jchabalk Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I've wondered about this for a little while and am finally in a situation where i need to figure it out. I have 2 acoustic guitars that i play regularly (daily or so for each). I've got a 3rd that's about to enter heavy rotation now that i've figured out what i haven't liked about it. My 2 guitars are set up pretty similarly. I play up through the 12th fret or so and they both feel pretty similar to me while i'm playing. I've measured the action and it's about exactly the same through that range on both guitars. The action on my other one is way higher. (I use the stew-mac action ruler thing - small rectangular metal measuring stick with different scales on each side in 1/64 increments) I'm going to take it into my local neighborhood repair shop to get fixed up and i was wondering if there are any measurements i should be bringing in with me for them to match up other than action at the nut and action at the 12th fret (those are the one's i've typically used). I've read about capo'ing at the first fret and then measuring action at the 7th fret (to check neck relief?) Can anyone give me some advice on what else i would need to measure? Or point me towards a link that contains reputable information about this? I've seen a bunch and some of them offer quite different suggestions. thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 The easiest way would be to bring one (or both) of the other guitars with you and let the repair person measure; that way there's no miscommunication or misinterpretation. I don't mean that in a bad way, it would just eliminate any chance of it. But anyway, to measure neck relief, capo at the first fret, hold down the string(s) at wherever the board meets the body (14th fret usually) and measure the space between the 7th fret and the string(s) with a feeler gauge. There is no optimum setting; there are too many varibles: scale length, string gauge, playing style... the goal here is to have a basis for comparison to your other guitars, and that can even be thrown out the window if the guitar to be adjusted has different characteristics from the other two. (Side note: my own highly UNscientific method is to simply sight down the neck, tweak the rod for the absolute minimum amout of relief I can see, then play it. If it buzzes in the lower frets, I back the rod off a tish. But that's just me and that method might not work for others....) As to string height, I typically just measure at the 12th fret but some people capo at the first fret before taking the 12th fret measurement. That's fine because it will remove the nut height from the equation.... as long as you're measuring all of them in the same manner , you'll be consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 ALAPWOB As Low As Possible WithOut Buzzing. That is with as flat a neck as possible (just a little relief) and the nut slots ALAPWOB at the first fret. Check the nut height first by pressing down on each string in sequence at the third fret (creates a straight line from the second fret to the nut) and check the clearance from the bottom of the string to the top of the first fret. I do this by eye and look for a hair's clearance - tap on the top of the string over the first fret and you'll hear a click of the string bouncing down on the top of the fret. The as ksdaddy said, capo at the first and hold the low E down at the 14 (or 12th if a 12 fretter) and check for relief with a feeler gauge. I like this to be quite low as well like .010". Then the tricky part is to sneak up on the saddle height bit by bit. If you go too low you're going to have to get a new saddle (I hate shims). With the guitar setup as above FIRST, I decide a HIGH action like 7/64" bass and 6/64" (3/32") treble side. I'll play that for a while. If that HIGH action buzzes at all I'll introduce a 1/4 turn of relief into the neck. If it doesn't buzz, I'll lower it to 6/64" bass and 5/64" treble. Then play it for a while. If it buzzes I'll do the 1/4 turn introduction of relief. In between 1/4 turns, leave it over night for the neck to settle. Then play it for a couple of hours. This is how I sneak up on ALAPWOB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 Thanks for the info guys - i just measured both the guitar with the JUA (Jacked Up Action) and the one with BPA (Bloody Perfect Action) The guitar with BPA has lower action at both the 1st fret and the 12th and has enough relief to just slide a sheet of notebook paper under the 7th with the 1st and 14th fretted, the paper rubbed a little) (~.020 at the 1st, ~.080 at the 12th) The guitar with JUA has higher action on 12but about exactly the same relief. When i play up the neck on the JUA guitar there's all sorts of buzzing happening from behind the fretted note. (~.020 at the 1st, ~.110 at the 12th) If i fret play an E (12th fret of the low-E string) on the JUA guitar it buzzes. If i play that same note and dampen the string at the 7th (or anywhere behind the 12th) fret there's no buzzing. So something's.. well.. jacked. When i got this guitar it had what appeared to be a pretty large amount of exposed saddle and generally poor action. It was set up for mediums and i just never was really able to have strong feelings for it. I changed them out to 12s and i'm loving it now (aside from the action up the neck and buzzing). Anyway - i'm sure the shop will be able to fix it up right for me, thanks for the help! i'll report back in a little while with the final outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If it was setup to play with mediums and you're playing with lights, then there is probably too little relief in the neck as the strings are not providing the same tension as the mediums were... so the neck will settle back (back bow). Give the truss rod a 1/4 turn counterclockwise to loosen it slightly and leave it overnight. See if that removes the buzz. If not, give it another 1/4 turn and check again the next day. It certainly sounds like it is reacting to back bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 I was able to bring the guitar in late last week and have the action lowered a little. The action's in good shape now but i think i've got another problem in that the break angle of the strings over the saddle is very shallow now that the bridge is lowered some. This is shaping up to be a never-ending quest :P So i made some pictures here that may help. I've got this J45 (that they set up for me also) that's my favorite guitar. The action is perfect for what i want, it sounds and plays great. I was looking at it a little bit ago and its got a much steeper break angle over the saddle than my SJ200. My SJ200 - which is the one i'm trying to get right - was playing great but just with action that was too high for my liking. Since the actions been dropped (by lowering the saddle) the guitar sounds kind of mushy - the definition's not there the way it used to be. The strings also feel... loose? It's hard to describe, but i feel like they're really easy to bend, and when i strum it feel really easy too attack way too hard. Kind of like if you hold a heavy pick really hard and beat the hell out of the guitar. It sounds and feels like that when i'm just kind of playing normally. Anyway - i'll probably end up having to bring both guitars in and seeing if they can match the two of them up. Here are some pictures of both saddle break angles. The action and break angle at the nut is rather identical on each. Do you think i'm on the right track? From what i've been able to figure out the only real solution to this is probably to play with higher action or reset the neck? J-45 - This guitar plays exactly the way i want: SJ-200 - This guitar plays sloppy, doesn't feel right: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 The break angle over the saddle on the 200 is very poor. You might be able to cut ramps but you are somewhat limited by the inlay in front of the holes where the strings come out. May need a neck reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 The problem is very likely the low angle of break over the saddle, as Jerry said. Ramps can be cut into the MOP inlay without trouble. Mine is done this way..... The low break angle will make the strings feel softer under the fingers, reduce volume and sustain and give the guitar an overall "mushy" feel as you mentioned. It can be made right. (ps..... I see you use those "condom" strings!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 thanks guys, i'm glad that that's what it sounds like it is! now i've finally identified the problem i've been confused about for a while!! i hope it doesn't come to this, but a neck reset... is that something that gibson covers usually on a new guitar? i'm fearing they'll want me to ship to bozeman if that's the case. And is it noticeable after it's done? Can you see breaks in the nitro around the neck? buc - i do use them, i switched over maybe 8 months ago or so from d'addarios cause they kept getting real grimy after just a month or so. i'm not completely sold on them though. I do like the fact that they sound pretty consistent from day 1. when i was using non coated strings they also sound super bright when they're brand new and super dead when they get too old with a sweet spot that was shorter than i wanted. i've been tempted to try to john pearse strings - i keep hearing good things.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I would not want to ramp into a MOP inlay. A newer guitar should not have a neck angle such that getting proper action causes low break angle over the saddle. If that is the case, then the guitar should be made right by the manufacturer IMO. Yes, you'll eventually get into these problems when the guitar ages... but that shouldn't happen for a decade or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 this is quite fitting actually - this guitar is the warranty replacement of a guitar i bought and several months later had sent to bozeman for warranty work. that guitar didn't survive and they built this one for me. the saga continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 this is quite fitting actually - this guitar is the warranty replacement of a guitar i bought and several months later had sent to bozeman for warranty work. that guitar didn't survive and they built this one for me. the saga continues! Do a neck angle check on it. Lay a straight edge on edge along your fretboard and see where it lines up against the top of your bridge. If the neck angle is good' date=' the straight edge should run just over the top of the bridge or just touch the very top of the bridge while in contact with the top of the frets all the way along the fretboard. Like this: [img']http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/drathbun/Linked%20Photos/DSCF1495.jpg[/img] If the straight edge point to the middle or the lower part of the bridge, you're in neck reset territory. If it is a new guitar, it should be reset for you at no charge IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Yikes - so i did what you said. i don't have the perfect straight-edge for measuring the difference, but it ended up hitting the bridge about 1/8" below the top of the bridge, possibly a little more. Looks like i've got to prepare for the inevitable :- Here's a pic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Yeah I'd say that's a bit low for a new guitar. Once a low action is set, there is nowhere to go once the neck starts to settle after years of playing. With a guitar with an ordinary bridge, you'd probably get away with this neck angle. However, with the moustache bridge which has the pins a good distance from the saddle and MOP inlays between the pins and the saddle, you don't have any leeway other than cut string ramps through the MOP or reset the neck. BTW? You an engineer? I see an engineer's scale rule there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 i just got home tonight and checked my other 2 guitars, they're both in good shape. My J45 is darn near perfect, i actually can't believe how accurate it is. a straight-edge along the frets perfectly lies on the top of the bridge with no gap or rubbing. that guitar is my favorite for the way it sounds and plays, i guess this is one of the reasons. This SJ-200 was built in October 2008, i got it at thanksgiving so it's only 5-6 months old.. i'm going to take it into the shop later this week or this weekend and figure out what we should do with it. Given the angle (or lack of angle) i think they'd have to cut pretty deep ramps into the MOP to get it right. I don't really mind that so much, but if that's the best it's going to get it doesn't bode well for the future. i'll let you guys know what happens with it, thanks a lot for the advice and help! drathbun - i am sort of an engineer but not one that uses scale rulers often. i design computer infrastructures. i use that ruler and other such things for getting in over my head on various projects at home (electronic and otherwise) during the evenings and weekends :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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