355 Staying In Tune

[355Pulse]

I'm having an awful lot of trouble keeping my brand new Memphis ES-355 (with Bigsby) in tune, particularly the G and B strings when bending strings and using the Bigsby.

 

This is my first "new" Gibson guitar but I've been playing for over 30 years, including so called other lower end guitars fitted with Bigsby tremolos (Gretsch) and have never had such a huge problem as I'm experiencing now. I've tried graphite in the bone nut slots and saddles, changed and stretched 0.10 strings etc - all of which is second nature to me anyway. To be fair I haven't taken it to a pro luthier as yet as I've always done my own set-up. If I press down on the G or B strings behind the nut they go sharp straight away indicating to me a nut issue with the strings not returning to zero.

 

This has been my dream guitar for as long as I can remember and I've finally got one and I love it apart from the tuning issue. I want to use it as my main live guitar but it's proving very troublesome to the point I can't rely on it staying in tune throughout one song.

 

Any advice from anyone suffering a similar fate would be much appreciated.

[stein]

Sounds like you have found the problem already, at least ONE problem.

 

Yea, if you press the string behind the nut and it goes out of tune without returning to pitch, that's a sure indication the nut is binding the strings.

 

For that, you either need a luthier, or even a "tech", or get the right files/tools to do it yourself.

 

The saws and files you would want are kinda spendy, but you could try a little sandpaper folded up to try and smooth them out a little. It takes some practice to get them really good, but keep in mind if you do take it on yourself, you might be finding someone to replace it anyway (which ain't the end of the world).

[355Pulse]

Many thanks for the feedback, I am leaning towards taking it to a luthier or tech to do as you suggest. The strings don't "ping" either so it does suggest the nut and not saddle is, as you say, at least ONE problem. A few people seem to have had this with the PLEK nuts. Changing the nut isn't out of the question either as there's no point me keeping this guitar as a trophy in original state - I'm a musician and I want to use this beauty as much as possible.

 

I've heard people say locking tuners are the way but I've never needed to use them before and don't want to change them particularly from the Grover 18:1 ratio tuners that come as standard.

 

If I can get her to stay in tune, I am truly in paradise with this guitar!

 

Thanks again for responding.

[Pin]

I'm not keen on Bigsby's or any tremolo but then that's me and not you. It definitely sounds like a nut issue to me.

 

A roller bridge might also help but I reckon a fettled nut (or a new decently cut one) will see to your problem.

[355Pulse]

I'm not keen on Bigsby's or any tremolo but then that's me and not you. It definitely sounds like a nut issue to me.

 

A roller bridge might also help but I reckon a fettled nut (or a new decently cut one) will see to your problem.

 

Agreed about the nut. Tremolos are an acquired taste and I've been using Bigsby's on solid body and semi-acoustic guitars for a long time without needing to do much apart from putting graphite in the nut slots and giving the strings a good old stretch.

 

I have to say it's disappointing that Gibson don't get the nut right considering the 355 cost and it's the luxury model - I've seen many others complaining of the same thing on other models such as the SG and LP also, with and without Bigsby. I haven't had this problem on other guitars I own with licensed Bigsby's that cost considerably less and that don't have bone nuts like my 355. I guess it's the nature of the beast and once I get it sorted there's no doubt the 355 is in a different league compared to anything else I've ever played.

[Pin]

Agreed about the nut. Tremolos are an acquired taste and I've been using Bigsby's on solid body and semi-acoustic guitars for a long time without needing to do much apart from putting graphite in the nut slots and giving the strings a good old stretch.

 

I have to say it's disappointing that Gibson don't get the nut right considering the 355 cost and it's the luxury model - I've seen many others complaining of the same thing on other models such as the SG and LP also, with and without Bigsby. I haven't had this problem on other guitars I own with licensed Bigsby's that cost considerably less and that don't have bone nuts like my 355. I guess it's the nature of the beast and once I get it sorted there's no doubt the 355 is in a different league compared to anything else I've ever played.

 

 

Well, keep us posted on developments and post a pic of the 355 if you can!

[355Pulse]

This is the moment I opened the case for the first time!

 

The pic doesn't do it justice but you can get the idea ;-)

[powerwagonjohn]

I put a Schaller roller bridge on my ES-345 when I installed a Bigsby and it works great. I did have the nut replaced with a bone nut by my tech soon after I bought the guitar. The Schaller bridge fit directly on the posts so no modifications to the guitar.

thanks john

[Jayyj]

I have a few guitars with Bigsbys, including a 355. I find they work best with a reasonable amount of string tension - remember they were designed at a time where heavy strings and wound thirds were the norm. 10-52s work great on my guitars and the Bigsby responds beautifully with them.

 

That said, whenever I've come across a Bigsby equipped guitar that really didn't want to stay in tune, the nut is the culprit 99% of the time and a tech will easily be able to remedy that for you. The Gibson headstock is a little prone to string binding, there being quite a steep break angle angle over the nut, and lubricants such as graphite and nut sauce that are applied to the nut slot are worth trying as well.

 

If you look at the bridge of your guitar side on and depress the Bigsby arm,you should see the bridge lean forward slightly with the movement. This is by design and it means you don't really need a roller bridge for the unit to work properly. I did try Graphtech saddles in my 355 to improve the tuning stability and left them in as it didn't do the guitar any harm, but I didn't really notice any improvement - when I upped the string gauge and enlarged the nut slots the tuning settled down perfectly.

[355Pulse]

I put a Schaller roller bridge on my ES-345 when I installed a Bigsby and it works great. I did have the nut replaced with a bone nut by my tech soon after I bought the guitar. The Schaller bridge fit directly on the posts so no modifications to the guitar.

thanks john

 

Thanks for the response John. My 355 has a bone nut as standard but the feeling I have is that the slots aren't big enough and it's causing the strings to bind so I'm going to try that first.

[355Pulse]

I have a few guitars with Bigsbys, including a 355. I find they work best with a reasonable amount of string tension - remember they were designed at a time where heavy strings and wound thirds were the norm. 10-52s work great on my guitars and the Bigsby responds beautifully with them.

 

That said, whenever I've come across a Bigsby equipped guitar that really didn't want to stay in tune, the nut is the culprit 99% of the time and a tech will easily be able to remedy that for you. The Gibson headstock is a little prone to string binding, there being quite a steep break angle angle over the nut, and lubricants such as graphite and nut sauce that are applied to the nut slot are worth trying as well.

 

If you look at the bridge of your guitar side on and depress the Bigsby arm,you should see the bridge lean forward slightly with the movement. This is by design and it means you don't really need a roller bridge for the unit to work properly. I did try Graphtech saddles in my 355 to improve the tuning stability and left them in as it didn't do the guitar any harm, but I didn't really notice any improvement - when I upped the string gauge and enlarged the nut slots the tuning settled down perfectly.

 

The Memphis 355 nut is PLEK cut to use gauge 10-46s (according to specs from Gibson) which is my preferred string gauge as it happens. I believe that the standard 335 nut is cut for gauge 11 which are a little too heavy for my liking. I have other guitars with Bigsbys and like you I use either 10-46s or 10-52's all the time and they are excellent.

 

The trouble with the 355 does seem to come from the nut and it's interesting to hear that your experience backs this up and yes definitely the break angle over the nut adds to the issue. I have lubricated the slots generously with graphite and it has improved a little.

 

Interesting also you mention the roller bridge. I have two Gretsch guitars both with Bigsby, one which I upgraded to have a roller bridge and one I did not. I have to say it didn't make any noticeable difference although I don't have any tuning issues with either of these guitars. The one without the roller bridge leans forwards exactly as you say as does the bridge on the 355.

 

I am definitely going to get the nut slots widened and see if, as suspected, this resolves the problem.

 

Many thanks for your response :)

[powerwagonjohn]

You don't need to change the nut, I had it done to even out the string spacing. Usually just open up the slots and lubricate them and you should have no problem. Gibsons tend to have these tight nut problems but too tight is better than too lose as it is an easy fix to open up the slots. The bridge on my ES-345 did not move back and forth but then it didn't come with the Bigsby from the factory. I installed the Bigsby using a Vibramate which set the string angle perfectly at the bridge. Another thing I like about the Schaller bridge is the rollers are adjustable side to side so I can adjust string spacing to where I like it.

Thanks John

[355Pulse]

I've used Vibramate before and was impressed with it's simplicity and of course no need to drill any holes etc. Funnily enough I put a Wilkinson roller bridge on that particular guitar too and everything worked fine. I've used a "Towner" system too which worked pretty well also. I will take a look at the Schaller roller bridge as I've never used one of those before and being able to adjust the string space is a bonus I agree - I'd be interested to know which one you used?

 

Definitely agree that Gibson nut slots seem tight out of the factory, I've spoken to a few people these last few days that have had the exact same problem. Like you say though, too tight is better than too loose. My 355 is going to into the "tech" in the next few days to get those slots opened up a little so hoping that will resolve the issue.

[gt_jack]

Beautiful guitar. +1 on trying some Nut Sauce. It has helped solve problems for me on my Gibsons. They all seem to have the same issue due to the headstock angle.

[355Pulse]

Beautiful guitar. +1 on trying some Nut Sauce. It has helped solve problems for me on my Gibsons. They all seem to have the same issue due to the headstock angle.

 

Thanks and yes tuning issues apart it really is a stunning guitar. For the moment I've left it with my "tech" who knows how I like them to be set up so he's going to give it a thorough check over. I'm seriously hoping he sorts it out because a guitar that needs tuning after each song is no good to me in reality.

 

Lubricating the nut is definitely something I'll do in any case, I've kinda got into the routine of doing it over the years.

[355Pulse]

So I got my 355 back yesterday from the "tech" who was setting it up for me. He found and corrected these 4 main issues:

 

1) Nut slots too tight, especially on G and B strings.

2) Saddles lifting up from their housings - Bridge type no wire ABS-1 (I may consider changing this)

3) Bigsby arm / spring not fitted correctly (I had noticed this before and was going to correct on next string change)

4) Intonation was out on D, G, B and top E (I had noticed this before also)

 

I've also applied plenty of soft pencil graphite (Grade 6B) to the nut slots.

 

The good news is that the tuning has now significantly improved and seems to be settling down the more I play and I'd expect this to continue to improve over time as the guitar settles in.

 

My "tech" did say that other than the 4 issues, the guitar is beautifully made. Neck relief spot on and the frets are perfect and immaculately set as is pretty much everything else on the guitar. He also lowered the action to what he knows I prefer and of course a new set of strings. Correct stretching of strings and method of winding them on the post he also stressed as something to pay more attention to than you'd expect with a guitar such as this. Apparently he gets new Gibsons coming in all the time with people frustrated with similar problems, especially the nut and tuning stability. He also didn't charge me a penny as to use his words "it's been a pleasure to work on such an amazing guitar; you don't get to see many of these".

 

Ultimately I'm a lot happier to say the least, although a little disappointed in the Gibson QC which I feel should have picked up these issues and resolved before leaving the custom shop considering the cost of the guitar and the kudos that goes with it.

 

All's well that ends well, the tones of the 355 are something incredible indeed! She plays beautifully and is pretty much now stable tuning wise - HAPPY DAYS!!

[stein]

 

1) Nut slots too tight, especially on G and B strings.

2) Saddles lifting up from their housings - Bridge type no wire ABS-1 (I may consider changing this)

3) Bigsby arm / spring not fitted correctly (I had noticed this before and was going to correct on next string change)

4) Intonation was out on D, G, B and top E (I had noticed this before also)

 

 

Apparently he gets new Gibsons coming in all the time with people frustrated with similar problems, especially the nut and tuning stability. He also didn't charge me a penny as to use his words "it's been a pleasure to work on such an amazing guitar; you don't get to see many of these".

 

 

 

I suspect, it's really the PLEK to blame here. I can't say for sure, but it seems these nut issues came about when the PLEK stuff started.

 

I know that PLEK may have it's advantages, but this is having too much faith in a technology. Just because it's a machine don't make it perfect. Guitar makers have been doing good fretwork and good nuts for a long time before. How long it will take to learn how to use the PLEK, or what it can and can't do? who knows.

 

The rest of the issues, that's all set-up and adjustment. That's NOT Gibson, but rather, the dealer. Gibson doesn't set-up the guitars to perfection, nor should they. They set it up enough to be able to inspect the guitar. Then there is shipping, and personal preference. Personally, I wouldn't want Gibson spending too much time (which is money) setting up a guitar, they should be busy making them. Also, set-ups can and do change in shipping, with different climates. And also, even IF a guitar was set-up to perfection, it doesn't mean that it is MY preference.

 

But really, the main outlook is that when buying a guitar for Gibson money and quality, I ain't gonna judge the guitar or make a choice based on how well or not it is set-up. This guitar is made to last for a long time. There is going to be MANY set-ups done over the years, if it's a good guitar. I am going to do pretty much excatly as you did.

 

And that's how life is SUPPOSED to work. A great guitar deserves a great set-up and adjustment, and it doesn't get much better than a 355 with Bigsby.

[355Pulse]

I suspect, it's really the PLEK to blame here. I can't say for sure, but it seems these nut issues came about when the PLEK stuff started.

 

I know that PLEK may have it's advantages, but this is having too much faith in a technology. Just because it's a machine don't make it perfect. Guitar makers have been doing good fretwork and good nuts for a long time before. How long it will take to learn how to use the PLEK, or what it can and can't do? who knows.

 

The rest of the issues, that's all set-up and adjustment. That's NOT Gibson, but rather, the dealer. Gibson doesn't set-up the guitars to perfection, nor should they. They set it up enough to be able to inspect the guitar. Then there is shipping, and personal preference. Personally, I wouldn't want Gibson spending too much time (which is money) setting up a guitar, they should be busy making them. Also, set-ups can and do change in shipping, with different climates. And also, even IF a guitar was set-up to perfection, it doesn't mean that it is MY preference.

 

But really, the main outlook is that when buying a guitar for Gibson money and quality, I ain't gonna judge the guitar or make a choice based on how well or not it is set-up. This guitar is made to last for a long time. There is going to be MANY set-ups done over the years, if it's a good guitar. I am going to do pretty much excatly as you did.

 

And that's how life is SUPPOSED to work. A great guitar deserves a great set-up and adjustment, and it doesn't get much better than a 355 with Bigsby.

 

Agreed, the blame seems to lie with the PLEK as the main issue has been the nut binding the strings. The set-up and adjustment I agree with your reasoning, I guess personal expectations and excitement levels are set sky high when you finally get your hands on the guitar you've waited 30 years for. In reality it's not reasonable to expect perfection especially when it's travelled from Memphis to UK plus set-ups indeed are personal to the player.

 

You make a really good point about the dealer. I think they should be more responsible with high end guitar purchases but I guess that's all about money too. I've heard some dealers offers free set-up but unfortunately this one. Luckily for me my "tech" is a real cool guy and did it for free but he knows I'll always use him - good "old school" customer relations from him.

 

Coming back to the nut, it would make sense to add the human touch post PLEK cutting. It doesn't take much during QC to check the strings are binding and perhaps that would lead to a more satisfied customer. I accept nothing beats a pro set-up but I've got much cheaper Bigsby equipped guitars with better cut nuts straight out of the box.

 

The quality of the 355 overall is apparent; it's just simply a magnificent guitar! As you say it definitely doesn't get much better than a 355 with a Bigsby.

[4Hayden]

Mine doesn't have a Bigsby but I replaced the nut with a bone nut problem solved

 

4H

[355Pulse]

Mine doesn't have a Bigsby but I replaced the nut with a bone nut problem solved

 

4H

 

The 355 is the "luxury" version of the guitar and comes fitted with a bone nut as standard, otherwise that's exactly what I'd have done. It seems the PLEK in this instance (and many others I've since heard about) has cut the nut slots a little tight and results in the strings binding. On a new guitar you can really notice it and it's really frustrating.

 

It's really beginning to settle in now though after a month of solid playing and a few adjustments from my tech.

 

Ultimately a wonderful guitar, of that there is no doubt.

[4Hayden]

The 355 is the "luxury" version of the guitar and comes fitted with a bone nut as standard, otherwise that's exactly what I'd have done. It seems the PLEK in this instance (and many others I've since heard about) has cut the nut slots a little tight and results in the strings binding. On a new guitar you can really notice it and it's really frustrating.

 

It's really beginning to settle in now though after a month of solid playing and a few adjustments from my tech.

 

Ultimately a wonderful guitar, of that there is no doubt.

I replaced the nut before I found that out

 

 

4H

[capmaster]

Barely touching Bigsby, Maestro, Lyra, Fender vintage, Jaguar HH and so on vibrato arms invites trouble. I never use the Lyras on my FZ "Roxy" SGs which sadly came with them, and I sold the only other guitar with non-locking vibrato I ever owned before some months after buy in 1982.

 

The only useful and reliable vibratos are Floyd Rose systems which I use extensively since 1987. They provide perfect tuning stability. I know this is not a solution for any ES guitar, but that's the way it is.

[stein]

Barely touching Bigsby, Maestro, Lyra, Fender vintage, Jaguar HH and so on vibrato arms invites trouble. I never use the Lyras on my FZ "Roxy" SGs which sadly came with them, and I sold the only other guitar with non-locking vibrato I ever owned before some months after buy in 1982.

 

The only useful and reliable vibratos are Floyd Rose systems which I use extensively since 1987. They provide perfect tuning stability. I know this is not a solution for any ES guitar, but that's the way it is.

Well, in that sense, the only real tuning stability with or WITHOUT using the vibrato is a Floyd. (Or some other locking ones).

 

But for us regular folk, getting used to and good at using certain ones is the same as dealing with tuning issues on a fixed bridge guitar.

 

A man's GOT to know his limitations. Unless he has a Floyd. But then he has to learn how to do a string change on it.

[kaicho8888]

Ditto the nut slot fitting!I don't think the Plek does a good job making curves on nuts or crowing frets. The nut always binds and need widening, polishing, and lube. Plek appears to be good at leveling frets but crowning is poorly executed. I had to crown all my newer Plek'd Les Pauls and ES's. The Plek'd frets feel sharp and not crowned or rounded....OK, OK, I'm an old wuzz and used to the old Gibson handmade stuff.

[capmaster]

...

 

A man's GOT to know his limitations. Unless he has a Floyd. But then he has to learn how to do a string change on it.

The very challenge of Floyd Rose systems is the setup, in particular string action. This is a trial and error game of cushioning bridge, tuning string down completely, removing all the springs, holding bridge, adjusting posts, reinstall springs, releasing bridge, tuning up, removing cushion, fine-tuning and checking action. Balancing and setting intonations is comparatively fast and easy. Anyway, when staying with string brand and gauges and tuning as well, it's done once and for all. New springs will call for retensioning and thus re-balancing, but this is done fast and easy. Tightening the two screws until tuning pitches are correct will do.

 

Changing strings one by one on FR guitars is not that troublesome. A string cutter is required, of course. I admit there's a certain thrill is clamping wound strings for the first time. The core wire must be held securely by pinching the wrapping, and same time all of the threads shall survive this procedure. However, I did far more than hundred string changes on FR guitars since 1987 and never caused any damage.

 

When it's done, it's simply FUN!