Differences between Epi Dot and Gibson ES-335

[stratman2]

The Epi Dots are a bargain when you look at what you get for you $$. If someone was able to take an Epi 335 dot apart and than dissected a Gibson 335, would the basic woods and construction be similar enough? Or, it there some things that Gibson is doing that makes the tone that much better because of the construction? Of course, disregard pups!

[milod]

Okay... I have two Dots, one new, the other a cupla years old. I think the Gibbie and Epi are more alike in some ways now than what I've read about the Korean-built ones. We're not talking "quality" here, one way or another, but "alike."

 

My main question has to do with quality of the laminates in both. I guess we'll see.

 

The greater degree of handwork on the Gibson should have an overall effect on both "cabinetry" and on resonance/tone and in theory, at least, on the finish. The quality of fingerboards/nuts should in theory be of better material than especially the plastic nut on the Epi. Ditto the neck wood and tuners.

 

Supposedly the pups, pots, switch and wiring in the Dot have been upgraded significantly recently. QC on a few minor issues on recent Chinese models may or may not equal that of any other brand.

 

That said... I firmly believe that the Dot is one of the, if not the best bargain in a semi and guitars in general. I know the modders love to claim this or that ain't at their "standard," but I'm mostly a playability nut, and figure most "tone nuts" are just that - and probably should work more to figure what they have with guitar and amp combination instead of oversalting the steak before they take a bite. A better nut may not be that bad an idea, especially if cut for the strings one is using.

 

m

[mcgruff]

I'd expect a Gibson 335 to be better - but only marginally better than the best Epiphones with good pickups (OK not allowed to mention that). The amount you have to pay for that last 15% or whatever is enormous though.

 

Epiphone really do make some good guitars which are fantastic value. There can be some issues - poorly cut nuts don't seem to be uncommon for example - but the basic guitar is pretty sound.

[Bluemans335]

Considering Gibson 335's are almost 10 times the cost of an Epi, it's hard to beat Dots for value. Dimensions, build, etc are similar on both, but Gibson uses higher quality materials and American workmanship. You decide if that's worth the difference in cost to you. Dots are well-made, reliable guitars. Never saw one that wasn't.

 

I've got several Dots, and upgraded PU's in all of them (which you wouldn't need to do on the new models). Most have maple necks, but I have one in natural with a thick 1950's mahogany neck. I put a pair of Duncan Seth's in it, and it's on a level playing field with a Gibson 335 for tone quality. Why spend more?

[milod]

One other point...

 

The Gibbie has the lacquer, the Epi the poly whatever.

 

There are those who will extol the virtues of either, but mostly the nitro of the Gibbie for what some say is far better for tone than the poly on the Epi.

 

So... I dunno, but it's a selling point, it's a difference and it's a cost factor.

 

I haven't taken the new cherry Dot home from the office to wring it out electrically yet, but I did take a gander at the finish and checked setup-intonation, etc. I could find a cupla tiny finish flaws if I really looked carefully. But... for the price? Sheesh.

 

I showed it to a couple of lady coworkers, one of whom has three guitars for her kids and who has played guitar. They both thought it was the most beautiful thing they'd seen - as in "work of art." I doubt a Gibbie would have brought more of that "Oh, My" response.

 

Me, I'm more concerned about playability and it certainly is.

 

m

[stratman2]

What year are the new EPIs that have good pups? Is this 2012 models? 2013?

 

I have never understood why some guitar companies insist on using 2nd rate pups when there are good, cheap pups available for not much money. I would pay $30 more for good pickups, instead

of buying the guitar and having to throw out the pups and wiring. Even if a company charged $100 more for better pups and wiring and a switch that doesn't soon break, it would be worth spending

$500 rather than $400, for example, and having great pickups and electronics.

 

I don't care about a fancy finish. The tone and playability is what is important. If the basic construction is similar between an Epi Dot and Gibson 335, than I agree it is not necessary

spending many times the price of an EPI. But, if one manages to get the $$$, there is nothing like getting a Gibson and not the clone. The Faded SGs are a bargain on the used market and new, too.

Fender hit a home run with the Squire pine teles that come with good pups, so it is possible to have good pups on a cheap axe. Some of the Mexican Strats have excellent pups.

[milod]

One of mine is 2 years old off the truck and the other new from Sweetwater. I see nothing wrong with the pups for what and how I play in several styles on the older one.

 

Ain't wrung out the brand new one yet.

 

M

[Bluemans335]

What year are the new EPIs that have good pups? Is this 2012 models? 2013?

 

I have never understood why some guitar companies insist on using 2nd rate pups when there are good, cheap pups available for not much money. I would pay $30 more for good pickups, instead

of buying the guitar and having to throw out the pups and wiring. Even if a company charged $100 more for better pups and wiring and a switch that doesn't soon break, it would be worth spending

$500 rather than $400, for example, and having great pickups and electronics.

 

 

Epi's been converting models over to new PU's over since 2010. Not sure when they did that with Dots, but they had the good PU's last year, and possibly a year or two earlier. I totally agree about guitar makers using good quality PU's instead of the cheap generic ones on most imports. They're buying them in bulk quantities and it doesn't cost them that much more to use better ones. They don't have to be American name-brand ones. The current Probuckers, Alnico Classic Pros, and Alnico Classics are all very clear and articulate PU's, with Gibson-spec materials and sophisticated coil windings (the secret art to making great PU's). Cool thing with Epiphone is that they haven't raised prices with the upgrades. I've had many Epi's over the years, and the current proiduction ones are the best quality and best sounding ones I've seen. I wouldn't hesitate to take one from a music store straight to a gig.

[bluscuba]

I've got experience of a Korean riviera and a USA made riviera from 1993. The USA model was made in the Gibson factory as a special run but I assume it was made to similar quality and finish as a Gibson. There is undoubtedly a difference in materials, frets, fret board and the lacquer finish but the main difference are the pickups ( in 97 the epiphone pickups were poor) switch, tuners, nut etc All of these can be upgraded relatively cheaply . I upgraded the Korean riviera and it was a fantastic guitar, the costs were much less than buying a Gibson and to be honest I preferred it to a lot of gibsons. The downside is you probably won't recoup the costs of the upgrades if you sell it.

 

I think if the dot is comfortable and you enjoy playing it, then it's worth getting and upgrading parts if you feel the need.

[wiggy]

I don't know how true it is but I have read in a number of places that, at least up until relatively recently, Epi Dots were actually much closer dimensionally to vintage Gibson 335s than the later Gibson models - particularly in the size and shape of the 'ears' and the curve of the top.

 

A major constructional difference will be the laminate used (thickness of outer and inner plies plus quality/type of the filler ply). An example of this is my Dot Studio where the outer and inner plys (mahogany rather than maple in the case of the Studio) are so thin compared to the inner (filler) ply that the guitar could almost be described as a solid top with inner and outer veneers rather than a true laminate construction.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluemans335]

I upgraded the Korean riviera and it was a fantastic guitar, the costs were much less than buying a Gibson and to be honest I preferred it to a lot of gibsons. The downside is you probably won't recoup the costs of the upgrades if you sell it.

 

You don't lose money upgrades if they're reversible (no drilling or cutting) and you keep all the parts you take off. If you want to sell it, return it to stock condition.

[bluscuba]

You don't lose money upgrades if they're reversible (no drilling or cutting) and you keep all the parts you take off. If you want to sell it, return it to stock condition.

 

That's true, good point

[stratman2]

I was able to compare 335s, 333 with a few Epis. The Epi I preferred was this:

 

http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Archtop/Ultra-339.aspx

 

Super guitar is all ways. That being said, a used 333 is not far off in price from the Ultra-339.

[chipwich]

I've got a 2011 Memphis 335 Dot Reissue, an ES 339, two Midtown Standards, and a late 2011 Epi Ultra 339. I also owned a 2006 Sheraton with electronic upgrades, so I'll do a little comparison of the lot.

 

The fit/finish on the Memphis ES 335, and ES 339 are absolutely flawless. Stunning actually. I bought the 335 new, and haven't touched the setup in two years. Was perfect out of the box. I bought the 339 used, so can't speak to the setup, but everything else is absolutely superb. Concerning the laminated maple, these two instruments feel heavier and more solid than the others, as you would expect them to. The hardware (tuners, switches, pick guard and mounting h/w) is a lot nicer too.

 

My Sheraton, which I will assume is a close brother to the Epi Dot, was finished really well, felt a little lighter than my 335, but with Gibson '57 Classics, and upgraded electronics, really sounded close to the 335. I wouldn't swear that I could tell the difference, but if so, the 335 sounded a light darker.

 

The Gibson 339 sounds a lot different from the Epi Ultra, due to the fact that the Gibson has '57 Classics and the Ultra has Pro Buckers. The ES 339 sounds similar, albeit a little brighter that the ES 335, but the Ultra sounds _much brighter_ almost to the point of being harsh on the top end. But where the Ultra sounds good is running through a tube amp overdriven. Those Pro Buckers really come into their own then.

 

The build quality on the Ultra 339 while very good, is similar to that of the Gibson Midtown Standards, in that if you look hard, you will find some rough finish areas. I only mention these things to put it in perspective, when comparing $800 - $1000 guitars as compared to $2700 guitars. As everyone knows (or thinks they know) Gibson are overpriced to begin with. But as a point of reference, you will not find even the slightest finished-over sanding marks on the Memphis build models as you will with China and Nashville.

 

My point here is that IMO the build quality in the Nashville and China plants is approaching or at similar levels, with the parts and materials being the main difference. That makes sense, because there is a lot of competition in that space and the parent company probably spent considerable effort bringing the two plants up to similar QC levels. So, with that in mind, I would imagine that an Epi Dot would have be built with lower quality wood cuts than a Memphis Dot Reissue, have Epi electronics vs. Gibson, and have a build quality similar to Nashville, but definitely not Memphis.

 

Of course, all of this is an exercise for the colector because Larry Carlton on an Epi Dot can crush all of us on a Gibson 335 :)

[milod]

I think almost anyone can find "something" wrong with the build/finish/soldering on almost any guitar if one reeeeally looks for it.

 

But the new cherry Dot I just picked up some weeks ago is about as nicely done as any I've seen, and I got fairly picky looking at it front and back.

 

I look back at a cupla comments HenryJ made about Gibsons that I think are probably quite correct in that the greater handwork, especially on the necks, will bring tiny variations that may not be perceptible except to a real picker that may make one feel "better" to a given person.

 

I'd guess also that the handwork on a Gibbie would "fill in" some variations in wood that a more mechanized/assembly line process on an Epi might not do - even though that makes a given instrument more "individual" on the Gibbie side compared to an Epi.

 

That said... Yes, I'd love to have had the chance to mess with some 335s before picking up the Dot, but there ain't any stores in less than a day's drive from here with sufficient 335s to compare, and I refuse to spend more than $1,000 on a guitar I ain't had a chance to play. In fact, I actually drew the line around $500 and that may have been too high...

 

Honestly, I'm absolutely convinced that the Dot is the best bang for the buck in electric guitars. Period. There are too many other "great for the money" guitars in today's world to mention, but I'm convinced that the dot pretty much takes the cake. I keep comparing, btw, what we had access to in the early '60s and... young folks today have no idea how good they have it in quality guitar choices.

 

m

[LongMan]

Honestly, I'm absolutely convinced that the Dot is the best bang for the buck in electric guitars. Period.

May I ask if you got the Dot or ES-335 Pro? I fully agree that the Dot is a great value, a colleague of mine got one recently and could not be happier.

 

I love bound necks, in the same color as the body binding if possible. From that point of view the Dot did never cause that full GAS attack with her black fretboard edges. When the ES-335 Pro came out I almost pulled the trigger on it, if only it were available here. Looks great with the creme bound fretboard and the Gibson style pickguard, at almost the same price as the Dot.

 

In the end the Sheraton 50th anniversary became available, and that ended all discussions This one is on par with the standard Gibson ES-335 from my point of view. (The Nashville Custom Shop VOS editions are another cup of tea though).

[milod]

I guess I'm not a bling person. Went through that in the olden days and it didn't make me as happy as when a guitar wanted to be played. I know that sounds just as silly.

 

I've got guitars with and without bound necks and frankly I don't even think about which is which.

 

I'm actually not into cherry color but something... dunno what... drew me. Now that you mention it... I tend to think the cherry may be somewhat more aesthetically pleasing without the bound fingerboard but perhaps a burst or black might do well with a cream neck binding.

 

m

[Bluemans335]

I keep comparing, btw, what we had access to in the early '60s and... young folks today have no idea how good they have it in quality guitar choices.

 

 

+1. The imports from back then were crap. So many were horrible things. What's available now is so much better in every aspect. And they keep getting better.

[bobouz]

It is easy in a thread like this to get the impression that there isn't much difference between an Epi and a Gibson.

 

I've owned quite a few Epiphones including a number of Korean Dots & Sheratons, and currently have some fine Epis, but the only one I've run across (post Kalamazoo era) that holds up to a Gibson in every way is the AIUSA Sheraton (I'd imagine the AISUA Casino would be right there, too). Yes, the Elitists are close as well.

 

But a Gibson semi or hollowbody (if you get a good one) is a different animal, and IMHO it is absolutely worth the extra pennies when factoring in the long term satisfaction it will bring.

 

I would recommend that anyone with a strong interest in the world of hollowbodies should seek out & play as many Gibsons as possible for a point of reference to guide future purchases. There will be some dogs in the bunch, but when you find a gem, it will most likely never leave your mind.

[Bluemans335]

It is easy in a thread like this to get the impression that there isn't much difference between an Epi and a Gibson.

 

There is a difference in materials and workmanship, no denying that. But is that difference worth an additional $2,000 or $3,000 to you? That's why Epiphone exists, and why Epiphone sells far more guitars than Gibson every year. Gibson isn't targeting their guitars for the average player, Epi is. For what Epi's cost, you're getting a very good instrument. If you want a great instrument and have the disposable income, get a Gibson. It's just that simple. Everyone's got to balance the priorities in their life: rent, car payment, wife and kids, medical bills, taxes, insurance, etc. Most people can't justify a high-end guitar, or two, or three.

 

There's a number of national/international touring blues bands that use Korean/Chinese import guitars, especially Epiphones. It's nothing to apologize for. I always take my Epi's to gigs and jams, (after upgrading the PU's), and invaribly get complimenmts on my tones, from the audience and musicians. A few are perplexed, as they don't think Epi's should sound that good, but that's an old prejudice. For a $100/man gig at a local bar, I wouldn't even think of taking a guitar and amp worth $4,000 or $5,000. The acoustics are bad in those places to begin with, and a smoke-filled room with lots of alcohol isn't where I take expensive possessions. Everybody's got to decide for themselves what price range guitars work for their situation.

[milod]

Blue... I think you hit it well... except... I wish I knew where there might be a good old-fashioned smoky saloon to play in. O tempora o mores.

[Stelmo]

I have both an epi dot and a Gibson ES335. 
my epi has a set of bare knuckle stormy Monday's in it and an Emerson wiring harness so it’s not all Epiphone. But the build quality is awesome not a flaw in the finish and it sounds absolutely amazing. It has more of a C shaped neck than the Gibson. The Gibson is heavier and has a D shaped neck. Unplugged the epi seems much more lively and just feels good. Honestly, for 2k more the Gibson isn’t 2k better. My only gripes about the epi is the nut and the headstock in my opinion is ugly. I also had a Collins I-35 and sold it because at $4,200 and my playing the Epiphone more often it didn’t make any sense to keep it. 

[BLOK]

On 1/31/2013 at 7:07 PM, milod said:

Question: is the neck width of the dot the same as the 335? Anyone? Thanks!!!

 

The Gibbie has the lacquer, the Epi the poly whatever.

 

There are those who will extol the virtues of either, but mostly the nitro of the Gibbie for what some say is far better for tone than the poly on the Epi.

 

So... I dunno, but it's a selling point, it's a difference and it's a cost factor.

 

I haven't taken the new cherry Dot home from the office to wring it out electrically yet, but I did take a gander at the finish and checked setup-intonation, etc. I could find a cupla tiny finish flaws if I really looked carefully. But... for the price? Sheesh.

 

I showed it to a couple of lady coworkers, one of whom has three guitars for her kids and who has played guitar. They both thought it was the most beautiful thing they'd seen - as in "work of art." I doubt a Gibbie would have brought more of that "Oh, My" response.

 

Me, I'm more concerned about playability and it certainly is.

 

m

 

[BLOK]

Question: is the neck width of the dot the same as the 335? Anyone? Thanks!!! I have a dot and the neck feels much wider than 335

[stevo58]

Well, I own a Gibson 335. Ok, it’s just a Studio, but it’s a fine guitar. I also in the past owned a Dot. It was also a fine guitar. I sold it a couple months after I bought the Gibson.

The Gibson just feels better. There’s no comparison. The neck feels stable and resonant, while the Dot was dead and flexible. The finish feels better. It hangs better on a strap somehow. There are just countless small details which add up. It’s the first 2-humbucker guitar I’ve been able to bond with. The proper 335s I’ve played are even more extreme.  It’s up to you what you want to pay for. 
 

One concrete difference is the laminations. The Epiphone has five laminations while the Gibson has three. This also means the EPI has twice as many glue layers, and I am convinced - with no evidence at all - more layers of glue = bad. Don’t contradict me; I have no reason to believe it, but I do anyway, so I’ll be resistant to facts.