mycrophone Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 As I am poised to purchase a new Songwriter, I would be grateful if one of you guys could clarify a few things for me concerning the various new models (Standard, Standard EC, Custom)? 1) On the Gibson website, in the Overview for the new 2009 Songwriter Deluxe Standard as well as the Cutaway model, Gibson's write-up says “Using Gibson's popular Songwriter Deluxe Studio as its template, the Songwriter Deluxe Standard adds a new compound radius fingerboard for electric guitar-like playing action”. However, for the new 2009 Songwriter Deluxe Custom model, the write-up omits that statement entirely. Please can someone tell me if the new 2009 Custom model of the Songwriter also incorporates the “new compound radius fingerboard for electric guitar-like playing action”. 2) I notice that the Standard and Cutaway models incorporate the $300 Fishman Aura pick-up system whereas the more expensive Custom model only uses the $100 L.R. Baggs Element Active pick-up system. What would the reason be for this on the flagship top model? 3) Would anyone say that the Fishman Aura Ellipse control module in the soundhole would affect the quality of the sound coming from the guitar. I mean it is like a big semi-circular thing right around the exit point of the soundbox. Would it dampen the top or get in the way of the emitted sound? 4) Would there be a reason why the Standard and EC models have ebony/abalone bridge pins whereas the more expensive Custom model has tacky white plastic ones?!? 5) Would the cutaway body on the EC affect the sound quality at all? I wish Gibson had a detailed specifications list of each guitar like Taylor does. It is very difficult to get to the heart of any guitar just going by what is on Gibson's website. And it is made even worse by the fact that the online guitar stores have info which conflicts with what is on Gibson's website (e.g. Guitar Center and others say that the Songwriter Deluxe Standard has a Fishman Aura Pro pickup, which is incorrect!). I need to get some answers to my questions urgently as I am currently in the process of making a buying decision. Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing from you. Alan http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 As I am poised to purchase a new Songwriter' date=' I would be grateful if one of you guys could clarify a few things for me concerning the various new models (Standard, Standard EC, Custom)? 1) On the Gibson website, in the Overview for the new 2009 Songwriter Deluxe Standard as well as the Cutaway model, Gibson's write-up says [i']“Using Gibson's popular Songwriter Deluxe Studio as its template, the Songwriter Deluxe Standard adds a new compound radius fingerboard for electric guitar-like playing action”[/i]. However, for the new 2009 Songwriter Deluxe Custom model, the write-up omits that statement entirely. Please can someone tell me if the new 2009 Custom model of the Songwriter also incorporates the “new compound radius fingerboard for electric guitar-like playing action”. 2) I notice that the Standard and Cutaway models incorporate the $300 Fishman Aura pick-up system whereas the more expensive Custom model only uses the $100 L.R. Baggs Element Active pick-up system. What would the reason be for this on the flagship top model? 3) Would anyone say that the Fishman Aura Ellipse control module in the soundhole would affect the quality of the sound coming from the guitar. I mean it is like a big semi-circular thing right around the exit point of the soundbox. Would it dampen the top or get in the way of the emitted sound? 4) Would there be a reason why the Standard and EC models have ebony/abalone bridge pins whereas the more expensive Custom model has tacky white plastic ones?!? 5) Would the cutaway body on the EC affect the sound quality at all? I wish Gibson had a detailed specifications list of each guitar like Taylor does. It is very difficult to get to the heart of any guitar just going by what is on Gibson's website. And it is made even worse by the fact that the online guitar stores have info which conflicts with what is on Gibson's website (e.g. Guitar Center and others say that the Songwriter Deluxe Standard has a Fishman Aura Pro pickup, which is incorrect!). I need to get some answers to my questions urgently as I am currently in the process of making a buying decision. Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing from you. Alan http://www.sinceritymusic.com 1) I can't tell you the answer, but I too have been frustrated by Gibson's lack of detailed product information. Then when you do get the information, it's not always consistent. My guess would be that they put the new radiused fretboards on all the 2009 models, but that is only a guess. 2) With regard to Fishman Ellipse versus LR Baggs Element...I have played a few EC models (albeit 2008 and before) and I find the Fishman system bulky and an eyesore. For that reason, I only considered the "plain" Songwriter Deluxe back then because I also didn't need the cutaway. Having said that, I've been very happy with the Element that is on both my Modern Classics and my Pete Townshend J-200. The Element only has a soundhole volume control, but I prefer to use the Baggs Para DI anyway, so it works out well. 3) Whether that black plastic monstrosity affects the sound I can't say for sure. It certainly isn't going to help it, IMHO. At that point, it seems to me that you're really getting an electric guitar and the acoustic part is secondary. So I guess it depends on what you plan to do with this guitar most...play unplugged or plugged in? 4) That doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't surprise me, either. I'm not sure why nearly all of my $2000+ guitars have come with plastic pins. I know some of them were trying to be "period correct" but others were clearly to cut costs. 5) Others could comment on this better than me because I don't own a cutaway. But the question is whether you need it and will use it. Of course, the real test is for you to play the guitar (or several) if possible and pick the one you like based on sound and feel. I realize this might not be possible in your geographic location. This kind of goes back to my comment in #3. Here is a Songwriter Deluxe at Musician's Friend: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Acoustic-Songwriter-Deluxe-Studio-EC-AcousticElectric-Guitar?sku=517047 They claim this guitar has the Fishman Prefix and I'll bet this is last year's model at this year's price. Meanwhile, here's another one: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Songwriter-Deluxe-Standard-EC-AcousticElectric-Guitar?sku=580336 New model, with the Element. As you can tell, I don't have definitive answers to your questions, but after buying 6 different Gibsons I have some opinions and you caught me on a Saturday morning...=D>/ Good luck in finding the best guitar for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Thanks for the thoughts, PowerPopper. I take your point about the Fishman Aura Ellipse (which you rightly call a "black plastic monstrosity"). Maybe I'm too much of a purist but it seems like turning the guitar into a synthesiser. I use a T.C. Electronic G-Natural for light acoustic effects so the L.R. Baggs Element under-saddle pickup would do fine. I was just intrigued as to why Gibson had opted for that on the Custom model. I will be playing plugged but I do seek fidelity of sound. However, the "compound radius fingerboard" is important to me. I agree that it is quite likely that it will be the same as the other 2009 models but it is not very helpful to omit saying so. My colleague even spoke to a rep at Gibson and they couldn't confirm one way or the other. In fact, he said "well it must be just like on all other Gibson guitars". Can you imagine? The mind boggles! Here I am trying to buy a Gibson guitar and I can't even get basic information. On Taylor's website there are detailed specifications and comparisons of every guitar. I just hope I can get some answers from someone somewhere! Please help if you can! Thanks! Alan http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Have you been able to actually play any of the models you're considering? Doing so would probably answer your questions on the material features of the guitar and their effect on the sound/playability. As to why Gibson includes this or that feature on this or that model but not on the other one, from my experience there doesn't seem to be an answer, and this may be why no exact specs are offered. It seems to me that the different guitars Gibson presents on their website are basically archetypes of the guitars they actually build. While the body size and shape of any given model are definite, the wood combinations, appointments, and ornamentation may vary from one guitar to the next. Thus the best way to see, feel, and hear what the guitars you're considering buying are like is to go out and play them, if possible. If not, I suppose the best thing would be to ask folks who have played them, which is what you're doing here I guess, and then order one that fits the bill you've defined and hope that it actually will sound/play like you hope it will. FWIW I would be reluctant to purchase a guitar, Gibson or otherwise, without actually playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 FWIW I would be reluctant to purchase a guitar' date=' Gibson or otherwise, without actually playing it.[/quote'] In general, I agree with this except when I get a nice discount and have return privileges. But from what I gather here, our friends in Europe have a hard time finding Gibsons in quantity, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 That is correct, PowerPopper. There have been tremendous problems in recent times with Gibson distribution into Europe. I think there still are. Apparently, it will be months yet before the new Songwriters are widely distributed into European stores. In the UK, there used to be a London-based middle-man which did it (I think it was Rose-Morris). But after they stopped, confusion and unfulfilled orders reigned. You don't realise how lucky you are in the US with all your Guitar Centers and a multitude of online possibilities all fighting with each other to give the lowest discount. Jayla, I understand your concerns and share them. I realise that the guitars presented on the Gibson website are templates and that the manufactured models differ in little ways concerning aesthetics and materials. However, what I am primarily trying to establish here is whether ALL the 2009 Songwriter models have what Gibson calls its "new compound radius fingerboard". The description here http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Square-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Songwriter-Deluxe-Standard.aspx says that the 2009 Deluxe Standard has it and the description here http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Square-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Songwriter-Deluxe-Standard-EC.aspx says that the 2009 Deluxe Standard cutaway version has it too. But the description here http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Square-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Songwriter-Deluxe-Custom.aspx concerning the 2009 Deluxe Custom doesn't mention any "new compound radius fingerboard", although it looks identical to the other two models. This is confusing for would-be buyers who get all their preliminary information off the internet (which describes me). It is even more confusing that no one at Gibson seems to know the answer. There seems to be something lacking in the PR/Marketing department. If it was Taylor (who are even better at PR/Marketing than they are at making guitars ) there would even be an online video about how the new fingerboard was conceived and manufactured! Anyway, I hope that explains things. I'm still waiting for an answer. Thanks for your help. Alan http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It is even more confusing that no one at Gibson seems to know the answer. There seems to be something lacking in the PR/Marketing department. Have you by any chance been trying to get the info from Gibson Customer Service in Nashville? As a general rule, those folks don't have any idea what is going on in Bozeman. If you want to know about acoustics, call Bozeman. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks for that, Bob. I've addressed my questions to the folks in Montana and am awaiting a response. BTW, while I'm speaking about the 2009 Songwriter models, is it true that many who own the previous models don't regard the new models as being real Songwriters because the bridge no longer has the fancy hallmark moustache shape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumps Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I can't answer all of your questions... but I can add this: the only significant difference between the Songwriter Standard (new for 2009) and the other Songwriters is the radius fretboard. I haven't played it so I can't give a comment on what it feels like. I can say that all the other features that are glowingly reviewed for the Standard are also on the other Songwriters - AAA stitka spruce top, bracing, glue, neck, etc. I don't know what kind of pickup I have in mine - don't use it - but it has a volume wheel just under the rim of the soundhole, and a pouch of some sort inside at the neck... I have no comment on that.. I own a Songwriter Deluxe Studio and love the sound, best guitar I've ever played at any price. having said that, I can't find enough different about the Standard to justify the extra $700 or so. And don't fret about the moustache bridge... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertjohn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Can't answer your questions about the differences in the current models and I have no idea about the fancy new radius fretboard. But a few observations: I'm another SWD fan. I've had mine for over a year and play it most days when I can. It gets better with every string change. I've not played the new radius fretboard. Some necks you like, others you won't. I used to like the thin neck on my old Yamaha FG but since I've had the SWD, it's too small for me now and I don't play it all - on loan with a friend's son. I would miss the moustache bridge but I doubt if it adds much to the tone (someone will disagree I hope) but I too don't undertand why they have dropped it. It's give the guitar some distinguished character. I have the Cutaway 07 model. It has the Fishman Prefix (?) system which is very versatile. I have gigged it several times now through good and bad PAs and my little Marshall AS50 and I've always been able to get a very natural sound. It has a 3 band eq, one of which is variable and a very useful notch filter. Built in tuner as well - another controversial subject on this Forum. A point of order - it was Rosetti who were Gibson's former UK distributors until about a year ago. Shops in the UK are now supplied direct from the States. Whilst the supply of acoustics is patchy (anecdotal evidence only) there are some notable exceptions and I've not seen any of the 2009 songwriters in the flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Okay, I've just received some answers to my questions from Bozeman. It goes like this (and take note all other enquirers 'cos there's a lot of misinformation out there). 1) The 2009 Songwriter Deluxe Custom model does NOT have the new compound radius fretboard even though it looks like it would. Only the Standard and Standard EC models have it. 2) The information on the Gibson website which says that the Custom model has an L.R. Baggs Element Active Pickup is false. Like the Standard and cutaway models, it in fact has a Fishman Aura Ellipse setup. The online stores have copied this false info so it's all over the internet now alongside the other false info on some sites about some of the new models having a Fishman Aura Pro setup. 3) When the guy at Bozeman was asked if the Fishman Aura Ellipse control module in the soundhole would affect the quality of sound coming from the guitar he said "absolutely not. It is very light and it doesn't buzz. It has been specially designed". He said he tested it and has been playing Songwriters ever since the first prototype that came out in 1997. Well that's all I've got for now. Someone needs to do a lot of checking and rechecking of info on the Gibson website and then change what is false. It looks like someone's been doing a lot of cutting-and-pasting from other guitar info and then forgetting to change certain relevant bits. That's all for now. I'm really interested in trying the Standard EC model but there won't be any floating around Europe for months. It's a regular desert here for guitar distribution. Quite depressing really. Thanks for being there. Good luck... Alan Sincerity - Music from the Heart for the Soul http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 It's really unfortunate that anybody would have to go to such lengths to get basic information about a product. It helps no one -- neither Gibson, the dealer, nor the consumer -- that misinformation like you've described is cut and pasted all over the internet, and that you actually have to contact the manufacturer to find the truth. I guess that neither Gibson nor their dealers feel its worth their time and effort to post the actual specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I imagine the situation is made worse by the fact that there are probably quite a few Songwriter Deluxes out there from 2008 that *kind of* fit the new spec, but not quite, so if you get an '08 it's one thing and if you get an '09 it's something else. I purchased a Taylor earlier this year where had I gotten an '08 model the bracing would have been different. Fortunately, my dealer got me an '09 with the new and improved bracing. Unfortunately, it wasn't a Gibson, so I returned it and got a TV LTD Hummingbird...:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 This gets curiouser and curiouser, Alice-like. I just had a response from Gibson's Europe HQ assuring me that "The Songwriter deluxe custom also features the compound radius fingerboard". He also confirmed that the Custom has the Fishman Aura rather than the L.R. Baggs, saying "the information on the website is not correct". So who is one to believe about the Songwriter Deluxe Custom fingerboard? Bozeman or the European director of customer service, who I already know from previous correspondence to be very knowledgeable about Gibson instruments? (He has gone away and diligently researched about my questions so as to answer them). As I say, curiouser and curiouser! Alan Sincerity - Music from the Heart for the Soul http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 As far as the compound radius fingerboard goes, this may be one where the real answer is "we don't know." If Bozeman is telling you one thing and the European DOCS is telling you another, my speculation would be that some of them have it and some of them don't and they can't tell you which are which. Again, just my speculation...all of which would not matter a whit if only you could play the guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Why not send a single email to both, describing your surprise and confusion at the conflicting information you've received and politely asking for clarification? You might even suggest that if Bozeman published complete, accurate specs on their website, as many guitar makers do, it would eliminate misinformation and give potential customers a single, reliable source of information on which to base their choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Why not send a single email to both' date=' describing your surprise and confusion at the conflicting information you've received and politely asking for clarification? You might even suggest that if Bozeman published complete, accurate specs on their website, as many guitar makers do, it would eliminate misinformation and give potential customers a single, reliable source of information on which to base their choices. [/quote'] Great suggestion. It is amazing how the right hand does not communicate with the left in many companies. I realize the two are on different continents, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Great suggestion. It is amazing how the right hand does not communicate with the left in many companies. I realize the two are on different continents' date=' but still...[/quote'] Reminds me of what Reagan said about O. North et al during the Iran-Contra scandal: "It seems my right hand doesn't know what my far-right hand is doing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 The story goes on. Now my colleague has just spoken to "Bill" at Bozeman and he claims that the Deluxe Custom DOES have the new compound radius fingerboard! I thought it must. It looks identical. But why in heaven's name are two spokespeople at Gibson's factory giving conflicting information? It could all be cleared up if the website actually had the right info on it in the same professional way that Taylor's site does. The new Songwriter with THAT neck looks like it's deliberately trying to compete with Taylor (whose guitars I have been looking at) and great competition it is too. But unless the web-builders get their act together they won't be competing on equal terms. So someone else here is old enough to remember Ollie Contra! ;o) Woohoo! Alan http://www.sinceritymusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 In my experience, if you are talking with "Bill" at Bozeman, you are talking to the right guy. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The story goes on. Now my colleague has just spoken to "Bill" at Bozeman and he claims that the Deluxe Custom DOES have the new compound radius fingerboard! I thought it must. It looks identical. But why in heaven's name are two spokespeople at Gibson's factory giving conflicting information? It could all be cleared up if the website actually had the right info on it in the same professional way that Taylor's site does. The new Songwriter with THAT neck looks like it's deliberately trying to compete with Taylor (whose guitars I have been looking at) and great competition it is too. But unless the web-builders get their act together they won't be competing on equal terms. I'm sure the web-builders only put up the information that is given to them by their bosses/clients. So' date=' if it ain't coming from above, it ain't appearing on the net. Truly unfortunate. So someone else here is old enough to remember Ollie Contra! ;o) Woohoo! Yes, I remember them. Hard as they tried, even Bush et Cie weren't able to make me completely forget their predecessors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm sure the web-builders only put up the information that is given to them by their bosses/clients. So' date=' if it ain't coming from above, it ain't appearing on the net. Truly unfortunate.[/quote'] I'm glad you brought that up because this has been one of the poorer website revamps/updates I have experienced. As much as I love Gibson, it has seemed half-assed since the word go. When it first went live, it took forever to load. It's gotten somewhat better, speedwise, but the "features" page of each guitar seem either unreliable, worthless or both. Lots and lots of words that may or may not relate to the product in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 There's actually a forum topic devoted to this very issue. The web makers are touting for feedback: http://forums.gibson.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=13496 Hope that helps. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayla Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 For comparison, Collings just revamped their website. Check it out at: http://www.collingsguitars.com/ It's still incomplete -- just went live today -- but already has a wealth of useful information. I wish Gibson had something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycrophone Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Collings. Very nice indeed. Everything clearly laid out. That's what happens when you pay a proper company to do the job. It's expensive but worth it from a marketing point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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