to me that she is right...I paid top end for a 65 with Braz fretboard but if she is a 67 I have paid too much...My Gut tells me to trust the opinions of friends and my own head but the serial is bugging me...big time... Please help with any wisdom you may be able to throw my way... Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Since a serial number than high was not used prior to 1967, I think you have answered your own question. Unless your guitar is one of the early 1965 models that has the 1964 characteristics such as a wider (43mm) nut, nickel hardware, and a stop tail rather than a trap tail, there is little difference in value between a 1965 ES 335 and a 1967 ES 335, at least in the US. The location of the crown inlay on the front of the headstock should be another indicator, as I believe its lower edge dropped well below the centerline of the middle tuner posts in 1966. I have two late-60's Gibsons with Brazilian boards (one an ES 335-12), by the way. I'm not sure when they actually stopped doing those, but I would guess in 1969-1970 when Norlin really took over and cost-cutting became the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleinman Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Try to match your guitar with these specs: 1965 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Trapeze tailpiece replaces stop tailpiece (Bigsby vibrato is also still available), chrome parts replace nickel parts, neck nut width decreases from the standard 1 11/16" to 1 5/8" or 1 9/16" (known as the "small" neck, and this subtle 1/16" to 1/8" change is very noticible to anyone familar with these guitars). These changed transitioned in during 1965, so a 1965 model could still have a stop tail, nickle parts, and a 1 11/16" neck (or have chrome parts, trapeze, and a 1 9/16" neck). 1966 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Indian rosewood replaces Brazilian rosewood on fingerboard, peghead angle changed from 17 degrees to 14 degrees, bevel angle on pickguard changed so the b/w/b layers are less noticible. 1968 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Neck size increases back to 1 11/16" with a decently size back shape. 1969 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Walnut finish available. "f" holes cutouts get wider. Serial numbers: 859001 to 895038 1967 It may good to post of few pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Photos would be good. Can you describe the volume/tone knobs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Try to match your guitar with these specs: 1965 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Trapeze tailpiece replaces stop tailpiece (Bigsby vibrato is also still available), chrome parts replace nickel parts, neck nut width decreases from the standard 1 11/16" to 1 5/8" or 1 9/16" (known as the "small" neck, and this subtle 1/16" to 1/8" change is very noticible to anyone familar with these guitars). These changed transitioned in during 1965, so a 1965 model could still have a stop tail, nickle parts, and a 1 11/16" neck (or have chrome parts, trapeze, and a 1 9/16" neck). 1966 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Indian rosewood replaces Brazilian rosewood on fingerboard, peghead angle changed from 17 degrees to 14 degrees, bevel angle on pickguard changed so the b/w/b layers are less noticible. 1968 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Neck size increases back to 1 11/16" with a decently size back shape. 1969 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Walnut finish available. "f" holes cutouts get wider. Serial numbers: 859001 to 895038 1967 It may good to post of few pics. Some of the spec changes quoted above may not be correct. For example, it seems the nut width did not go back to 1 11/16" (43mm) in 1968. That is apparently a myth that has been perpetuated by some sources. To the best of my knowledge, you won't see a 1 11/16" nut width on an ES-335 again until the dot re-issue of 1981. For one of the best sources of information on the history and features of the ES 335, follow Charlie Gelber's excellent blog/website, es-335.org. He has played, collected, bought, and sold these for much of the last 40 years. Several of the print and online resources on the ES 335 have significantly conflicting details on when certain changes took place, so you may not be able to rely absolutely on any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icyboy1976 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Hey guys, Thanks for your replays so far... Ok so I will post some pics tomorrow evening if you could be so kind as to wait till then but in the meantime I have checked the headstock crown against my friends 67 335 only through pictures though and the bottom of the crown logo is exactly in line with the centre of the A and B middle tuners and his is roughly level with the bottom of the tuner ring about 4 mm below the position of mine. These are the pointers on my guitar before I put pics up... 1. The crown logo is central to mid tuners 2. The tuners are double line double ring klusons 3. The truss cover has the early wide bevel edge as does the pick guard 4. One readable pot states 13765** as the code, all electrics are original and untouched for certain. 5. The headstock angle, from what I can tell is 14 deg 6. The volume and tone knobs which to me are original and before I removed to expose pots seemed unchanged are the earlier gold reflector knobs. 7. The saddles are nylon and seem original to the bridge, can't guarantee bridge is original to this guitar though. 8. But width is 40mm which I can only estimate at 1 9/16 maybe 1 5/8..? 9. Fingerboard is definitely Brazilian rosewood. 10. All hardware is chrome. But.... Serial is 8***** ... Stating 67...? I do hope I can rest in peace on this... I know in the US prices are not much different between 65 and 67 but I bought it as a 65 and really just hope it is... Thanks again for your help guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 But.... Serial is 868425... Stating 67...? I do hope I can rest in peace on this... I know in the US prices are not much different between 65 and 67 but I bought it as a 65 and really just hope it is... Thanks again for your help guys... You are asking for something that no one here can give you: an absolute guarantee that your guitar was made in 1965. Most of the characteristics you cite would indicate a late 1965 or later, but most of them are what we call replaceable items. This includes things like truss rod covers, pickguards, tuner buttons, and volume/tone knobs. None of these things is definitive, since they can be replaced with no physical evidence that a change has been made. The only definitive dating characteristic you have to go by is the serial number, and none of my sources show that number as anything other than 1967. I have no record of numbers in the 8000's prior to 1966. That doesn't mean that you won't find another source that shows a different serial number reference. And with all due respect, it isn't necessarily easy to differentiate Brazilian rosewood from other varieties--particularly in pieces such a fingerboards--as each piece of wood is different. I have Gibsons with boards that I know are Brazilian due to the date of manufacture, but are indistinguishable from wood on guitars that are definitely after the switch away from Brazilian due to their more modern manufacture dates. Just enjoy your guitar for what it is. In the US, a good trap-tail, narrow-nut '65 in excellent shape might bring about $5K. The same guitar in the same condition with a '67 serial number might bring about $500-$1k less if someone really wants one with the earlier date. An early '65 with a stop tail, wider nut, and nickel hardware might bring about $7-8K in todays' US market. Your experience may vary. You are obsessing about something that no one can answer definitively for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 8. But width is 40mm which I can only estimate at 1 9/16 maybe 1 5/8..? A nut measurement of 40mm is equivalent to 1.5748", which is approximately (just slightly under) 1 9/16". Much closer to that than 1 5/8". It's odd to think of someone going so far as to change a truss rod cover to try to deceive a buyer about a '65 vs a '67 ES335, but I'm sure it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icyboy1976 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Thanks, I think that maybe I am being a little misunderstood and I'm sorry if I am leading you all along the wrong path... I am only trying to find out if anyone has ever come across such a similar guitar before where everything seems to date a 335 or any other Gibson for that matter to 65 and the documented/unreliable serial number dates 67... I could understand it the other way round but not this way. I am not after a definitative answer which I know no-one can give... Just opinions on what people have come across... Many state that duplication occurred yet in my years of collecting I have never had a question raised like this. The cost is an issue but I'm sure I'll get over it... It's more a search to be able to find someone that says its possible as they have seen it before and then I will be happy... I know that parts are removable etc... And that pots could have been left over from preceding years.. But as people keep saying, why change certain parts to make a guitar seem 2 years older? Also the matter of principle is bugging me... This guy is a very very well known dealer and has a great amount of respect and the guitar came from a collector that has unbelievable credit. I just want to know if it's possible and from someone who might be able to assure me this... Thanks for all of your info do far guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleinman Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I, as a collector, go by the serial number and the obvious physical specs of the guitar. But the serial number to me is of utmost importance. If I am not convinced of the authenticity of a guitar I will not buy it. Period. I mean how am I to convince anybody else (when wanting to sell) if the serial number does not support my claim ? To be honest the seller should have pointed out the issue of doubt around the serial number, AND you should have checked it and done your research before you bought the guitar.(sorry, I'm not preaching ) AFAIK there is no evidence that that particular series of numbers have been used for '65 models ? The serial number is just about the only real evidence we have to support a specific year model. I am currently dealing with the issue of wrong year identification by a seller (see topic: Gibson ES-330)in this very vintage section. In this case the seller claims the guitar is from '66, but the specs indicate it to be from '68/'69. One thing which may ease your mind is that the sound of a laminated guitar,(like the ES-335 or -330) unlike a solid top guitar, does not improve with age...so a '65 is no better sounding than a '66 or later. Should you wish to sell at a later stage, rather date your guitar according to the serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Thanks, I think that maybe I am being a little misunderstood and I'm sorry if I am leading you all along the wrong path... I am only trying to find out if anyone has ever come across such a similar guitar before where everything seems to date a 335 or any other Gibson for that matter to 65 and the documented/unreliable serial number dates 67... I could understand it the other way round but not this way. Why? Please elaborate on that. I am not after a definitative answer which I know no-one can give... Just opinions on what people have come across... Many state that duplication occurred yet in my years of collecting I have never had a question raised like this. Duplication occurred with some numbers, but not in the number range that your guitar is in. Your serial number is a 1967 number. No duplication of your number occurred (I think at least three of us have pointed this out now). The cost is an issue but I'm sure I'll get over it... It's more a search to be able to find someone that says its possible as they have seen it before and then I will be happy... I think it's safe to say that you're very unlikely to come across anyone (let alone someone who happens to read this forum) who has seen this specific situation before. I know that parts are removable etc... And that pots could have been left over from preceding years.. But as people keep saying, why change certain parts to make a guitar seem 2 years older? The fact that we're having this discussion points to the fact that '65's are seen as slightly more desirable and valuable than '67's, for a variety of reasons, and that's why it's conceivable that someone intentionally tried to mislead you. Also the matter of principle is bugging me... ...and that's understandable. This guy is a very very well known dealer and has a great amount of respect and the guitar came from a collector that has unbelievable credit. With regard to respect, it often depends on who you ask. I'm not familiar with many UK dealers specifically, otherwise I'd ask you who we're talking about here. I might suggest that you mention the name anyway, in case there are others here who may have relevant opinions about this person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frutiger Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hello, I'm another newbie here. I thought I'd start by trying to help with this. In answer to the OP's question, in my experience the earliest it can be with an 8xxxx is 1966. The crown position and the braz board point to it being pre 1967 though. A '66 would also have original reflectors but not a wide bevel TRC and plate. It's entirely possible for someone to have changed the parts to earlier ones though, I bought a 1967 ES345 and a 1973 ES335 last week (went a bit mad, the wife wasn't happy) and the very first thing I did was ditch the narrow bevel TRC and scratchplate for early wider versions on both of them (well on the 335 I just re-beveled the existing plate to the 60 degree bevel) and dump the witch hats for reflectors. Apart from the plastic there really isn't much difference between a 65 and a 66, and hopefully you've not paid too much over the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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