tpbiii

Probably a 1931 L-1 -- magic guitar.

Tuners are different, but that is not all that odd I think. Thanks for posting! I have not talked to Eldon. The guy I know that provided a lot of pictures for the book and who dealt with Gibson on a reissue from that period was Gary Burnette and the AJ. But I never really talked to him about working with Gibson. Best, -Tom

Well an cosmetic difference is the tuners are in the wrong place for 1942. Only a geek would notice.

Hey, put a picture or two of yours up. As much as these were discussed in the early days, I never got to see how close the were. I think they are adjacent batches -- I don't remember without checking. Let's pick, -Tom

I don't know if people like this our not -- feel free to criticize me and I will stop. The only thing I generally have to add sometimes to discussions like this is I sometimes I have the actual guitars being copied. Just to add color if not substance to the discussion I will put up pictures of some original examples in my basement. In this case, I have a 1938 D-18, a 1934 000-18 long scale (same guitar as a 33 OM-18) as well as various LGs and Ls. In this case I might post the pictures below. Etc. So is this good? Bad? OK? Not OK? I love to talk about guitars -- perhaps too much? I also have over 900 videos in vimeo. I started this system more than a decade ago to provide (potentially if you have the right audio system) faithful reproduction of the sound of vintage instruments. Since then a lot more stuff has found its way in -- jam sessions, songs, and even some shows. However, most of the stuff involves vintage guitars in some way. So here are instructions for finding all the demos for (say) an LG-1. got to www.vimeo.com/tpbiii/videos Search for LG-1 -- you'll get a list like google. Also search for LG1 -- because I was not a consistent as I should have been. I have two LG-1s -- a rare all mahogany LG-1 from 1943; and the guitar of my youth, a 1959 LG-1. If you just searched for LG, you would get all of these plus my 46 LG-2. All the best, -Tom

I have had a 1931 L-2 for quite a long time. This one was found disassembled in a box and covered with a thick goo finish. It was all original except for the finish, and I had it refinished by Randy Wood -- something I rarely did, but for this one it was required. My late wife and I had two "home" genres -- the folk revival first in the 60s and bluegrass later after about 1970. We had a circle of friends in both genres, and even though for the last 40 years we mostly did bluegrass, we also hung out with folk revival friends, and occasional folk circles and even shows -- particularly when were away from "bluegrass country." When we decided to make vintage instruments a retirement investment, we acquired instruments appropriate to both pursuits. My wife had a lovely gentile finger style she developed in the 60s, and a fine "folk" voice. For this she loved responsive, lightly strung 12 fret guitars. For shows she had several late 60s "S" Martins, and she had quite a few 1920-1932 0 and 00 Martins she loved, as well as a 1930 Larson -- all from right around 1930. The L-2 was the only Gibson that was on her short goto list. I have a lot of small 20s and 30s Gibson, but this a dramatic outlier. Most of the others seem to be perfect for blues -- but this one is very sweet. Dare I say Martin-ish. We loved to have accomplished musicians and vintage guitar enthusiasts come visit us and our guitars -- many were bluegrass pickers of course, but others were old folkies. This was/is my social life. They too seemed to love smaller Martins -- but often the one that was picked as the best guitar they had ever played was the 1931 L-2. Here is a video of it being played by a folk music guy -- my late wife even sang a little harmony from the 60s. Let's pick, -Tom

Old Jumbos

I plan to restring the AJ tomorrow so I have a good comparison. Then I will make a fair pairwise comparison with that one and probably the 43 SJ RW too. Here are a couple of old demos of my AJ. https://vimeo.com/385155838 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0i7c1TyKQ4 https://vimeo.com/385155866 Best, -Tom

I can't wait to get into a heavy traditional bluegrass jam with it, but in this case I am very comfortable with my judgement of this guitar's tone for bluegrass. Because I spent my professional career judging the quality of audio (mostly speech) system, I am very aware of how easy it is to fool yourself. Since I am fascinated by tone, I spend a lot of time comparing guitars -- alternately playing them, recording them and doing pairwise comparisons, having other people play them (listen and get opinions), and playing them in sessions. Obviously the last two are not available, but this guitar is such an extraordinary example of what a bluegrass rhythm guitar should be (and I have several other such guitars--it is a disease), I already know it is a truly exceptional guitar. I really already knew that before I bought it because I had an old herringbone with me when I met the guitar in Nashville nearly three months ago. However, usually I have more nuanced opinions about tonal detail, but I am not their yet -- but in terms of it functionality, it is obvious. I'll put up some demos and pairwise comparisons in the next few days. It is nice to have something interesting to do.🙂 Be safe, -Tom

Well in my life, I have wasted a lot of time on such questions. So have a lot of other people. Over the time, a pretty clear picture has emerged. Martin always used BWR, and did so until 1969. Near the end, there was an increasing use of sap wood. Here is a 69 D-35 that illustrates that point very well. Gibson used East Indian Rosewood for backs and sizes from about 1934 until they quit doing RW in 1943. The also use BRW for other stuff -- bridges, fingerboard, etc. This was verified by testing in wood laboratories. In new guitars, I have occasionally gotten to compare two (new) guitars where the only difference was the RW species. IME, they were different and the BRW was best -- but the differences are tiny! IME, age makes a huge difference -- and after you learn what to listen for, it is not hard to identify -- even blindfolded. As a sound scientist, I spent maybe 20 years trying to disprove this -- eventually I gave up. I don't claim to know why -- but old is definitely better. By the early 2000s, I had been playing bluegrass 25 years and I had two wonderful old herringbones, They really are that good for that particular application. and I had quite a lot of fine old Gibsons that were not. Now the Gibsons were/are wonderful for other stuff -- and Vintage Gibsons had the other two bluegrass slots: mandolin and banjo -- but Martin had the guitar slot, and deserved it. In 2001, I sold my sweat equity company, so I could loosen up on my guitar retire investment buying rules. So I bought the 36 AJ from Gruhn. WELL -- MY OH MY. It was what the legend suggested -- at least the equal of the old D-28s for bluegrass rhythm. Not the same -- but it had it own midrange roar that worked every bit as well as the herringbones. And that started the whole process which got me to where I am today -- sort of the keeper of the secret bluegrass Gibson guitars -- with rarer and rarer guitars. Now I am a bit lonely over here -- not too many bluegrass people. They are all over the mandolin, banjo, and Martin guitar sites -- but here not so much. That certainly makes sense historically. And sadly I can't play the J-55 in 4 or 5 jams this week -- no bluegrass jams with social distancing. 🥵🥶 Stay safe, -Tom

Yea, it is tapered -- same as the AJ and the SJ. The only one that isn't is the 35 RSRG. Best, -Tom

If you look at Willi Henkes analysis http://www.bannergibsons.com/registry.html there were a lot of changes in 1943. Before all the data came in from crowd participation in the UMGF and those instruments could be correlated, a lot of those guitars were dated as 1942. The guitar on the left is RW 910-74, and it has a modest neck profile and a truss rod. By no means is that neck type even typical of the batch, where many guitars -- like the one on the right -- had baseball necks with no truss rods. Here is a picture of all three of my 1943 banners -- two have no truss rods. Gary Burnette's AJ IMO really is a prototype. That claim is made too often IMO, but in the case of that guitar I think it is warranted. I have an early production batch AJ, which looks quite different than Gary's AJ. Mine looks like all the other early AJs, but it has three tone bars! Huh. Like J45fan says, the only thing consistent about Gibson was its inconsistency.😎😎 Best, -Tom

This is probably one of those -- Gary Burnette had it at one time. It is the one pictured in the Fabulous Flat Top book -- the picture is from Gary. It has the smallest braces I have ever seen. As a bluegrass player, my early years were dominated by old Martin D-28s. The primary unique property of old D-28s that help then define traditional bluegrass rhythm -- and make them sort of the king of vintage flat tops -- was their overpowering midrange roar that filled the backbeat in the BG rhythm. Gary Burnette figured out the AJ -- although a different guitar for sure -- did have a roaring midrange that was every bit as good as the herringbones for bluegrass. But they were too rare to catch on. Well it turns out IME -- at least for the examples I own -- that can be said of all four of the golden era RW Js. The RSRG only had 12 frets and it had to be converted, while the RW SJs and certainly the RW J-55 were essentially unknown. So history might have been different, but it wasn't. And isn't. Best, --Tom

Here it is with its RW sisters. I'll do some recording tomorrow. 35 RSRG, 36 AJ, 40 J-55, 43 SJ Tomorrow I will post some videos -- like the others, it has truly extraordinary power. I knew that of course, but it is nice to know did not miss judge it. AFAIK, this is all the slope rw jumbos models-- they stopped making the last RW SJ in 1943. Of course a couple of months ago, I did not know about RW J-55s -- with Gibson, you truly never know.😎 Let's pick, -Tom

These are both 43.

Suggested reading https://vintageacousticinsruments.blogspot.com/

Including the one above, I now have the credible reports of two more. It turns out, one is reported on page 53 of the Fabulous Flat Top book (c. 1993). Here it is. A close examination of this pictures show that it actually is the same guitar that I have acquired. Funny world huh? Best, -Tom

I can't speak very well to the models after about 1955, but I have paid a lot of attention to one I have and to many others I have auditioned. IME, in terms of basic materials and structure, the two models were basically identical except for decorations from mid 1943 to 1955. Now Nick makes the most important point -- just because the guitars were manufactured identically does not mean they sound the same -- there are always audible differences, but still there are overall properties that apply and evolve. In that regard, however, there is a definite evolution in tone properties over time. There are reasons for this -- materials and structural properties evolved -- but the SJs and J-45s evolved together. The general evolution since 1943 has been to physically stronger instruments resulting in a reduction in acoustic power -- but not too much. There are three J-45s and three SJs in this picture -- SJ: 43, 43, 54 and J-45: 43, 44, 53. One SJ is RW -- the first batches were, but that stopped in 1943. All of these are demoed here. Best, -Tom

Thanks so much for your post!! I figured there would be more. Have you seen any others? All the best, -Tom

I am sure he will -- we have a session planned as soon as the pandemic allows. Maybe a word about tone is in order here. I remember some years ago when I acquired my last early Gibson RW J -- the 43 SJ RW -- I thought it's tone was extraordinary and you passed on the instrument because you did not love its tone. That may seem odd -- but it is not odd at all. I have several different set of rules for measuring different kinds of guitars. The reason for this is because I am only interested in owning guitars I plan to play -- at least sometimes for something. I have musical bias based on my own musical aspirations and limitations, the genres I love, the songs I know and aspire to, and places I play, and the people I play with. The bias I applied to this guitar is a well known and historically important bias, and it is reason that for many, the prewar Martin D-28 is the best flattop ever built. That is because of that instrument's role is/was so important in the very popular (but by no means universal) bluegrass genre. What a guitar must have for that genre is a lot of power, a strong low end and (most important) an outsized midrange with a rosewood roar. Such a guitar is perfect at filling the back beat in bluegrass rhythm to provide the on-the-beat driving backup that defines the genre. That is the measure that I used in evaluating the new J-55 and that is the measure by which I found it to excel. But that bias is by no means the only tone bias that I use. Like you I think, my late wife and I were also children of the 60s folk revival -- my first love. For me, things like the old herringbones do not work all that well in my folk music life. For that, I found instruments like my banner J-45 (finger style) and 62 Hummingbird (strumming) to be perfect. Also, there is/was a power issue -- while we often struggled to be loud enough to blend in bluegrass, the response in a folk circle was often "why are they screaming and beating on those instruments?" And their are quite a few more set of tone rules. I also love to play bare finger couch music and also blues -- mostly only at home. That leads to 20s Martin 0 and 00 and to Gibson 20s L-1, and 30s L-00 and HG-00. And so on. So when this thing arrives, I will flat pick it, finger pick it, play fiddle tunes and folk tunes on it, and sing with it. But I will not use for its true intended purpose -- their is no more bluegrass until the pandemic is past. 😥😥 All the best, -Tom

Soo... I no longer buy old guitars. I know longer buy old guitars. I ... But in the first decade of the 21th century -- at the twilight of my guitar acquisition period -- I became interested in Gibson's RW Js from the mid 30s to the early 40s. They were rare instruments -- RSRGs and AJs were all that seemed to be known in the 20th century. Later the really early (42-43) SJ RWs were documented and ultimately I acquired all three. And I proved (to myself but everyone who plays them agrees) that they were at least a good as the prewar herringbones when it comes to bluegrass rhythm. Since I love to play rhythm in bluegrass bands, this is important to me (and indeed many others as well.) Old D-28s now go for up to $150K. I wrote all this up for my blog about 5 years ago. https://vintageacousticinsruments.blogspot.com/ I thought I was done -- I mean I had all three. Well, (as you may know) starting in 1940 Gibson replaced the AJ with the J-55 -- a mahogany J that only lasted a couple of years (about 400 guitars). I was not really interested in a J-55 because it seemed to me it was too close in time and design to the early (mahogany) banner SJ and banner J-45 I already had. And J-55s were rare -- so rare that they are not even noted in the Vintage Guitar Price Guide. But then I went to SPBGMA (early Feb this year) and found a 1940 J-55 on display. Not just any J-55 but a RW J-55. HUH! THERE IS NO SUCH THING! But there it was. Well that might be another of the rare group of early Gibson RW Js that I have come to admire so much for their power and tone -- an essentially (maybe totally) undocumented model. Quite possibly the only one. Well I had my 44 D-28 with me for jamming purposes, so I did not have to imagine how they compared. Like the others, it is clearly in the same class as the prewar herringbones -- like the AJs Gary Burnette dubbed "bone crushers." So eventually a deal was made and it will be here in a week or two. Of course, I cannot take it out and play bluegrass -- I have not left my house in 4 weeks. So I guess I will have to be satisfied with pealing the paint off the walls for awhile.😀 Also, J-55 are kind of goofy looking -- some even had a mustache bridge. Mine doesn't -- but the other bridge is also sort of goofy. Let's pick, -Tom

As I vintage Gibson collector (curmudgeon?), (two early 43 SJs (one RW) and an early 43 J-45; 36 AJ; 35 Jumbo; 36 Trojan/J-35; 35 RSRG; 36 RSRD), I am often in a position to compare these new models to the old. To me it is interesting -- not good or bad. First, for many years the model was the Southerner Jumbo -- not the Southern Jumbo. Also, only three SJs have been identified from 1942 -- two RW and one RW/mahogany combination, all with white logos and not banner logos. I know no one really cares, but it keeps me a amused. What else is there to do in isolation. Be safe guys, -Tom

Thank you all for your responses! Let's pick, -Tom

So ...... Like many of you I guess, I have been stuck in the house for a couple of weeks and it looks like it will be at least a month more. I am not a guitar player. I am not a performer. I am not a singer. I am not a recording artist. I am a jammer!! A jammer locked up with 200+ of the best vintage instruments ever built -- and no one to play with! So what to do. Well to advance my jamming life, I know many people I would like to work out keys and harmony with -- preparing for the day when we can once again mix singers, voices, and instruments to make spontaneous music. Well many of you know I have an acoustic recording setup that is designed to give a faithful recording of a single vintage guitar, but it also does video and has a green screenas well. So all I have to do to record is sit down and play. So I had an idea -- why not make some really basic off-the-cuff recordings of some good songs, and then engage singers from my distributed and trapped social circle to do some harmony. Figuring our keys and harmonies with friends is the bread and butter of a jammer's life -- time to make some progress. So here is my first experiment. The harmony singer is Dr. Kelly Moore -- a band mate of my daughter's (DEAD GIRL SONGS). I used my favorite studio rhythm guitar for the project -- 1962 Hummingbird. I just made three recordings of the song WEST VA GIRL in A, Bb, and B. The recordings were as plain as they could be -- rhythm only, no practice and just one take. That is necessary if eventually I want to do a bunch of these. Then they went up on vimeo and youtube, and Kelly just put on headphones and recorded the harmony track on her phone. Then she sent me the track and I merged it into the video. REALLY, REALLY simple! So you guys can help me out. Tell me which of these keys you like best. So what do you think? Best, -Tom