Bendy Necks on 335s?

[SwissFrank]

I owned a Korean Epiphone "335" (Sheraton II) in college in 1987. It made all my songs sound great, it made me sound more skilled than I was. But I ran it into the ground via ultra-low humidity and too many penny-wise-pound-foolish electronics DIY's.

 

By 2000 though, I told myself I could afford a "real" 335 this time around, and got a drop-dead gorgeous 335 "dot" figured natural. The looks of that model still make me weak in the knees.

 

In the music store it didn't sound great, but I chalked that up to the noisy environment, playing through a strange (to me) amp, not the FX I was used to, no strap (didn't think to ask for one) etc. But I got it home and it actually sucked.

 

The suckiest part was that when I leaned slightly back, the weight of my left arm sufficed to drive it sharp. Lean forward and it'd go flat. I played it less than an hour a month despite not being a big fan of my other electric.

 

When I bought my Collings D2H-AV, the retailer explained to me that in his opinion the big fat necks on early Martins was one of the keys to their good sound: it made a steady foundation for the string to vibrate, instead of expending its energy making a floppy neck vibrate. And it seemed borne out.

 

So around 2010, a proper vintage 335 was coming into my budgetary range. I tried a half-dozen early 60's 335s and found they all sounded weak. I was NOT able to find a dot-era vintage. One day, after playing 2 new 335's and 2 from the early 60's, I spotted a $300 used Chinese version of my old Korean knockoff. I tried it and by gosh it rocked. The neck was big and fat. Its materials and workmanship aren't great--doesn't play well or sound good above the 12th fret etc., but chords sound really chunky and have great sustain.

 

Anyway, last summer I added a 2012 Super 400 to my harem... and the neck is like a baseball bat and there is no body position that affects the pitch in the least. And of course the purity of sound puts everything else I own to shame.

 

So between these experiences I became a convert to fat necks. I don't say I prefer them to play, but I am pretty sure they will always sound better.

 

-----

 

QUESTION 1 for you guys is, do many people agree that fat necks sound better? Or do you think my 2000 dot figured (which the Gibson website now points out does NOT have the fat neck of the original dots) actually just had an unusually bad neck?

 

QUESTION 2: any other variations in 335s that really affect the sound? Specifically I'm looking at power-pop, lots of Gmaj, Dmaj chords and stuff, hard strumming, long sustain a plus, ballsy tough sound here.

 

QUESTION 3: does anyone (inc. Gibson personnel lurking here?) have any idea what in a Sheraton II would make it sound especially different (better to my ears) than a real 335, besides the neck? EG I'm sure the quality of workmanship and materials and electronics would all hinder the Sheraton II and yet it seems to have something very tough in the sound that to me at least is a plus.

 

QUESTION 4: does the explicitly "Fat Neck" 335 model have the same neck as the Sheraton II? It claims to have a smaller body on the Gibson website, but is it noticeably smaller? (I've noticed that once you're used to an 18" Super 400 even a 17" L-5 feels like a toy. And the 339 isn't for me.)

 

QUESTION 5: setting appearance aside, is there any consensus of which current 335 has the best sound (in terms described in question 2)?

 

QUESTION 6: does Gibson Custom Shop actually take custom orders?

 

QUESTION 7: if it were to do so, are there any variations that one should request besides (in my opinion) fat neck (if your priority is as described in question 2)?

 

QUESTION 8: again if it were to do so, any chance they'd actually take a custom order for an **Epiphone** model? Say with a top-grade figured body, but the neck shape of a Super 400, and the Epiphone headstock, flower and name?

 

QUESTION 9: if it were NOT to do so, what are the chances you could buy a figured natural 335 today, and have a luthier dismantle it and have fatter neck installed without the result being unsightly and/or unplayable?

[badbluesplayer]

They DO make 335's with a fat neck.

 

My Sheraton II had a super-skinny neck but the necks are maple, I think. Maple is stiffer. Maple will sound different, I guess.

 

335's have more variation in their sound - from one guitar to the next - than most guitars. Most people say you really have to play a few to find a really great one.

[jimmyl51]

Just curious as to how you went from a 335 to a Super 400!? Aspirations of being the next Kenny Burrell maybe ;>)!? jim in Maine

[SwissFrank]

Just curious as to how you went from a 335 to a Super 400!? Aspirations of being the next Kenny Burrell maybe ;>)!? jim in Maine

 

Jim, I don't play complicated stuff, mainly what I'd call power-pop, so arguably changing instruments to get different sounds is more important to me than people who have the talent to say whatever they want with just one instrument. I'd say my Super 400 is getting half my time, with a (humbucking) Tennessee Rose and a (humbucking) Tele Thinline getting honorable mention. When I get out my solidbodies (LP, strat, solid tele), I usually put them down in 15 minutes due to lack of chemistry even though they're really immaculate instruments. In contrast I DO have chemistry with this Sheraton (like I did 1988-1995 with my first one), but put it down in 15 minutes because it just can't do the higher frets well.

 

After letting my 335 Dot Figured "floppy neck" sit in the case 2000-2005, I had thought I had just grown in a different direction than 335s go, but this second Sheraton has me convinced now that the magic is still there. I just hope to god I can find a 335 now with that solid chunkiness I like in the Sheratons, but with the materials and workmanship to sound great up the neck.

 

Accordingly, I'm spending this week going around Tokyo trying Historical '59, '63, VOS '59, Dot Figured Top (again) and a Fat Neck, and I'll try another half-dozen pre-'63 vintage instruments too.

[j45nick]

 

After letting my 335 Dot Figured "floppy neck" sit in the case 2000-2005, I had thought I had just grown in a different direction than 335s go, but this second Sheraton has me convinced now that the magic is still there. I just hope to god I can find a 335 now with that solid chunkiness I like in the Sheratons, but with the materials and workmanship to sound great up the neck.

 

Accordingly, I'm spending this week going around Tokyo trying Historical '59, '63, VOS '59, Dot Figured Top (again) and a Fat Neck, and I'll try another half-dozen pre-'63 vintage instruments too.

 

Necks on the 335 changed constantly during the 1960's, from the big, fat necks of 1959 to the fairly shallow necks of the early/mid 60's and back again a bit in '63-64 as I understand it, starting to get thin again (in depth) from maybe 1965 and on. I have a 1968 ES 335 whose neck is quite thin (in addition to being narrow at the nut). I have a Nashville '59 ES 335 Historic which has a nice, fat neck that you would probably have trouble bending, unless you are Superman. I highly recvommend those, by the way.

 

If you are buying 1960's ES 335's, I would not buy one without a first-hand inspection to determine the neck profile, if those differences bother you. In buying 60's vintage ES 335's, you also want a first-hand inspection to verify that the components are original, as that is a great determinant of value.

[Jayyj]

Generally, I would support the notion that, all other things being equal, the stiffness of the neck will have some impact on tone. I would expect this to be more obvious in acoustics, and it's incredibly hard to isolate the very subtle effects of neck depth from other small variables in the subject guitars, but the theory makes sense.

 

The Sheraton, or at least the Korean versions, has a five piece Maple / Walnut laminate: that's a pretty stiff piece of wood, so would arguably give the Sheraton a different tone to that of a 335 with a one piece Mahogany neck. SOme of the earlier versions, certainly early Samick made examples, also have Mahogany rather than Maple centre blocks, although I doubt this is the case on a modern Chinese version.

 

My ES-355 has the typical 70s three piece Maple neck, and the 70s 335 family do seem to have a brasher tone than the 60s versions that I suspect is largely the result of the Maple laminate. Of course, if you go looking for a 70s ES-335 you'll have assorted minus points to consider other than the Maple neck - but I'm fond of mine and it's certainly an interesting guitar, Norlin or not. Some will also swear that the Ebony board of a 355 has an effect on the tone, so it might be worth giving a 355 a try. If you set Gibson aside, there are also some great alternative takes on the 335 such as Collings which might be worth a try.

 

I also have a Japanese Epi Casino with a Maple neck that sounds crunchier and brighter than my 60s ES-330 - although it also has the skinniest neck of any electric I've owned.

[stein]

They DO make 335's with a fat neck.

 

My Sheraton II had a super-skinny neck but the necks are maple, I think. Maple is stiffer. Maple will sound different, I guess.

 

335's have more variation in their sound - from one guitar to the next - than most guitars. Most people say you really have to play a few to find a really great one.

I'm gonna mirror this comment, as I find it describes my experience.

 

Again, the obvious, maple vs hog neck. But I'm also gonna add, 'neck flex' you are describing happens on other guitars as well, as there are many thin hog necks on LP's as well as SG's. I find it a little curious that you have issue with it. I play pretty hard personally, and although I can get neck flexing, I have no issues with it. I mean, I believe you, just not sure how you play or wrench the guitar hard enough to where it's an issue.

 

Gotta mirror the differences in guitars as well. There is what seems to be a wider spread in tone between individual guitar with the the Gibby 335 than other models. Bright ones are really bright, and dark ones are really dark. As well as acoustically loud vs soft like a solid. Has more to do with chance than which model it is.

 

They do make some with fat necks, but at the same time, some necks "flex" more than others depending on the particular neck shape and particular chunk of wood.

 

Basically, you know what you are after, and you know the issues you speak of. So you know what to look for. But you can only check these things yourself and in person. I think you can find it, but not on the net.

[SwissFrank]

Yes, I do know what I'm looking for... I just know it doesn't exist 8-)

 

I want a "fat neck" with natural figured top and I'd prefer an Epiphone headstock to honor the fact that it was an Epi model that showed me the way. (Also the big headstock may help the tone just a bit: have you even noticed a guitar sounds better if you press the neck into a wall? I think the less that end of the string moves--and a larger, heavier headstock probably influences that--the more "normally" the string can vibrate and the better it should sound.)

 

Neck flex: I have no idea how many guitars I've had that would have better tone were the string to be vibrating the neck less and the body more--as you say probably less a factor on electrics anyway.

 

However I've had I think three guitars where the neck flex was changing pitch at least a couple cents unintentionally: a tiny problem on my 1975 Thinline, and on this 2009 Chinese Sheraton, and a huge problem on the 2000 Dot Figured 335.

 

As you say, its not just size, its partly down to the wood. This Sheraton has a huge neck but it still bends a bit. Many of my guitars have smaller, simple one-piece maple necks (eg Strat) with no bend at all.

 

I also have a theory its down to the body: one thing I LOVE about the 335 is how it glues itself to me, and my forearm like up to my elbow can rest on the guitar. That holds the body in position, so when my left arm moves (say, as I lean back) the guitar isn't free to move and as something has to give, the pitch changes. In contrast only like half my forearm sits on a strat; when my left arm moves, the guitar is free to move with it. Hence no pitch change.

 

------

 

Yes, thanks for all the cautions to examine first-hand, ESPECIALLY the innards of an early-60s 335. I woudln't have known to check for re-solders in addition to the components themselves being original had I not tripped across some articles last week. Its a real dilemma as I'd like a neck coiltap with no-load, but that'd be out of the question unless the guitar already had serious "collectability" issues. I'm lucky to live in Tokyo where just between the top three retailers there's 450+ 335's on sale. The unlucky part is that everything will cost 10-30% more than the US even after dickering and playing the "starving foreign musician" card...

 

http://1484.bz/shibuya/gibson/?c=hnavitop (click the 335)

 

http://www.ikebe-gakki.com/ (enter Gibson 335 in the text box near the top, where the king is pointing)

 

http://www.kurosawagakki.com/tags/keyword/?str=Gibson+335

 

Vintage only: http://www.hyperguitars.com/search/?br=&md=335&kw=&ya=&r=&cp=&sk=rd

[soundjunkie]

Bendy necks can occur with any wood species. I have a solid maple neck guitar that bends like it was made out of balsa wood and a mahogany neck that woudn't bend if it were stepped on. Bendy necks suck. My maple neck bender will go out of tune just applying enough hand pressure to fret a chord. Needless to say, the maple neck bender is going up for sale. It's a shame, cause I like the guitar otherwise. This is NOT a Gibson, I might add.

[SwissFrank]

OK, after comparing a Historical Collection 59, a Dot Figured Top, and a Fat Neck at Ishibashi's HQ in Ochanomizu, then again different examples of these three guitars at Ishibashi's biggest store which is in Shibuya, I ended up with the Figured Top, nominally the exact same guitar I owned 2000-2006 and never touched!

 

I found the HC '59 and Fat Neck's necks maybe slightly TOO fat for me. Yesterday's Dot Figured had the bendy-neck syndrome bad: just leaning back drove it sharp. Today's Dot Figured was acceptable, though: it'd do the bendy-neck thing if I was too crazy, but I could move around as much as I need without going sharp/flat. Combined with the price (big discount on that one guitar as they were having problems moving it), the pretty wood (not the best flame I've seen but good enough) swung the deal.

 

Still have buyer's remorse: just a few strums of a G chord told me the second shop's Historical had a little bit more magic. I should have got that. I was turned off probably 40% by the neck being TOO fat, 40% by the sunburst, and only 20% by price. In fact, we need the guitars to SOUND GOOD OVER EVERYTHING ELSE and I let three factors that nobody could hear on a recording make the decision.

[j45nick]

Frank, you gotta buy the guitar that works best for your playing style requirements, but also appeals to you aesthetically. Fortunately, we all have a slightly different way of looking at things.

 

Since I am primarily an acoustic player, the fatter neck of the '59 Historic feels completely natural to me. The very thin neck of my 1968 ES 335-12--undoubtedly a bit bendy--feels like a pencil in comparison, to the point where I feel like my hand just swallows it up.

 

Whatever the neck, the ES 335 is a great guitar. The red one below is my '59 Historic, and the 'burst is the '68 335-12. Radically different from each other, but unmistakably ES 335's.

 

Have fun.

 

[SwissFrank]

Since I am primarily an acoustic player, the fatter neck of the '59 Historic feels completely natural to me. The very thin neck of my 1968 ES 335-12--undoubtedly a bit bendy--feels like a pencil in comparison, to the point where I feel like my hand just swallows it up.

 

Beautiful guitars Nick. I played one of those 12s a couple days ago, much nicer than I expected. I play a fair amount of accoustic (Taylor 855 12, Collings D2H-AV) and they have huge necks but the Historical seemed somehow even bigger.