Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Hello! I'm looking at a secondhand Epiphone Dot Deluxe. Based on the serial number it was made in Korea in 2002 and I'm wondering what kind of humbucker pickups it has. Someone told me they might be "burstbuckers", but I don't know. I'm pretty sure they're stock though. Does anyone know exactly what type of pickups were put in these? They do sound good and the guitar has a very nice vintage sunburst finish so I will probably get it in any case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Welcome to the Forum ! I know you're NOT knocking the Epi p'ups and actually said they sound quite good, which is refreshing because there's been endless "stock p'up bashing" around here thru the years. I have 6 Epis of which 5 still have the stock p'ups..one's a '62/50 Sheraton w/Gibson minis so it doesn't really count for this subject. The only one i've swapped p'ups in is a '56 GoldTop LP because I wanted some form of humbuckers in it. they do require a bit more work to set your amp for "that" tone, but Epi p'ups are all pretty much servicable and fit to play/record with. I almost picked a Dot Deluxe when I scored my '08 Sheraton II...but it just didn't ring out as well acoustically...I still plan to get one someday, the Dot Dlx's are some really fine guitars!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I've got an '02 Dot Deluxe (I think it was built in the Saen factory). I'm not sure of the exact model of pickups but they were the original "designed by Gibson" Alnico humbuckers that these guitars were shipped with for awhile. Opinions vary on these pups, but you know what they say about opinions...If adjusted properly (i.e. - not too close to the strings) they sound great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Epi p'ups are all pretty much servicable Yes, 'serviceable', as in they produce an electrical signal. As far as tone, not so good unless you use a lots of distortion and effects. In the past three years Epi's been on a PU upgrade program, and they sound much better now. Prior to that, they used the cheap generic Asian HB's that were the source of many complaints, 'mudbuckers' being a popular nickname. They were never intended to produce quality tones or compete with high-quality PU's, not at that pricepoint. They were the guitar's weakest link and that's why Epi's invested a lot of money into their current PU upgrade program and the marketing behind it. They wouldn't have done all that if the old ones were 'fine.' Once you have some good quality PU's, especially American-made ones, you'll hear much more clarity, definition, and depth. Not only are there better materials, but there's an art to winding the coils (patterns and tension), which is not employed in cheap PU's. It's worth it to upgrade, and if cost is an issue, buy them used on eBay, often for around half price. I upgraded the PU's in my Dot, Dot Deluxe, Dot Royale, and Sheraton. They all sound significantly better. The biggest thing you can do to improve a mid-price import's sound is to upgrade the stock PU's; it does more than everything else put together. Stock 'Burstbuckers' in a 2002 Epi? Don't take any more guitar advice from that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 In the past three years Epi's been on a PU upgrade program, and they sound much better now. Prior to that, they used the cheap generic Asian HB's that were the source of many complaints, 'mudbuckers' being a popular nickname. Thanks to everyone for the replies. Can you say more about the pickup upgrade program? Do the new Dots come with better pickups than the 2002 Korean model I've been looking at? I ask because buying a new one would only cost a little more so I can go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I have a Dot Deluxe and have owned 3 Dots. The Deluxe sounds much better than the Dot because of the pickups. It is like a fusion between a Dot and a Sheraton... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgruff Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Would a 2002 guitar be using the 57CH(G) humbuckers? I had these in my own second-hand dot. Yuk. You had to use some pretty savage EQ to carve out the low-mid hump. A lot of that is down to the materials eg brass baseplates are probably one of the main factors in their muddy sound. I took up pickup-winding in the search for a better tone and even my first efforts were a huge improvement. Any of the modern Epi pickups with "pro" in the name should be much better. Or wind your own... It's not that hard and it gives you the opportunity to design the perfect set of pickups for your own guitar and musical style. For example, versatility is important for me so I've set my dot up with Jimmy Page wiring and now I'm experimenting with low-output humbuckers which split well for the single coil tones (often weak with a low-output 'bucker so you put a tap in one coil and then split to one full coil + tap to fill it out a bit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Any of the modern Epi pickups with "pro" in the name should be much better. I've checked the new Dots on a couple of sites and they only state "dual humbucking pickups". From the Epi website: "Neck Pickup Alnico Classic Humbucker" "Bridge Pickup Alnico Classic Plus Humbucker" Doesn't tell us much. Or wind your own... It's not that hard and it gives you the opportunity to design the perfect set of pickups for your own guitar and musical style. For example, versatility is important for me so I've set my dot up with Jimmy Page wiring and now I'm experimenting with low-output humbuckers which split well for the single coil tones (often weak with a low-output 'bucker so you put a tap in one coil and then split to one full coil + tap to fill it out a bit). Wind my own? Dude, cut me some slack :) Ok, if you can point me at a Youtube tutorial I'll give it a look. By the way I've tried a few guitars with the coil splitting feature and I can't say I've been impressed. I've owned classic single coil Strats and I don't really like those either. I guess it's not a tone I care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 What about a 62 Reissue Sheraton? Bit more expensive but worth the upgrades. I've honestly never had a problem with Dots or Dot Deluxes so I thin you'd be happy with either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 What about a 62 Reissue Sheraton? Bit more expensive but worth the upgrades. I've honestly never had a problem with Dots or Dot Deluxes so I thin you'd be happy with either... The Sheraton looks nice, but as far as I can tell it's mostly about "finish", eg neck inlays, bindings. There's no indication that the "electrics" are different/better. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 The Sheraton looks nice, but as far as I can tell it's mostly about "finish", eg neck inlays, bindings. There's no indication that the "electrics" are different/better. Am I missing something? "The Sheraton's electronics feature CTS potentiometers, Epiphone's non-rotating ¼" output jack, Top Hat knobs with metal inserts, and Gibson USA mini-humbuckers for superior sound." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 "The Sheraton's electronics feature CTS potentiometers, Epiphone's non-rotating ¼" output jack, Top Hat knobs with metal inserts, and Gibson USA mini-humbuckers for superior sound." Can you post a link? There are a number of Sheraton variations and I can't find one that states mini-humbuckers. Is the 62 reissue still available new? I'm only seeing used ones on guitarcenter.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Should still be available new. They only came out last year http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Archtop/1962-50th-Anniversary-Sheraton.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Should still be available new. They only came out last year http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Archtop/1962-50th-Anniversary-Sheraton.aspx OK, I found it on Sweetwater.com http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ETC2VSGH3 Looks lovely, but out of my price range unfortunately. If I go "new" I'm probably looking at the Epi ES-335 Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgruff Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Wind my own? Dude, cut me some slack :) Ok, if you can point me at a Youtube tutorial I'll give it a look. The first thing is to read up about the variables which affect pickup sound. The main one is the number of turns of wire. A classic humbucker has about 5,000 per coil with a small difference between each coil. Adding more turns gives you a hotter output but also a darker-sounding pickup. Any kind of Alnico II, III, IV or V have been used in humbuckers. Try them all with the finished coils and choose the one that works best. Covers and potting tend to smooth things out. Leaving them uncovered and unpotted can give you more character. Really, all you need to do is get some decent-quality parts, including some single-coated 42awg wire, and then decide how many turns of wire you want to set the desired balance of brightness/output. If you're using a tube amp (as you should!) hotter pickups will push the preamp stage harder but maybe won't sound so good for clean tones. Personally, I try to design for good clean tones and use clean boost / EQ if I want to hit the amp hard. If you stay mainly in the overdrive zone you'd probably prefer something hotter. The actual winding is easy. I've adapted an old sewing machine (stick pickup bobbins on the end with double-sided tape) and use a cycle computer as a turns counter. It's very easy to break magnet wire but after a couple of coils you'll get the feel of it. The way to approach this is as an experiment. Don't expect to get the perfect pickup first time. It won't take too long though. If it's a bit too dark rip the coils up and wind them again with fewer turns. Or vice versa. Magnet wire is cheap. For advice on pickup winding, try here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 " As far as tone, not so good unless you use a lots of distortion and effects." Really? I think that's probably the first time I've heard that... I've always considered distortion somewhat of a tone killer depending on the type of course (obviously fuzz is worse than distortion, is worse than overdrive...tube vs. transistor etc.). "Effects" can also be tone killers depending on what type you're talking about (and the quality of the circuit), but generally speaking, guitar > wire straight into the amp is going to give you your "best" tone. In addition, "tone" and "best tone" is a highly subjective topic and seems to change as often as the weather and from person to person. In other words, play the guitar, make sure the pickups are adjusted properly and decide whether you like the tone or not. Take all the opinions on the internet with a grain of salt - including mine. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 In addition, "tone" and "best tone" is a highly subjective topic and seems to change as often as the weather and from person to person. In other words, play the guitar, make sure the pickups are adjusted properly and decide whether you like the tone or not. Take all the opinions on the internet with a grain of salt - including mine. Good Luck Agreed - you can only get so far with specs and opinions, and then you have to lay on hands I'm going to play that used Dot again along side an ES335 or ES339 with the "Probuckers" this week and hopefully learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Agreed - you can only get so far with specs and opinions, and then you have to lay on hands I'm going to play that used Dot again along side an ES335 or ES339 with the "Probuckers" this week and hopefully learn something. The Dot Deluxe is a pretty good guitar for the money if you like the gold hardware and flamed top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 " As far as tone, not so good unless you use a lots of distortion and effects." Really? I think that's probably the first time I've heard that... I've always considered distortion somewhat of a tone killer depending on the type of course (obviously fuzz is worse than distortion, is worse than overdrive...tube vs. transistor etc.). "Effects" can also be tone killers depending on what type you're talking about (and the quality of the circuit), but generally speaking, guitar > wire straight into the amp is going to give you your "best" tone. Agreed, too much distortion and effects can be tone killers, and annoying to listen to. What I was referring to is that if you pile those on, it's hard to hear what cheap PU's really sound like underneath all that. The true test of a PU is to play it clean thru a good amp. Then you can hear what you really have, and the old Epi PU's don't fare well under those conditions, nor were they intended to, hence the improved PU's on current models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 OK, I found it on Sweetwater.com http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ETC2VSGH3 Looks lovely, but out of my price range unfortunately. If I go "new" I'm probably looking at the Epi ES-335 Pro. +1. Mini-humbuckers never caught on, as they're pretty bright and thin, and I wouldn't want a Sheraton with them. I'd go with a 335 Pro myself. Dot Deluxes are nice guitars, except they have the old, cheap PU's, which many guys replace. I've been on the Duncan forum for many years, and the guitars that players upgrade PU's on most often are Epiphones. The PU's have held them back from reaching their potential. That's changing with the new PU program Epi's implemented. Epi's introduced dozens of great new models and limited editions in the last decade, unfortunately most of them 'didn't get in under the wire' to get upgraded PU's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Any kind of Alnico II, III, IV or V have been used in humbuckers. Lots going on with magnets. A8's have been catching on the last few years, for players that want bridge PU's with warmth, high output, and a tight low end. Unoriented A5's (UOA5) are gaining popularity, as they're a combination of the best qualities of A2's and A5's. Roughcast A2, A3, A4, and A5 are also being used more often. In the USA, Addiction FX carries all of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Once you have some good quality PU's, especially American-made ones, you'll hear much more clarity, definition, and depth. Not only are there better materials, but there's an art to winding the coils (patterns and tension), which is not employed in cheap PU's. It's worth it to upgrade, and if cost is an issue, buy them used on eBay, often for around half price. I upgraded the PU's in my Dot, Dot Deluxe, Dot Royale, and Sheraton. They all sound significantly better. The biggest thing you can do to improve a mid-price import's sound is to upgrade the stock PU's; it does more than everything else put together. Stock 'Burstbuckers' in a 2002 Epi? Don't take any more guitar advice from that guy. i've had "good quality American p'ups" since '81 and while I agree that Asian stock p'ups aren't "earvana" i'll add the qualifier that many of the overpriced "American" (assembled) p'ups ain't all that either. I stopped using gizmo pedals around '85, but i've just not found that many p'ups that can't be amped to sound decent/good....Asian, Mexican, or American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I stopped using gizmo pedals around '85, but i've just not found that many p'ups that can't be amped to sound decent/good....Asian, Mexican, or American. Pedals have changed a lot since 1985, the selection and what they do is very different now. Like night and day. Most humbuckers can be made to sound good with either a magnet or pot change. There's about ten kinds of alnico magnets readily available now, and there's no reason to assume that the one that comes stock in a PU is going to be the best one for your guitar, wood, and amp. You can change many aspects of a PU with different magnets: EQ, output, texture, dynamics, low end firmness or looseness, etc. Every piece of wood is different, due to countless variations in grain, density, mineral content, water content, etc. Two pieces of lumber cut from the same tree can have very different tonal qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victek Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 I have 6 Epis of which 5 still have the stock p'ups..one's a '62/50 Sheraton w/Gibson minis so it doesn't really count for this subject. The only one i've swapped p'ups in is a '56 GoldTop LP because I wanted some form of humbuckers in it. they do require a bit more work to set your amp for "that" tone, but Epi p'ups are all pretty much servicable and fit to play/record with. The Dot Dlx's are some really fine guitars!! I went back and played the used Dot again alongside a new Dot and a new Epi ES339 (both had the new pickups) and I couldn't hear a whole lot of difference, so I decided to take it. When I got it home I played it through my Vox practice amp and also my Frontman 212R. Strangely it really didn't sound good through the Vox, but it sounded great in the Fender. That's a bit of a mystery. My PRS SE sounds OK through the Vox so I wonder why the Dot doesn't? Anyway I cleaned up the Dot and restrung it, and it plays like a dream. The tech at GC adjusted the truss rod and the neck is nice and straight. Thanks to everyone who helped me think through my choices. I may still upgrade the hardware down the road, but as is the guitar is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I went back and played the used Dot again alongside a new Dot and a new Epi ES339 (both had the new pickups) and I couldn't hear a whole lot of difference, so I decided to take it. When I got it home I played it through my Vox practice amp and also my Frontman 212R. Strangely it really didn't sound good through the Vox, but it sounded great in the Fender. That's a bit of a mystery. My PRS SE sounds OK through the Vox so I wonder why the Dot doesn't? Anyway I cleaned up the Dot and restrung it, and it plays like a dream. The tech at GC adjusted the truss rod and the neck is nice and straight. Thanks to everyone who helped me think through my choices. I may still upgrade the hardware down the road, but as is the guitar is great Pretty guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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