E-minor7
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Posts posted by E-minor7
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Generalities are probably risky. What we see from our discussions here is that the "rules" about when Gibson (or Martin, for that matter) changed from one characteristic to another almost always seem to have exceptions. Until necks became CNC carved, or at least until relatively sophisticated neck-carving machinery was introduced, you might reasonably expect there to be small variations, and we are pretty much (in most cases) talking about small variances.
Note that most of the new Martins such as the D-28 standard and 000-28 now have 1 3/4" nut widths.
I hate to say but, but at least in the US, people are a lot larger than they used to be. Maybe the wider nut is a reflection of the need to have more room on the fretboard for people.
Yes, but there are overall-patterns and I guess they are what we try to map.
The modern (neck)-machinery arrived at Kalamazoo around 1965 (if I'm not all off). Same year as the width shrinked to 5/8 and 9/16.
They must have been tempted to use the opportunity to copy the increasingly popular electric guitars of the era.
Regarding the reason for widening, I believe Gibson just took the chance and re-introduced the broader width. It is after all easier for most people to handle.
And as it caught on they never looked back (apart from the fact that actually was 'xactly what they did).
And yes, the Martins eventually followed (as mentioned in post #9) - a bit peculiar it took them so long to return. (didn't the Clapton sig. 000-28 start earlier)
Perhaps some sort of conservative pride played a role there - also regarding the audience.
One thing I don't understood never is mentioned in the general nut-width debate is the gender-theme.
Tall vs not tall, fat vs not fat may be a fact, , , but not at all compared to difference between male'n'female hands.
Then again the ladies never complained about their nylon-string guitars, , , , or did they. .
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Martin changed from 1 3/4 to 1 11/16 in late 1939. Those "wide neck" vintage Martins are in great demand.
Thx - so dare we conclude that most brands between the wars had the attractive (plus/minus) 3/4 and that Martin was the first to leave it.
And that Gibson won their round by re-inventing wide width in the mid-80s, , , followed by Nazareth approx 30 years later.
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The original J-45s, the Banners, all had 1 3/4 in. wide nuts. So did the J-45s immediately post-Banner/post-WWII. My knowledge of Gibson ends there. :) But, relatively shortly thereafter, Gibson narrowed the J-45 (and related "J" guitars) to a 1 11/16 nut width.
Do you by coincidence know if the Pre-war Mart. D-28s were wide as well ?
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There entered some qualified supply. Something to work with, Dallon426.
Far from an expert here, but I'll put a few more beads on the string.
My now gone all original 1950 had a heavy neck, but what seemed to be a slightly wider than 11/16 width. (A rough buggar)
The much mellower 1953er w. the old logo on the head-stock is 11/16 for sure - however that one could have been modified looong ago, still not certain.
The 1959er here features an original 5/8 nut.
The dark cherry/purple-burst square 1969'er I met some 8 years ago (uakk, time flies) had 11/16 like my 1968 SJ.
The late 70's square J-45 and J-50 I had both came with 11/16 and very slim necks.
These actually only had the names in common w. their ancestors. (strrrrange times)
Never played more than 1 1968 slope J-50 and though most of these are narrow, I believe it had 11/16 width (else the interest wouldn't have lasted).
A thing like this oldie (including the d-belly bridge) - and btw. not a bad guitar at all. https://www.creamcit...natural-finish/
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Good Q - I'll give it go though some may have more accurate data on the topic.
The 45 originally had fat or rather fat necks with circa 1-11/16 width.
Some narrowed in during the late half of the 50s, but around 1960 things were all out to 11/16 again.
Like the squares - H-bird, CW, SJ, Dove - they shrinked back to 5/8 or 9/16 as 1965 unfolded and stayed there a couple of years.
A few however returned to 11/16 in 1968, but as you might know the model itself changed in 69, goin' square and bulkier inside.
What ! , , , the classic J-45 was now gone and the new versions - some called de Luxe - maintained the 11/16 and then almost vanished as the decade came to an end.
Not until the big rescuing-the-proud-acoustic-Gibson-fleet-mission in the mid-80s,
Bozeman Montana re-invented the fine old slope and in that maneuver introduced the 1-3/4 nut-width.
A very wise move that later would show the way for other brands and become some kind of 'modern standard'
Look forward to hear others chime in. Details might be missing in the story-line above, but in rough it's there.
Dallon426 - what's your situation ?
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I really appreciate the questions and open dialog. It's really nice to have this level of personal communication going on.
Thx again ✓
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I lit a green latern for this post, just saying.
To make sense and avoid confusion, this line was directed toward 2-star staff-member and modifier KSDaddy's
now deleted post about overlooking Guille-ToneRite's intro-comment for a couple of weeks then finally discovering and setting it up.
(first-contributions here must be checked by mods before release)
Hi there @E-minor7
Thank you for sharing your concerns and bringing back the spark to this.
I completely agree with you - our products have been in the eye of the storm almost since the beginning and, honestly, I would partly put the blame on us - and I'll explain this in a second.
This will induce different length vibrational frequencies into the instrument which will specifically tailor the lower-mids and lows of the instrument. This part of the treatment also focuses on the back and sides. unfocused bass can be overpowering and boomy, which translates into muddiness when playing. The ToneRite can tighten up the lows and provide the same amount of intensity but with a much more balanced relation to the upper register. . .
Thx - all worth following with highest attention. Especially the lines about the low-end caught fire.
My poor scientific insight prevents me from understanding the logic behind the Rite almost taming or editing the bass character.
Your pedagogical explanation would be welcome.
Best Thoughts
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I lit a green latern for this post, just saying.
Hey guys - Guille from ToneRite USA here. I figured it would be a good idea to have an open channel to chat and/or answer any questions. I always hated when in forums reps never chimed in so I am going to actually make myself available. But no worries, not trying to sell anything. I meant to be more active in this channel earlier in the year (we love our Gibsons!) but since I took this new position I have had quite some work to do! better late than never.
Thank you all for sharing your comments. We pay special attention to comments and feedback that comes from actual user. 100% of bad comments come from non-users but hey! I respect everyone's point of view and that is the whole point of freedom of speech!!! Nothing but love will come out from our end - we appreciate passionate people in the music community and at the end of the day maybe we can all agree to disagree without the hate.
I will say (and agree) that the ToneRite effects can vary from subtle to unbelievable. This is due to the many factors at play, like type of tonewood, bracing pattern, timber used for such bracing, climate, solid wood vs laminate, etc, etc. But know that in over 90% of the case there is sonic gain to be had from the use of a ToneRite. We have made some key changes this year to our company and Customer service/support is at the top of our list, so if you are curious about what a TOneRite could do for your guitars take our 30 day challenge. No tricks. No questions. if you don't like it simply send it back for a 100% refund. We stand by our products and this is now our way of demonstrating that.
Much love to all and please ask away or share thoughts.
P.S. To those who have bought our products, thank you for your support and for being a valued member of our ToneRite family. Remember you have a 3yr warranty with your device so don't hesitate to reach out for any help.
Warm regards,
Guille
Executive Director - ToneRite USA
Hi - how very intriguing to hear from you.
We've been discussing this device now and again here over the years and every time the tree seems to fall in both directions.
This, that, how, why, because, aha and so forth. A number of tests on the Tube are positive, yes, , , but could the testers be bought, that kind of speculations, u know.
Haven't tried the T-Rite, but was curious from the start.
Why shouldn't it work - it is after all about vibrations and we all know how guitars/instruments can fall asleep when not being used.
Hall's experience with the SJ 'lasting' for a couple of weeks was not less interesting. Did it just go stiffer again.
Will definitely keep an eye on the topic, but fiddle enough to make my acoustics stay awake, , , eehh, sometimes by playing myself to sleep.
Keep vibrating
E-minor7
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Great there - one assume you've played a lot if acoustics and recognize a lucky dart.
Not that easy to find a so called soul mate. Do I understand the set-up was bulls eye too.
You'll dig the burst more and more in the years to come.
Post us a tune and be even 'appier
Congratulations
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Thanks for this insigtful and competent reply. Something tells me the switch to D'Addario was further back - can anyone clarify.
And can you, Red 333, tell us why the 2 sets of factory strings I collected - 2012 and 2015 - have bronze-balls
where the Masterbuilts 80/20 bought in shops and over the web have silver.
For many years, Gibson made its own strings in its own facility in Elgin, Illinoise. That facility was closed five or six years ago. Maybe longer. Time is really flying as I get older!
D'Addario was then contracted to make Gibson strings. The D'Addario-made 12 guage sets have a slightly different make up from the old Gibson sets: the 52 was changed to 53 or vice versa (I would have to look at the packages and I am not at home), which may explain why a newer set sounds slightly different from what one may be used to.
During the change from Gibson/Elgin to D'Addario-made there was a shortage of strings, so Bozeman was using John Pearse and some others to string up new guitars. I believe this situation prompted someone at homecoming to tell Dan Gibson strung guitars with whatever was available. Once supply stabilized, that practice was eliminated to the best of my knowledge, and only Gibson strings are now used.
The Bozeman facility is very small. The guitar is strung up and then put in its case in the same room if memory serves, or in adjacent small rooms at best. Why would they string up the guitar with one brand of strings and then throw their own set in the case? They'd be relying on and managing multiple vendors and using more space and time to do it.
Finally, one poster mentioned Gibson J-200 strings. Gibson J-200 strings (this is the name of the string set) differ from the Masterbuilts by the silk wrap on the ball ends, which is easily seen without removing the strings from the guitar.
I still have a maybe a half dozen unopened Elgin-made Masterbuilt sets, as well as some D'Addario-made sets, and I use them interchangeably. I don't notice a huge difference between them. The D'Addarios are made to Gibson specs and sound it to me.
Sorry for all the typos. I'm on my tiny phone.
Red 333
As mentioned before, the rationale could be to have slightly coated strings on the new 'products' to keep them fresh sounding on the shop walls as long as possible.
And then feature the real honest bronze deal in the case. They are after all more gibsonesq sounding and might be cheaper too.
What do I know - apart from the fact that there is some haze here that no one seems to be able to look through or explain.
Dear Gibson - please just tell us what you do/did (including the different end-rings).
Sincere and loyal regards
E-minor7
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What is with these basement shop idiots who think they can build themselves up by bashing brand names? I've seen rants like these against Rickenbacker as well.
Agree - just no sense of balance there. Some people on the Tube do it with music/albums too.
Reminds me of the old saying, don't know if you English-speakers know it.
Mouse and elephant out walking together cross a wooden bridge. Mouse boldly states : Hey listen how we 2 rumble. .
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Asked this a couple years ago at the homecoming in Bozeman. The Gibson's strings are rebranded, but it is not consistently from the same manufacturer, they change with price, availability and quality, not necessarily in that order. So, may be nearly impossible to duplicate the OPs set without just trying a wide array of strings from a variety of manufacturers.
Aha, , , another layer of fog.
What is meant by the,
"They also looked similar to the Gibson Masterbuilts we like to believe come from the factory", in post #19
is that both the colour (hue of 'gold') and the spezial-zone where the string begins from the ball are the same between the factory-steel and the 80/20's.
And in this case I've A/B/C/D'ed several sets from 2012 to 2017/18.
If anybody is confused, start with checking your Gibson string end-rings. Bronze or silver ? , , , at least that would be a start.
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Today
- after keeping the same strings on my 2012 Hummingbird since Dec. '16 (Masterbuilt Premium Bronze 80/20 lights, they kept sounding better) -
was the day to change steel. Weather was perfectos (slightly autumn grey) so was my mood (neutral).
I therefor fetched the set taken from a 2015 Bird borrowed home from a shop a few years ago. Now was the time to investigate.
Have to say the new, yet not brand new ones as they had been on the 15' Bird hanging in the store, sounded very good from the start.
They also looked similar to the Gibson Masterbuilts we like to believe come from the factory.
But then I thought twice and loosened the low E again. I had missed to check 1 thing = the string-rings, , , or are they called balls. .
And here I found something interesting. The factory strings have bronze-balls - the Masterbuilt Premiums have silver !
Now what does that tell us !?
Immediately checked an extra set of used factory strings I have in my string-collection and yes - they are bronze too.
Don't know what to make of this, but it clearly generates at least 3 Q's :
1 - Does Gibson Masterbuilt Premiums come with different end-rings from time to time ?
2 - What end-rings are on the D'Addario EXP 11's. It has been suggested that these are the actual factory-strings - I wouldn't know.
Think we can count out the J-200's as they are ph. bronze thus darker.
3 - Can we trust Bozeman when they tell us the factory steel is the plain purple packed Masterbuilt Premium 80/20 bronze available everywhere ? , ,
and why shouldn't they - like fx Martin and Taylor - go for something slightly coated to keep the brand new shop-wall-hangers fresh and inviting. .
My inner Sherlock indicates there is a missing link here, , , a fog-factor which we - the innocent audience - can't see or hear through.
Let's clear this up once and for all. All watching Watsons chime in, please !
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Three times I have rattled my pick out of my guitar having let go of it while doing the staccato strum intro to "Things we said today".
The staccato strum - we won't do without it ▲ Things like this connect people world wide. .
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Broken in Doves are stunning guitars and your classic cultivated-wood-leaning-on-natural-ditto shows it so nothing can be misunderstood.
I have one like it and changed the tuners to golden waffle-back tulips last winter.
Be glad you got that one home - including the white tr-cover.
You have majestic acoustic maple there. Look at the top hue along those cherry sides, , , the greenery of the foliage round the calm pigeon. Gibson bliss !
1996 ~
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Time to remember several of J. Taylor's Olsons have cedar on rose. Think this is one of them.
Film from 2015 - guitar from approx 1990 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXj9DcjjWZE
I'm thinking a cedar top J45 would be incredibly warm.
It probably would and it sounds tempting.
Then again we must underline there is a point beyond which things can get too melting mellow (in my ears'n'hands anyway).
But we won't know the 45-version before it's heard. And maybe that experiment was done in Bozeman already.
Hmmm, not sure - Gibson isn't really cedar-minded, is it. .
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Hello to all. I am a retired IT Systems Manager in Northwest Alabama. I have a 1969 Hummingbird I purchased new when I was 19 in 1969. Also still have the original hard shell case. The guitar has aged well and is my go to guitar for vocals.
Hi Hummingman - why not present that Bird in a thread down-stairs. The more pics & sounds the better.
Welcome, , , a bit quiet at the moment, but you will find groovy people here. And all there is to know about acoustic Gibson on the pages behind us.
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I wonder if you could speed the aging process - Overnight in some sort of brine or whatever else might not be great for brass?
Hereby done = 2 brass pins now swim in a bath of saltwater, organic lemon and vinegar-acid.
Will they still exist when I wake up tomorrow. .
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Hallo from Germany.
My name is Marcel and I love music.
Ahaa, , , didn't know that - wonder how many here do.
But stay patient.
Then step right in. .
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Got the 24 and from today have brass-bass in the Dove too.
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Never thought it would happen, , , , or did I.
Was there a clue, , , a tiny spot somewhere inside that knew it should be tried out sooner or later :
The effect of brass pins.
Well, here we are after 3-4 days with them in 3 guitars. Both contemporary Birds and the 2005 Custom Martin D-18. But only for A and low E.
Went back and forth several times and it was hard to judge.
Still it felt as if the bass came on a hair louder thus clearer, , , without losing thump or Gibson character, which of course would have been a no-go.
Not thought with this. Have to experiment further and ordered 4 sets more the day I got the first. The material is simply too otherly not to investigate.
And if it's placebo or the change is almost none, , , , it would be strange too. .
Takes a pair of mind-shades to see b[r]azz-pin E and A shine there on the bridge - but assume time will dampen them down.
That look will actually be rather cühl. .
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Very many thanks to you SirNed for your search & for the important informations you made available to all Hummingbird fans and players. Some people just love the guitars they use to play and that's all; but many players are much interested in the history of the guitar they use to play also and i am one of those: the one who knows nothing about history wouldn't ever be able to understand a faintest thing regarding our present times, that seems quite obvious to me. The Gibson Hummingbird is definetely the Queen of all Guitars to me and i just can't find my words to tell you how much i love my 2017 Gibson HB: To be aware of the history of this beautiful lady matters much to me as well and you did a wonderful job here; thanks also for the picture attached which is relevant and much helpful. Best wishes.
Well spoken ^ every historic detail is gold.
JT did his splendid job on the war-slopes, but the information on the modern classics from 1955 and up to Norlin is sparse.
Even what may seem as banal details are important pieces in the puzzle.
Small questions discussed at the plant, thoughts on pin-material'n'colour, probs with a burst-airbrush technique, cherry-pigment types, new mother of pearl suppliers etc. -
all highly interesting
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SirNed - Excellent new shot as well.
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Em7,
I meant as in "a few 4 pc tops may have trickled out of the big K in 67"
James is an a musical icon of my childhood.
I will never be as gifted in picking as he is ... But will always enjoy his sweet voice.
Yes, perhaps ^
Okay - can't say the same as he was too sweet and edgeless for the young version of me.
Much of his records still are, but I've been lucky to hear him live a couple of time. Nothing short of magnificent.
But how do you regard my thoughts 'bout his original wooden sound and the difference compared to the red roller ?
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Looks entirely possible that 67 was a year for 4 piece tops:
If I may say so this J 45 sounded stellar to my ears!
Could be they found their way that year, but not as a rule. Let's keep our eyes open regarding those 67 tops.
1970 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIo4lEpsPY
And sure, the good looking red 'second' sounds okay - still nothing outstanding if you ask me.
But the first part of the test provides an interesting opportunity to A/B with another slightly older slope.
There one hear how Taylor's also adjustable rosewood saddled third-fret-capoed 1964/65 J-50 really has it.
Not only a lower actioned, but also much looser 'n' soul-full guitar, , , on which he by the way had the bridge fixed - for then never to play it again.
J-45 nut width history?
in Gibson Acoustic
Posted
You are right - and 1.750 is not 1.725. A bit hard to handle for an European centimeter-man. Must fix a few 3/4s in the posts above.
That confessed, I think the 'message' was clear and that we (to the degree it's possible) managed to draw the map.
Let's not forget how much absolutely minor changes matters in that finger-zone.
Btw. still don't know what made Mr. Threadhost ask. .