1946 J-45 Script quest

[Charlie99]

Thanks for that clarification. Guidelines are handy for reference - provided they are used for guidance and not as written in stone rules.

[75 Hummingbird]

Well i am late to the conversation by a year but///....I just bought a one owner J 45 bought by a man in April 1950 ...no serial number ..no F.O.N ...and a rectangular 1940`s saddle .

I think it is a 1948-  49  ..Non script logo instrument ...how do i find out the year  for sure ... it`s a mystery i.m.o ...She`s been played hard ...repaired cracks and bruises BUT ...best sounding flat top i ever played ....

Anyone with info on solving the 1947  to 1949 non FON guitars feedback would be awesome .

[j45nick]

Chances are it's a 1948, but without a FON, you can't be sure. I have two J-45's that are probably from 1950, both with FON's that theoretically could be 1948 or 1950, both with belly-up bridges and block logos.  I bought one from the original owner a couple of months ago, so I know definitively when that guitar was first sold.

Both also have vertical wood "popsicle stick" side stays, which replaced the older fabric side stays after 1948.  If your guitar has a rectangular bridge, fabric side stays, and a block logo, it is probably either 1947 or 1948. If it has popsicle stick side stays, it would almost certainly be 1948.

Edited May 26, 2019 by j45nick
added additional info

[zombywoof]

3 hours ago, Scott Dwyre said:

Well i am late to the conversation by a year but///....I just bought a one owner J 45 bought by a man in April 1950 ...no serial number ..no F.O.N ...and a rectangular 1940`s saddle .

I think it is a 1948-  49  ..Non script logo instrument ...how do i find out the year  for sure ... it`s a mystery i.m.o ...She`s been played hard ...repaired cracks and bruises BUT ...best sounding flat top i ever played ....

Anyone with info on solving the 1947  to 1949 non FON guitars feedback would be awesome .

 

All Gibsons have a FON.  They just do not appear on all guitars.  I agree with j45nick though that the guitar was most likely built in 1948.  That would be the  last year for rectangular bridges.   If your guitar has enclosed Kluson tuners it would be no earlier than 1948.  That does not mean you will not run into examples of 1948 Gibsons with the bent tab open gear tuners.  It just means they are not as common as Gibson would have been using up older style tuners they still had in stock.

 

Probably the main reason the '46 script logo guitars are particularly sought after is that it was the last year for the 1 /34" nut.  Between the logo and nut width it was the end of an era.

Edited May 26, 2019 by zombywoof

[75 Hummingbird]

Thanks for fast reply ...she has popsicle side stays , ,,,,open back tuners , Kluson ..pat applied for .

Does that help narrow the year down ?

Feed back good .

[j45nick]

This is a classic case that demonstrates that the features of vintage Gibsons did not necessarily change all at once, at a fixed point in time. The zombywoof probably knows the tuners and their history better than anyone else here, but as we know, Gibson used up existing stocks of parts even after making the decision to change to something else. There are always "transition" guitars that have seemingly conflicting characteristics.

You could probably say with confidence that it is no later than 1948, just based on the tuners and the bridge. Probably no earlier than late in '47 based on the block logo and popsicle stays. What's the width of the nut, just for reference? (measure it with a digital caliper if you can, for greater precision).

Without knowing the FON, it's impossible to say definitively. Maybe someone here has one with the same combination of characteristics AND a stamped FON.

I assume you've looked carefully with good light and magnification to determine beyond a doubt that there is no trace of a FON.

[75 Hummingbird]

Thank you , nut width 1.71    ....no stamp on neck block , i have examined with flash light ,glasses ,and a mirror ,only 2 pencil marks each inch and a half long roughly .on block end .

The neck block has no angled cuts on it ...it is a cube 

[zombywoof]

Your reference to the "open back" tuners is  confusing.  The "PAT. APPLD" stamp is found only on enclosed Kluson strip or individual tuners.  Gibson started using these in 1948 although you will still run into guitars built that year with open gear tuners.  Those on your guitar should read " Kluson Deluxe" down the center line of the tuner case. 

The square neck block is no help as Gibson went from a beveled neck block to a squared one some time in late 1942.  The wood side supports also do not help as they were  used into the early 1950s.

I, like J45nick,  keep coming back to 1948.   In a nutshell,  a 1947 J45 would have open gear peened tuners.  If a 1949 it would have an FON.   But as has been said about Gibsons, the only thing consistent about them is their inconsisteny.    That goes double for guitars built in the 1940s.

Edited May 27, 2019 by zombywoof

[j45nick]

I was confused by the "open back" tuner reference as well. Based solely on the block logo and rectangular bridge, you still come back to late '47 or '48.  I don't see any way to pin it down more closely. There is little to differentiate between  J-45's in this period. Most of them are pretty darn good git-tars.

Edited May 27, 2019 by j45nick
correction of error

[75 Hummingbird]

It has open gear tuners ..Kluson  mfg  co . P.A.F. Chicago Illinois stamped .

Stamp is located around the middle string  post ,and you need to remove the 3 on a plate to read it .

There is no cover  what so ever over any of  the gears . Hope this adds clarification .

Thank you for your knowledge and help in refining when my j 45 was built .

I hope with the above info you can narrow date down to perhaps 12 months .

[blindboygrunt]

Charlie , keep an eye on , if you haven't already  Glenn's guitars 

Glennsguitars.co.uk I think , may be .com

He just deals from his home in London but he always has a hell of a collection up for sale at any time , might be worth chatting to him about what you're after 

 

Best of luck 

[j45nick]

7 hours ago, Scott Dwyre said:

 

I hope with the above info you can narrow date down to perhaps 12 months .

Maybe you should contact George Gruhn at Gruhn guitars in Nashville and ask for his professional opinion.  My guess is he would say "based on the preponderance of evidence, this appears to be a Gibson J-45 from late 1947 or early 1948."