cmanoli98 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Hoping someone out there can help. I have an early 1980's Ephiphone Riviera. I am the original onwer. There is no serial number on it, but it does have a Gisbon, Kalamazoo, MI sticker on the inside with the model but nothing where the serial number should be. I know this guitar was made in Japan and I was told sometimes the serial number was on the base of the neck under the pickups. So I checked and found a hand written "7" with a stamp 15-012. Is anyone familiar with these or even heard of this before? Is there any demand for this particular model? I have not been able to find one like it anywhere. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 A picture would help a lot. Assuming it's not a Japanese domestic market model (quite rare outside of Japan), the Japanese built Rivieras from 1980 to 1985 all had the serial number printed on the back of the headstock underneath the finish. They also had blotchy brown, oblong labels inside the upper F hole. Later than '85 they were made in Korea. I think the serial numbers for those were on stickers on the rear of the headstock and they had oval labels. Earlier than '80 had blue rectangular labels. If yours has a bolt on neck and a blue oblong label then it's one of the EA250 or similar models (almost certain if it's bright, glossy red). If it has a fixed neck and a blue oblong label it could be a Japanese domestic market model. Like I said to start, a picture would be worth a thousand words. In order of desirability (or demand) I would say (but others may feel differently) USA Made Japanese domestic market models '80 to '85 Japanese (Matsumoku) models Later Korean models EA 250 bolt on neck models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batwing Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Maybe one of these? As jonnyg said, Matsumoku, the late 70's have double block inlays where as the later Japanese had single. I've had this one for several years, great guitars. Like all of the non-USA models the necks are chunkier than 60s originals and have humbuckers of course. Available in cherry and walnut from what I've seen, several on ebay in the last 12 months from $1000 - $2000, you can pick them up cheaper if you look around.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 According to Walter Carter's latest publication "The Epiphone Guitar Book - A Complete History of Epiphone Guitars", there were two years ('81 and '82) where Rivieras were made in Japan before Norlin sold out to Henry Juszkiewicz and partners in '86. All the semi and hollow bodies produced after that (with exception of the Elite/Elitist Line) were made in Korea and now in China. I'm guessing your Riviera looks like this '81: If so, it was made in Japan, is very nicely constructed and moderately collectible. In order of desirability (or demand) I would say (but others may feel differently) USA Made Japanese domestic market models '80 to '85 Japanese (Matsumoku) models Later Korean models EA 250 bolt on neck models I would add to this list the MIJ Elite/Elitist line, at or above the desirability of the Matsumoku models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 According to Walter Carter's latest publication "The Epiphone Guitar Book - A Complete History of Epiphone Guitars", there were two years ('81 and '82) where Rivieras were made in Japan before Norlin sold out to Henry Juszkiewicz and partners in '86. All the semi and hollow bodies produced after that (with exception of the Elite/Elitist Line) were made in Korea and now in China. While I hate to question the expertise of Walter Carter, it would seem in this instance that he is mistaken. Decoding the serial numbers for Matsomoku built guitars is the simplest system I've come across. The first number indicates the year with the second two giving the month. I've seen Rivieras with 0, 3 and 5 as the leading number giving 1980, '83 and '85 as the year. In addition, the later, post '85, guitars built in Korea were very different to the previous MIJ instruments. Body shape, neck binding and pickups were all very different as was the shape of the neck. Information is where you find it, and a book from 1990 by Tony Bacon and Paul Day called 'The Guru's Guitar Guide' states that the Riviera, Casino, Sheraton and Emperor were all available (in the UK) between 1983 and 1986 and are described as Made In Japan. Although I've posted this pic before, I've reposted my own Riviera from 1983 with a serial number starting 305**** giving a manufacturing date of May 1983. This guitar was purchased new in August 1983. The only difference between mine and the picture you posted is the addition of pickup covers and the headstock inlay. Oh, and the gold control knobs which I changed from the black 'witch hat' type. You can just see the same 'blotchy brown' oblong label inside the upper 'F' hole. I would add to this list the MIJ Elite/Elitist line, at or above the desirability of the Matsumoku models Agreed, but they weren't made in the 80's which is where I left off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I have the Matsu Riviera listed as being produced until 1984 in the wiki. Cant remember what my source for that particular info was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmanoli98 Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 Brian - That is the exact guitar! Thanks for the info! According to Walter Carter's latest publication "The Epiphone Guitar Book - A Complete History of Epiphone Guitars", there were two years ('81 and '82) where Rivieras were made in Japan before Norlin sold out to Henry Juszkiewicz and partners in '86. All the semi and hollow bodies produced after that (with exception of the Elite/Elitist Line) were made in Korea and now in China. I'm guessing your Riviera looks like this '81: If so, it was made in Japan, is very nicely constructed and moderately collectible. I would add to this list the MIJ Elite/Elitist line, at or above the desirability of the Matsumoku models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Rob, Charlie and Jonny, FWIW, here are the relevant pages on the early 80's semis and hollows from Carter's new book (my highlights). Some of this info is sketchy even to him, since no one currently employed at Gibson/Epiphone was around in those days, so he's working from oral history and whatever records he can find in the files. BTW, the book is pretty good, I'd recommend getting it. I'm 2/3 though it and the only complaint I have so far is that he seems to almost entirely skip over the Elitist line. http://www.amazon.co...ils_o00_s00_i00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Those cards are from 1982. The date is printed on them. I have digital copies of both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Those cards are from 1982. The date is printed on them. I have digital copies of both sides. That's the part that confuses me - he says that those models were being sold until '86, but the serial numbers I've seen seem to indicate that they were only built in '81 and '82. I'm thinking that they had a fair amount of warehouse stock and just kept shipping them until they ran out and Norlin bailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Also, in the last paragraph of that page it he claims that the brochure with the Gibson and Epiphone headstocks is from 1984. He also credits Steve Brown from Vintaxe.com for many pics in the appendix...I'm assuming catalog pics. However, Brown has that brochure on his site and claims that it is from 1982. As well, Brown claims on his website that the cards mentioned earlier are from 1980-1982, not 1983. So which is it? As someone who has spent the past two years reasearching Epiphones almost full time while striving for accuracy, the more I learn about this book, the less I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Rob, I agree that Carter's books aren't 100% accurate, but in his defense there is really way too much info out there (some of it vague and conflicting) to pack into 175 pages (with pictures), and not enough of a market to make into a printed master reference guide like your amazing Wiki. He did get the Genesis bits right, or at least consistent with his last book and what Jim Walker has told me. But no photos, booo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Rob, I agree that Carter's books aren't 100% accurate, but in his defense there is really way too much info out there (some of it vague and conflicting) to pack into 175 pages (with pictures), and not enough of a market to make into a printed master reference guide like your amazing Wiki. He did get the Genesis bits right, or at least consistent with his last book and what Jim Walker has told me. But no photos, booo! I get what you are saying, Brian, and omitting info is one thing. But this is glaringly obvious. I guess that I just expect more accuracy from the leading Epiphone historian. It seems like he skipped out on researching certain things (like accurate dates) so that the book could be out by January to coincide with Epiphone's 150th anniversary for the sake of sales. From an accuracy standpoint, I take issue with that. I feel that with the release of this book, from Walter Carter no less, that people are going to compare notes between it and the wiki, being as expansive as the wiki is and Carters use of difinitive dates. It makes me look like I'm just slapping up numbers to fill in the blanks. I was initially excited about this book because I thought that I would be able to use it as a reference to gain a little more accuracy in the wiki. Thats is definitely not going to happen now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Fair enough. Perhaps we need to start working on our own book.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Fair enough. Perhaps we need to start working on our own book.... I'd be onboard with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I'm thinking that they had a fair amount of warehouse stock and just kept shipping them until they ran out and Norlin bailed. I think that would only have been possible if they had been laying about unfinished. The serial numbers on the MIJ Rivieras etc were under the finish and were numbered as I described earlier. I'll tell you how I know about the numbering system. From the mid 70's until the late 80's I had my guitars serviced, set up and repaired by a luthier called Peter Cook in Ealing near London. Peter is probably most famous for the basses he made for John Entwhistle of The Who and work he did on Pete Townsends guitars, in particular the three pickup Les Pauls. He also designed the Ned Callan and Axis ranges of guitars and basses. Later he worked for Gibson and the majority of Gibsons that came into England passed through his workshop for final inspection. Around that time he opened a shop and I bought several guitars from him, one of which was the Riviera. This was 1983, the time when people were starting to get precious about how old their guitars were. When I bought the guitar Peter (as a joke) said I'd probably want to know how old it was someday so he explained the system to me. Now, I don't know, and wouldn't want to say, if he is or was as knowledgeable about Gibson or Epiphone as Walter Carter in general, but at that time he was a hands on Gibson guy and why would he lie? As for years, I have the '83 Riviera and Frenchie (don't see him around here much these days) had a Casino from '84. If it's of any interest to you, I'll take a pic of the serial number on the rear of the Riviera and post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Although I've posted this pic before, I've reposted my own Riviera from 1983 with a serial number starting 305**** giving a manufacturing date of May 1983. This guitar was purchased new in August 1983. T That would mean that my Emperor Thinline was made in December of '81, unit #1146: So to prove the point, we need to see some serial numbers that start with 3, 4 or 5 (year), then a 01 to 12 digit (month), and 4 more digits (unit number). It's hard to imagine that Epiphone was building many guitars in 1985 as they would have been trying to cut expenses to increase the company's book value as they readied it for sale which occurred on January 15, 1986 (to Henry J & Co. for ~$5 million ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I have the Emperor T listed as being produced for export from 1980-1984. It was JDM only from 1975-1979. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I have the Emperor T listed as being produced for export from 1980-1984. It was JDM only from 1975-1979. That seems more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Here's my '83. Sorry for the bad pic, crap phone camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Its really hard to find Epiphones from 1983-1985. And the closer you get to 1985, the harder they are to find. There is only a small handful of models that I know for sure (off the top of my head) that were made between those years. 1985 is the new 1959. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Now how do we explain this 80's MIJ Riviera (same model as the OP's) with no serial number and a Made In Japan sticker on the back of the headstock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I've got the same dates for the Riviera as I do the Emperor. This is obviously a Matsumoku with the MMK pickups. Did the Rivieras have MMKs in them from 1980-1984? Maybe its a 1979 JDM. Could be the reason there is no serial or "Made in Japan" stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I've got the same dates for the Riviera as I do the Emperor. This is obviously a Matsumoku with the MMK pickups. Did the Rivieras have MMKs in them from 1980-1984? Maybe its a 1979 JDM. Could be the reason there is no serial or "Made in Japan" stamp. The one above was owned by a guy in Montreal. It's a dead match to Charlie's Riviera (the original poster) who bought his new in the US in the early 80's. It's also a dead match for the one shown here from Carter's book: Interestingly, my Emperor T, besides also having the MMK pickups, has "79" marked in the bridge pickup cavity, as if the body was made up in '79 and not finished until the end of 1981: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Check this ebay listing out. Scroll down the page, as the listing has ended. Read what the seller says about the guitar below the Auctiva pics. http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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