Is this really a 1951 Gibson J-45 ? How does it sound ? How about its low end ?

[gotomsdos]

Hi, old folks out there !

I'm looking for a good sounding 46'-51' Gibson J-45.

Bumped the following (titled as 1951 J-45):

There's a youtube video in the bottom:

https://reverb.com/item/1089830-gibson-j-45-1951-sunburst

 

Question 1:

Do you think its back is Hog ?

In my eye, it looks like Rosewood...

 

Question 2:

It has a drop in saddle which comes from 1953 or so to my knowledge.

Is this a 1951 ?

 

Question 3:

how do you think it sounds ?

From the fingerpicking part of the video (flatpicking part excluded, because I'm just a fingerpicker), is its low end enough? Its low end does not sound enough (in my ear). Is it because the guy gives a soft finger attack ?

 

Any feedback would be much appreciated...

[j45nick]

It's impossible to tell if it's a 1951 from the details. The bridge may have been replaced (drop-in saddle rather than slot-through), and a pickup has been added. I can't tell if the headstock is tapered or not, even doing a freeze-frame of the video.

 

You should ask the seller for the FON if you are interested in the guitar, to try to pin down the year. If he says it's a 1951, you still need demonstrable proof, which would be a FON in the 6000-9000 range with no letter prefix. A letter prefix means 1952 or later, given the other visible characteristics of the guitar. A FON without a letter prefix but with these visible characteristics would probably mean 1948-1951. In that time period, the guitars were pretty much the same, with few manufacturing differences,

 

It certainly looks like a J-45 from 1948-1954, but within that timeframe, I can't tell without more detail.

 

It also sounds very much like a J-45 from that period. Whether the balance and tone are what you are looking for, I certainly can't tell from the recording.

 

It's a mahogany guitar, although the back finish looks a bit odd. No rosewood J-45's were built in that period.

[E-minor7]

ReHey Gotomsdos - 9 viewers on this thread, 61 on the ditto gone wrong. Don't know what the heck to read into that.

 

 

 

Regarding the your theme, one figures you're still on the hunt for that special vintage 45. Been goin' on a while now, hasn't it.

 

Listen carefully to j45nick's words and write the advice down in a book. You need to be prepared if the right deer shows in front of you.

 

Could it be the one on Reverb - Maybe, , , it sounds like a good, rather straight old 45.

 

And yes, the bass may be a bit withheld - perhaps the recording ? Apart from that, it's appears balanced and healthy.

 

So why not take a shot at it just to get started. If you have the budget, throw yourself into the game now.

 

Life's too short for sitting in the bush waiting years for the right animal to come along. Strike, , , then pass it on if it disappoints.

 

Good Luck

[Jesse_Dylan]

#1

I think hog! There is something kind of funny looking about it, like maybe a particular stain (they're all unique), but I'd place bets on it being mahogany.

 

#2

For that amount of money, I think you really gotta be sure you're getting what you want. I'm not expert enough to tell by a long shot, but as was said, hopefully the seller has proof that it is what it is.

 

#3

I think it sounds AMAZING. That resonance, wow. Really, really like it. I also think his playing is a little light on the bass. I think he has a thin pick and does not emphasize the bass notes, and I think his fingerpicking is light. I don't know if a J-45 is the most bassy guitar in the world anyway, but it is a very growly midrangy one. From what I heard in the video, the bass is there, and I think it would come out with the right pick and playing. It certainly does not sound weak in any way to me, even in the video.

 

Again though, for that kind of money, you gotta make sure you're getting what you want.

 

I did enjoy your sharing this experience with us, though. I kind of feel like I'm going guitar shopping with you! Fun. I really like this guitar. Don't know if I'd pay that kind of money. Well, I would, if I had the money and if it was exactly what I wanted!

[gotomsdos]

，，，

Thank you j45nick for your detailed help !

[gotomsdos]

,,,

Thank you j45nick for your encouragement !

Yes, I've been looking for a good sounding old J-45...

[gotomsdos]

 

#3

I think it sounds AMAZING. That resonance, wow.

Maybe Yes except low end.

 

I did enjoy your sharing this experience with us, though. I kind of feel like I'm going guitar shopping with you! Fun.

Oh, I'd love to.

Let's go guitar window shopping together !

 

I really like this guitar.

I've given this up, cause:

1, bridge changed

2, back and sides maybe oversprayed.

3, pickup installed.

4, low end restrained (maybe the guy's soft finger attack, no way to know)

So, you just shoot bucks to it...

[gotomsdos]

Removed.

[gotomsdos]

Two old GIBSON J-45s as followed:

(URL is at the bottom)

 

Year: 1949

Notes: Serial: #4441-12

Condition: Excellent

Case: orig hsc

Price: $6600 (beyond my budget)

 

Year: 1951

Notes: Serial: #7860-9

Condition: VG-EXC.

Case: hsc

Price: $4700 (in my budget)

 

The price is pretty good, but the back of this one has a kind of wide, kind of long center beam (located at 7th of this guitar's pics) And your comment ?

Besides, no sound clip is available, it's a pity.

 

 

BTW, an old SJ (not my dish) as followed:

GIBSON SJ BANNER $7200.

 

URL:

http://www.guitarandbanjo.com/inventory/Used%20Gibson%20Guitars?items_per_page=20

[j45nick]

Two old GIBSON J-45s as followed:

(URL is at the bottom)

 

Notes: Serial: #7860-9

Condition: VG-EXC.

Case: hsc

Price: $4700 (in my budget)

The price is pretty good, but the back of this one has a kind of wide, kind of long center beam (located at 7th of this guitar's pics) which may be beyond the range that I can accept. And your comment ?

Besides, no sound clip is available, it's a pity.

 

 

 

URL:

http://www.guitarandbanjo.com/inventory/Used%20Gibson%20Guitars?items_per_page=20

 

That 1951 looks like good value to me, but with no description or sound clip, it's hard to know what you are getting into. The back seam separation doesn't bother me much.

[gotomsdos]

Thank you J45nick !

The back seam separation doesn't bother me much.

How come ?

Tell more ?

[j45nick]

Thank you J45nick !

 

How come ?

Tell more ?

 

The centerline back cleat on the inside of the guitar provides structural support, in the form of a lot of gluing surface, for the centerline back joint, which has very little gluing surface. If it bothers you cosmetically, a good luthier can repair the back seam to the point that it will be invisible.

[zombywoof]

If something like an open back seam scares you then you might consider going with a new/newish guitar or sticking with one of the big sexy dealers like Gruhn. It will cost you more but what that buys you is some peace of mind. The keys to buying these old guitars is not only knowing a good example when you hear it but being able to spot condition issues and quickly figure in your head whether the repair can be put off, how difficult a repair it is and what it is going to cost.

[Jesse_Dylan]

Maybe Yes except low end.

 

 

Oh, I'd love to.

Let's go guitar window shopping together !

 

 

I've given this up, cause:

1, bridge changed

2, back and sides maybe oversprayed.

3, pickup installed.

4, low end restrained (maybe the guy's soft finger attack, no way to know)

So, you just shoot bucks to it...

 

Well, I can certainly understand that, and again, spending this much, you want to be sure you are 100% enamoured. I agree the back and sides look oversprayed. The pickup would bug me too (much more than the potential overspray). I am of the opinion that guitars need TLC and correct playing, but that is mostly an opinion about new guitars--a guitar this old and expensive, you want to be sure of what you're getting... Although I do want to say that I think J-45s are not the bassiest of guitars. I would call them rich and resonant. It's strange, because I would say my Hummingbird Vintage is really bassy, and my Martin M-36 is bassy, but I would not say my J-15, or J-45s, are bassy in the same way... but they are almost magically full-sounding, resonant and rich, which lends to an extremely deep tone... without being "bassy" per se. Maybe I am living in an imaginary world and not making sense though. :)

 

I do think a J-45 is magical, and a vintage one has so much history. I agree with what Zomby said, that you want to be satisfied, and that might mean spending more and going with an upper-class kind of shop, just to make absolute sure.

 

While I continue living vicariously, a video that Scott Nygard did about a vintage J-45 he purchased comes to mind. I'll see if I can find it.

 

http://youtu.be/p9FZznFHdCM

 

There we go. This one sounds almost supernatural to me. I would never expect a J-45 to be a great flatpicking guitar, nor would I ever expect it to be loud. To my mind, for a loud guitar, or a flatpicking guitar, I'd go with a Martin, or a J-60 ("Bonecrusher") or something, not a J-45.... But this one is loud as heck. I think of a J-45 as having a deeper sound, rich and resonant, suitable for singing. Not saying this one doesn't have those things, just saying this one also seems to be extremely loud.

[j45nick]

While I continue living vicariously, a video that Scott Nygard did about a vintage J-45 he purchased comes to mind. I'll see if I can find it.

 

http://youtu.be/p9FZznFHdCM

 

There we go. This one sounds almost supernatural to me. I would never expect a J-45 to be a great flatpicking guitar, nor would I ever expect it to be loud. To my mind, for a loud guitar, or a flatpicking guitar, I'd go with a Martin, or a J-60 ("Bonecrusher") or something, not a J-45.... But this one is loud as heck. I think of a J-45 as having a deeper sound, rich and resonant, suitable for singing. Not saying this one doesn't have those things, just saying this one also seems to be extremely loud.

 

Scott Nygaard knows how to get the best out of a guitar, and he certainly does it with this J-45. Picks, strings, and technique. And a great guitar helps.

 

Not all J-45's have this much clarity and character, but many do. To my mind and ear, 1946-1951 J-45's are the best, except for some of the new ones which emulate them.

[tpbiii]

I don't know if this will be of any help, but we have a '52 J-45. It has had quite a bit of work done on it (badly by an amateur) that was reversible and reversed pretty well by Randy Wood. The work was inside, not outside -- the back had to come off and a lot of extra glue removed -- massive overkill for a loose brace or two. Here are a couple of pictures:

 

 

Here it is being played.

 

https://vimeo.com/8211132

 

https://vimeo.com/8211027

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[Jesse_Dylan]

Tom, you guys sound great! I'm sure you've heard this 10,000 times, but any desire moving your videos over to YouTube? Deserves to be heard/seen.

[gotomsdos]

The centerline back cleat on the inside of the guitar provides structural support, in the form of a lot of gluing surface, for the centerline back joint, which has very little gluing surface. If it bothers you cosmetically, a good luthier can repair the back seam to the point that it will be invisible.

Thank you j45nick !

Of course, I can accept a not wide center beam,

But a bit hard to accept a bit wide one(cause I feel this is not only something cosmetic) unless this sounds awesome to jus blow me ! But sound clip is NOT available, no way to know how it sounds.

[tpbiii]

Tom, you guys sound great! I'm sure you've heard this 10,000 times, but any desire moving your videos over to YouTube? Deserves to be heard/seen.

 

I have a few of them over there. When I started this project 6+ years ago, youtube audio was not adequate. Now they have caught up, but I haven't I guess. Search for tpbiii on youtube, and it will show what is there. There are over 100, but there are over 500 on vimeo -- also under tpbiii. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing I guess .

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[gotomsdos]

Tom, great ensemble !

[gotomsdos]

If something like an open back seam scares you then you might consider going with a new/newish guitar or sticking with one of the big zombywoofsexy dealers like Gruhn. It will cost you more but what that buys you is some peace of mind. The keys to buying these old guitars is not only knowing a good example when you hear it but being able to spot condition issues and quickly figure in your head whether the repair can be put off, how difficult a repair it is and what it is going to cost.

Thank you for reply zombywoof !

Don't you mind a wide back center seam cleat-repaired either ?

No problem may happen in the future ?

[j45nick]

Thank you for reply zombywoof !

Don't you mind a wide back center seam cleat-repaired either ?

No problem may happen in the future ?

 

The centerline cleat on the 1951 J-45 in the photos is not a repair. It is part of the original construction, for the reason I mentioned previously. The centerline back cleat is a glued-in piece of maple or spruce about 24 mm wide and 3 mm thick, with the grain running perpendicular to the centerline back seam. It is a standard construction detail for almost any acoustic guitar, of any brand, that has a two-piece back.

 

You may be mis-interpreting photo 7 in the listing for the 1951 J-45, because of the angle from which the photo is taken. The centerline cleat (which I believe is what you are referring to as the "beam") is on the right side of the inside of the guitar in the photo (close to the pickguard in the photo). The angle of the photo makes it look off-center, but it is not, and I can tell it is the original, since you can see the J-45 ink stamp on it. My own 1948-1950 J-45 has exactly the same cleat, with exactly the same stamp,

[gotomsdos]

 

 

You may be mis-interpreting photo 7 in the listing for the 1951 J-45, because of the angle from which the photo is taken. The centerline cleat (which I believe is what you are referring to as the "beam") is on the right side of the inside of the guitar in the photo (close to the pickguard in the photo). The angle of the photo makes it look off-center, but it is not, and I can tell it is the original, since you can see the J-45 ink stamp on it. My own 1948-1950 J-45 has exactly the same cleat, with exactly the same stamp,

 

Thank you for details j45nick 1

But maybe we misunderstood each other..

Sorry, "beam" is my spelling error, just "seam".

 

I meant something white line-like,like glue remains of the OUTSIDE OF BACK(photo 8[i added its pic in my reply #9], not 7, chances are that you did not see this photo ?) I meant this stuff. It seems that there was a back center seam a bit wide, and then was glue-jammed with a film like piece of wood, but maybe because of not good skill, glue residues seen, looks like a white earthworm ever crept along the back center seam. This is what I mean...

Wonder if I said properly ?

[zombywoof]

Thank you for reply zombywoof !

Don't you mind a wide back center seam cleat-repaired either ?

No problem may happen in the future ?

 

 

Nope. In fact the last Gibson I bought not only had an open back seam but four other back cracks, two of which were open. Never phased me as I knew they were not a big deal to repair and I knew how much it would cost me.

[j45nick]

I meant something white line-like,like glue remains of the OUTSIDE OF BACK(photo 8, not 7, chances are that you did not see this photo ?) which, looks even a bit disgusting in one's eye. I meant this stuff. It seems that there was a back center seam a bit wide, and then was glue-jammed with a film like piece of wood, but maybe because of not good skill, glue remains seen, looks like a white earthworm ever crept along the back center seam, a bit disgusting. This is what I mean...

Wonder if I said properly ?

 

 

I suspect what we are looking at there is a dried residue of polish, not glue, from someone cleaning the back. You see a similar residue around several places on the back where the finish is chipped off.

 

This is the unfortunate by-product of cleaning and polishing the guitar when there was a finish crack along the centerline back seam. It has no impact on the structural integrity of the guitar. A luthier can fix that for you if it bothers you, but there will be a cost associated with it.

 

If things like that are going to bother you, you should not be looking at vintage guitars, as this is a really common problem. You are unlikely to find the perfection you seem to be looking for in a 65-year-old guitar. IF you do find it, it probably either means that the guitar has been re-finished at some point, or if the guitar has never been touched and remains in its original condition, you will never be able to afford it.

 

When you buy vintage guitars, it's almost always a matter of deciding what cosmetic and/or structural flaws you are willing to accept. You buy vintage guitars for vintage tone, playability, and character: not for cosmetic perfection.