Could this be a rare Banner J-50?

[bayoubengal1954]

No, I'm not buying another Vintage Gibson. My wild ride in getting the '48 J-50 recently was enough for my poor old heart (and bank account) to take. But I am intrigued by this one:

https://reverb.com/item/2233081-gibson-j-45-1940s-brown?_aid=criteo-ads

 

The seller calls it a "Brown" J-45 from the "late 40s early 50s. Banner logo". I wrote him and told him with the Banner (assuming it's legit) then the years would be '42-'46. I know the pictures make it hard to tell, but I'm wondering if it is a J-45 that was stripped to a Natural and then subjected to to bad refin (I know about bad refins with my '48 J-50 ), or is it a true Banner J-50 subjected to a bad refin and of course the "Custom Stamping". The Banner J-50s are pretty rare, correct?

 

Opinions? The seller is in San Diego if anyone one wants to check it out.

[zombywoof]

Obviously it cannot be a 1950s guitar with a Banner assuming the doodad is legit. I own a 1942 J-50. It was the only year that model came with the Banner. It could also, of course, be a stripped J-45. The bent tab Kluson tuners with the screws (as opposed to rivets) look right. If a '42 J45/50 it should also have a 7-ply rosette.

[madhat]

Says in the description the headstock was repainted.... I know nothing of this stuff- but imagine there was no original banner?

 

madhat.

[bayoubengal1954]

Says in the description the headstock was repainted.... I know nothing of this stuff- but imagine there was no original banner?

 

madhat.

Looking it at, I got the impression that the Gibson part was redone, but the Banner was not. Of course one would have to see it in person!

[zombywoof]

I cannot put the "serial number" in the Reverb ad with a 1942 guitar. There should be an FON followed by a 1 or 2 digit batch number. A three digit FON starting with 4 could be a 1945 J-45 though. But again, there should be a batch number following it. Most of the 1942 guitars will have a 7XXX followed by an "H" (such as mine) or 8XXX FON. A Banner J-50 though is a rare bird as less than 145 of these things were shipped. If the headstock has been refinished than the body may have been mucked around with as well. The easiest way to see if it is a stripped J-45 is too look for overspray and places where traces of the original finish might still be lurking such as along the edge of the fingerboard.

[bayoubengal1954]

Someone in San Diego check this out and report back!

[bayoubengal1954]

I cannot put the "serial number" in the Reverb ad with a 1942 guitar. There should be an FON followed by a 1 or 2 digit batch number. A three digit FON starting with 4 could be a 1945 J-45 though. But again, there should be a batch number following it. Most of the 1942 guitars will have a 7XXX followed by an "H" (such as mine) or 8XXX FON.

 

That doesn't surprise me. I got the feeling the guy did not know much about Gibson acoustics. Not questioning his integrity, just his knowledge.

[OldCowboy]

I'd noticed it before on Reverb. Was wondering the same thing about a poor refin. It bears certain similarities to my '42 J-45, but there may be some differences that I can't determine from the photos. Can't tell if the rosette is right for the year, though it looks wide for a single ring. Also there's the matter of a back stripe which I don't see. When it says that the headstock has been repainted, I don't know if that implies any funny business with the logo and banner.

[Vintage Licks Guitars]

Obviously it cannot be a 1950s guitar with a Banner assuming the doodad is legit. I own a 1942 J-50. It was the only year that model came with the Banner. It could also, of course, be a stripped J-45. The bent tab Kluson tuners with the screws (as opposed to rivets) look right. If a '42 J45/50 it should also have a 7-ply rosette.

 

Actually 46 Banner J50s were manufactured in 1943

98 Banner J50s manufactured in 1942

 

144 total Banner J50s manufactured.

 

All built by women.

[zombywoof]

Actually 46 Banner J50s were manufactured in 1943

98 Banner J50s manufactured in 1942

 

144 total Banner J50s manufactured.

 

All built by women.

 

 

You are correct. I Should have checked JT's book on the production numbers.

[Martin 1940D28]

Doubt very much a "Banner", but no doubt a great sounding guitar.

[tpbiii]

The neck is not from 1942 or 1943 -- you can tell from the location of the tuners compared to the "Gibson." Gibson moved the tuners toward the nut sometime about early 1944. If you look at the guitars in the picture below, the three on the lest were 42/43 -- the three on the right were 44 on. The early ones look like decal is crowded by the tuners. The one in the center is a bit of a mystery -- it is a RW SJ 910-74, the highest index in that famous early 43 batch. The neck looks later -- maybe it was finished later.

 

 

 

Best,

 

 

 

 

-Tom

 

 

 

[bayoubengal1954]

Thanks, Tom! A head scratcher, this one is.

[zombywoof]

Doubt very much a "Banner", but no doubt a great sounding guitar.

 

 

How the heck could you know that?

[OldCowboy]

The neck is not from 1942 or 1943 -- you can tell from the location of the tuners compared to the "Gibson." Gibson moved the tuners toward the nut sometime about early 1944. If you look at the guitars in the picture below, the three on the lest were 42/43 -- the three on the right were 44 on. The early ones look like decal is crowded by the tuners. The one in the center is a bit of a mystery -- it is a RW SJ 910-74, the highest index in that famous early 43 batch. The neck looks later -- maybe it was finished later.

 

 

 

Best,

 

 

 

 

-Tom

Good catch! Knew something wasn't right with the peghead, but couldn't figure out what I was/wasn't seeing.

[bayoubengal1954]

Interesting. So if this is not a Banner some funny business took place when the headstock was "repainted"?

If the rectangular bridge is original (maybe a big "if" considering all other factors) that would put it at no later than '48, since the belly bridges showed up in late '48, correct?