tvguit Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Music City Pickers in Nashville (great guys by the way- they have some real eye candy on their website!!) posted a picture of a supposed 1961 ES-125 on Instagram '61 ES-125??. When I saw the picture I was not quite sure. After some research and a phone call to Music City Pickers I wrote a post on my blog about why my opinion differed from theirs Blog post about the 125. In the post I detailed the problems I had with their assessment. They said that they had verified it with Joe Glaser, Todd Money (at Gibson Repair) and Gibson Customer Service. What is your opinion? Am I totally wrong here? Archtop guys can you weigh in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Tell ya' what I notice. The knobs for the bridge pickup are way off line, a sign the second p'up was added by a guy who didn't have a ruler. In fact...all the knobs are mispositioned, so it looks like a complete conversion. Shame on them for passing it off as original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvguit Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Good snag Jed. I didn't notice that at first but you are right. The top left knob is way out of line. The bridge pickup too. From their website "features a very rare combination of Gibson features - ALL OF WHICH ARE FACTORY ORIGINAL!!! First, let us assure you that ALL of the information you're about to read has been verified by the Gibson customer service department, as well as Joe Glaser of Glaser Instruments, who just happens to be the luthier of choice for such notable players as Vince Gill, Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Eric Clapton, Bela Fleck, Brad Whitford, Joe Perry, Bob Dylan, and MANY, MANY others." But we know this is a red herring. Joe Glaser is a REPAIR guy. Not a vintage enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think you've probably nailed this, although the real question would be whether this is even a factory job. I just looked at it quickly, and it would take a first-hand inspection to really pin it down. The pot date, plus the witch hats (I know, I know, they are easily replaced) suggest mid/late 60's. At first glance, this looks like a converted early 30's L-50. (Don't have the body dimensions on this to be sure) The Gibson repair shop did a lot of odd work in the mid/late 60's. They certainly butchered my 1948 J-45 when I sent it to them for a top re-glue in 1968. Their work was suprisingly cheap and competent, but the concept of a "vintage" guitar, and how to maintain its originality, was in its infancy then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 tvguit, your blog page said it all. Between the headstock/script logo, the neck, the spruce top, etc, this could not be a 1961 ES125. They weren't even using chrome covers on P90's at that time, and I don't think they ever did on 1960's ES125's. This guitar is clearly a conversion, and I would even suggest (I would bet on it, in fact) that it's been refinished. If all of the people mentioned (the shop that had it, the repair guy, the Gibson reps) really said that this was an original 1961 ES125, then first of all that's very sad, and secondly, it emphasizes the fact that we're in the midst of a dumbing-down process where people no longer pay attention to details about vintage Gibsons. And this one wasn't even that difficult to figure out. By the way, the asymmetry of the control knobs is not really so unusual for some Gibsons. I've seen this many times on 125's. Even one of the examples in Duchossoir's book (page 169) exhibits this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvguit Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 I felt the same way. The point of that post was not to bust Music City Pickers. I have met them and they are good guys. They know their stuff. In this case they were not correct and instead of accepting that fact they decided to stick to their guns. In my opinion, dating vintage Gibsons is an art and always up for discussion. Most importantly, there is always someone that knows more. Always. And that is ok! Don't hook your pride on whether or not it is a '61 125. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I felt the same way. The point of that post was not to bust Music City Pickers. I have met them and they are good guys. They know their stuff. In this case they were not correct and instead of accepting that fact they decided to stick to their guns. In my opinion, dating vintage Gibsons is an art and always up for discussion. Most importantly, there is always someone that knows more. Always. And that is ok! Don't hook your pride on whether or not it is a '61 125. I know what you mean, and it's great that they're good guys. Treating people well and being honest are very important. Still, you can be honest and have integrity, but still lack knowledge and expertise. In a case like this where it's really pretty obvious (I mean right off the bat, with that 1930's/40's style headstock script) that this guitar was not a 1961 Gibson, let alone an original ES125, I would definitely not say that those folks "know their stuff" (at least as it pertains to vintage Gibsons). That's not being mean, that's just a fact. If people are going to handle vintage guitars in their shops, they reallly should educate themselves. It's ironic to me that the store in question is in Nashville, which is the home of Gruhn Guitars (one of the centers of the vintage guitar world), and so much vintage guitar history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I know what you mean, and it's great that they're good guys. Treating people well and being honest are very important. Still, you can be honest and have integrity, but still lack knowledge and expertise. In a case like this where it's really pretty obvious (I mean right off the bat, with that 1930's/40's style headstock script) that this guitar was not a 1961 Gibson, let alone an original ES125, I would definitely not say that those folks "know their stuff" (at least as it pertains to vintage Gibsons). That's not being mean, that's just a fact. If people are going to handle vintage guitars in their shops, they reallly should educate themselves. It's ironic to me that the store in question is in Nashville, which is the home of Gruhn Guitars (one of the centers of the vintage guitar world), and so much vintage guitar history. Re: the placement of the knobs...I've seen slight asymmetry in the setting of these before, but this one takes the cake. Like a drunk drilled out the holes. Some forgiving words have been offered here, but it's not like a Craigslist seller put it up. The long elegant description on the site is doubly ridiculous given the store's proclaimed expertise, and I'd probably let them know that it at least seems deceptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Re: the placement of the knobs...I've seen slight asymmetry in the setting of these before, but this one takes the cake. Like a drunk drilled out the holes. Yeah, I looked at some photos of some Gibsons with asymmetrical knobs, and you're right- these seem to be even worse. Some forgiving words have been offered here, but it's not like a Craigslist seller put it up. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I've already posted this on the Trading Post forum, but just for laughs in case many of you don't subscribe to that thread, here's what I described as the greatest all-time ebay guitar listing. For some reason, the crooked knobs reminded me of it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/390479547316?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I've already posted this on the Trading Post forum, but just for laughs in case many of you don't subscribe to that thread, here's what I described as the greatest all-time ebay guitar listing. For some reason, the crooked knobs reminded me of it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/390479547316?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 I MIGHT give him ten bucks for it as a piece of folk art to hang on the wall as a conversation piece. Then again, I might not... I don't think my wife would let it in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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