Jinder Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 "Trees are rapidly vanishing off the planet as well as lots else! Ethically we should be playing Carbon Fiber Guitars! Are we! No!" Speaking of which, I am very keen to try out one of those Rainsong guitars. I can't imagine ever liking the tone, but I would like to be pleasantly surprised by a guitar that is ecologically friendly, impervious to temperate changes and humidity, and isn't as "moody" as traditional wooden instruments. I reckon, in about 20 yrs when technology has advanced, there'll be pretty decent CF instruments about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cla Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Hey there guys been a while, I have a j-45 red spruce/mahogany. I changed from the old stock imitation tusk to the west African hard ivory as it is described by Bob Colossi. I'm not sure how much better or worse bone would sound on this guitar, guess I will try it one day when I get some time. The guitar as is sounds pretty fantastic when I have a set of strings on it that are right for tuning. It is a very clear responsive sound, not overly aggressive probably due to the mahogany though. Noticeably brighter then the stock saddle, which is good, considering the Gibson mid-range/bass common acoustic tone .. so it takes the sound just outside of that tone where it stands out clearly but gently without claiming too much attention.. This guitar knows its place at least. But you know that goes, a guitar has to know and respect his master to be content with its place:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robekert Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Got a Songwriter Mahogany Deluxe in December. Swapped the TUSQ saddle for an Elephant Ivory one (Colosi). The profile seemed the same but got some odd buzzing here and there on the fretboard. Probably could have taken it to a luthier but didn't want to. After a month or so of that decided to switch back to the TUSQ saddle with the next string change. Friends who don't know about changing back hear the guitar and say "that new saddle really improves the sustain and tone". Go figure. I then tell them it is the original TUSQ saddle. YMMV Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumps Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 The saddle and its material effects the sound incredibly !! Stumps go from a plastic saddle to bone then let us know about the difference ! If no one has done this they should! Pins and nut dont effect sound that much but saddle material does ask any luthier. Stumps if you dont hear a difference you need a hearing aid. suburude Hi suburude! How's it going! How's the left coast? Hey, my comment wasn't "saddle material won't make a difference" it was "i doubt there's enough difference between the TUSQ saddle I currently have and an elephant ivory saddle to warrant the expense" this guy was talking sound waves, and if you're going to compare the worst piece of crap saddle to the best in the world, we'd all hear it, but perhaps the difference between scientifically the best - EI - and the next best might be distinguishable onto on the little machine the PhD has... understand? Plus, I have mixed feelings about using ivory, I'm never convinced the money isn't flowing back to poachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburude63 Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 Stumps is Colossi sending those SOBs checks again? "I'm never convinced the money isn't flowing back to poachers." Hi suburude! How's it going! How's the left coast? Hey' date=' my comment wasn't "saddle material won't make a difference" it was "i doubt there's enough difference between the TUSQ saddle I currently have and an elephant ivory saddle to warrant the expense" this guy was talking sound waves, and if you're going to compare the worst piece of crap saddle to the best in the world, we'd all hear it, but perhaps the difference between scientifically the best - EI - and the next best might be distinguishable onto on the little machine the PhD has... understand? Plus, I have mixed feelings about using ivory, I'm never convinced the money isn't flowing back to poachers. [/quote'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumps Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Stumps is Colossi sending those SOBs checks again? "I'm never convinced the money isn't flowing back to poachers." so... since you dropped your remarks toward me regarding how much influence saddle material has, I assume that what I said makes sense to you, now? just because something was acquired "pre-ban" doesn't mean it was gathered ethically. The law and our moral compasses are two different things. notice I said "I" - as in I have mixed feelings about it - so I wouldn't buy it anyway. My Songwriter sings quite nicely now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith9509 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Legal Ivory has been in some sort of storage for years (Pre Ban) and is "not" taken from endangered animals. Trees are rapidly vanishing off the planet as well as lots else! Ethically we should be playing Carbon Fiber Guitars! Are we! No! I really tried to word my last post benignly so I didn't set of a political dispute. However, I do want to respond to your post above: - just because ivory was gathered before the trade ban doesn't mean that it was gathered ethically. The ban was effected because at the time the elephant population had been decimated by ivory hunters. - the only way to get elephant ivory is to kill an elephant; now, 30 years ago, whenever. - Any time additional consumer demand is created for elephant ivory, it creates the incentive for poachers to collect the ivory illegally. This is evidenced by the fact that despite the ban, elephant poaching is still a huge problem in Africa. These are the (more-or-less) indisputable facts. I'm not asking you or anyone else to feel guilty about them; that's up to you. I am saying that everybody has a responsibility to evaluate their own actions and determine what they think is ethical. For me, given the information at my disposal, I think using elephant ivory in any way, or making internet posts that incite others to use it, is unethical without clear evidence that there is no suitable substitute. If you can provide me with some science, facts or evidence to convince me otherwise I'm glad to hear it. The original post contends that elephant ivory is a superior material for guitar saddles. The research deserves scrutiny, especially in light of a potential ethical concern. My main challenge is that the research posted cannot be used to infer whether elephant ivory is any better of a material for a guitar saddle than available alternatives. And yes, the same ethical concerns should be considered in light of scarce woods like mahogany and brazilian rosewood. This may be an entirely different discussion. For me, I am more easily convinced that the available substitutes are not as suitable for the design purpose. I am a woodworker and I know that african mahogany behaves quite differently from honduras mahogany; likewise with the available rosewoods. I'm not calling you a bad person for playing nice guitars; I just think that it's something we should think about as guitarists. And FWIW- I used to own a Rainsong, and it was an awesome instrument. It did sound very different from a wood guitar but I liked it for what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 One of my favorite is a recently purchased plastic/aluminum Academy. I have a quandary because on one hand, no wood was used except for the bridge.... but it was made with plastic that is petroleum based (I assume.... could be way wrong!). So I can't get all "Im saving Mother Earth" about it because it's maybe no better from an ecological standpoint and maybe worse, who knows? I have access to aerial photos of my county from selected years ranging from 1938, 1947 up to the digital orthoimagery from very recent years. I look at what used to be cropland in some of the smaller towns and how it has dwindled and I'm almost sick. What once was productive farmland has grown up to friggin' alders and dogwood. And yet right next to it is woodland that welll.... maybe hasn't been CLEARcut but has been raped pretty hard. I'm not a tree hugger, nor am I a capitalist farmer, I'm not even a land baron, what with my 2 acres of wooded hydric soil, 1/2 acre of which has been filled since 1959 to make a crappy lawn, but I get all upset when I compare those old maps to what's going on today. And the people who took years out of their lives to clear that ground in the 1800s for cropland and also managed their wood lots for sustainability are spinning in their graves. At least the windmills are coming. Capitalism meets hippie wind power! Now if we could find a market for the dogwood and alders so we could clear some of that marginal cropland and figure out how to make stove pellets out of sudan grass I'd be sparkin' up my Farmall and going to work at something worthwhile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Now if we could find a market for the ...alders so we could clear some of that marginal cropland... I'm sure Fender could turn 'em into some Telecasters. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil C. Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Thank you all for the discussion on saddle material, which I found most enlightening. I just fabricated a Tusq saddle to replace the Tune-O-Matic on my 1964 Dove. The improvement in volume and sustain is considerable. I have a question regarding the role the thickness of the saddle material plays on its ability/effect on the propagation of vibration into the soundboard. It is currently 0.425" wide at its base, fitting snugly in the bridge slot milled for the TOM. It is of course machined to 6 points of contact at the places required for intonation. What result can I expect by thinning the saddle material between the bridge and the points of string contact? I have an idea that removing mass may improve high frequency transmission, but the Dove is already marginal on low frequencies for my taste. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburude63 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 No [-X [-X Elephants were killed in the making of this thread!~ suburude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 No :- [-X [-X Elephants were killed in the making of this thread!~ suburude Damn. And I was all set for an elephant stew. I even baked up a mess of homemade buttermilk biscuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil C. Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Thank you, folks, for all the help with my question. I can tell I've already taken up more of your time than was necessary, so I'll just scratch this forum off as a bad experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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