Help me decide between coil-tap LP mod or "Franken-telecaster" project

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

***EDIT: I have posted this same exact question on other message boards and have been told this was too long to follow. I posted a short-hand version on that forum and have copied it in on this a couple posts down. Feel free to just skip to the short one first, and if it leaves anything unanswered for you, just come back and cross reference this longer version. Thanks!***

 

I want to say thanks in advance for anyone who reads this, and then votes and/or posts (there's an awful lot here, I know). I'm stuck between two basic courses of action, modding a les paul with coil tap for the ability to go single coil or humbucker, and abandoning a "franken-telecaster" project that I'm not very far into, or pressing on with the telecaster, and leaving the les paul stock. And I can see about 9 different ways to approach this dilemma. I'll say right off the bat that I'm strongly favoring modding the paul, but there may be some very weighty objections to that approach that I may not be considering that you guys may be able to illuminate for me.

 

First, just a little background to better frame why I'm asking the question. Feel free to skip this portion (indicated by ---) and get right to the question, but if you slog through it, I think it'll help you make a more informed decision, and make some of the otherwise potentially confusing nuances in my question make more sense (I would prefer you read the backstory, but don't feel obligated) :

 

__________________________________________________

 

I have a 2008 Gibson Studio Vintage Mahogany (Les Paul, of course) and I love it, but I thought it'd be nice to have, say, a Telecaster to go alongside it so that I could have the diversity of both single coil and humbucker sounds.

 

Within the past year, I have bought the Gibson, an American Standard Fender Jazz Bass, and a used circa 1999 japanese made Yamaha TRB 5IIF active fretless 5-string bass (probably about $1200, maybe $1300 when it was new), trading in all my Mexican Fender, and Epiphone gear in the process (about 7 instruments total) and so, not only did I feel like I had spent too much in too short a time, but so did my wife, close friends, and other family (mom, dad, brother, etc) and they asked me to promise I wouldn't go out and buy another guitar, at least for quite some time. I had no problem agreeing to this, as the whole point of doing this was to have a few really nice guitars so that I wouldn't need to go out and buy more.

 

But while I love humbuckers, and easily prefer them over single coils, I did begin to sense their limitations relative to single coils, and so I thought I would like to find a way to get something that'd work. Well, I had an old teisco tulip guitar and an extra pickguard for it (since all the electronics were mounted into the pickguard) and so I scored me a set of American Standard Fender Tele pickups and an American Standard Strat middle position pickup, and had the Teisco modded. At first blush, I kinda dug it, cause I could hear the similarities between it and a real tele, but really quick, that faded,and all that I could notice was the dissimilarities...in other words, it was a failed experiment. My dad had said, go out and get yourself a Tele neck and a Tele body, and build yourself a Tele. These pickups are just too good for this junk body.

 

Okay, so that was the plan. I knew if I were going to do this, I should make it worth my while, so I wasn't going to mess with squier, probably was going to stay away from mexican fender, and probably from any 3rd party people. In other words, I was looking for some American made fender stuff. But all the necks and bodies I could find on e-bay were all between $350-$450 a piece, so $700-$900 total on just the neck and body and then there's the bridge, the nut, etc, and all the misc electronics. All told, I'm looking at paying about the same price as if I just went out and bought an Am Std Tele right off the shelf.

 

Well, I was in the guitar center the other day just messing around and I got to try out the Gibson Les Paul Trad Pro, which has...coil tap! I fell in love with the tapped coil (read: single coil) sound out of the Les Paul, and especially the ability to do HH, SS, SH, or HS.

 

I spent about 3 hours going back and forth between the LP in SS mode and an Am Std Tele, and for the most part I thought the LP sounded better. Plus, I am definitely convinced (as subjective as this may be) that the LP both looks and feels better than the tele.

 

Plus, I was really excited about being able to do the work of two guitars (HH, SS), four really (HS, SH) in just one guitar. I learned my lesson back in the MIM Fender/Epi days that having a whole bunch of guitars is not necessarily a great thing, and if I could do the work of a Tele and a LP on just my LP, that sounds great!

 

Later, I discovered "Jimmy Page wiring" on a youtube video, and the idea of adding phase in/out, and parallel/series is an even more intriguing option. As an alternative, I know Seymour Duncan has a triple shot pickup ring where I could do all but the phase option right there at the pickup (though I'd be worried about the bulged ring impacting playability, and cosmetics, plus not being the easiest to toggle mid-riff)

 

However, not everybody has thought this mod idea to be as brilliant as I have. Both my father, and father-in-law, both seasoned guitarists of decades and decades, and one of which, a Les Paul owner say it's a terrible idea to mod the Les Paul:

 

Reason 1: it's too nice, and too expensive a guitar to be "chopping up" (even though mine's only the $800 model, which while certainly not "chump change" is also not paralyzingly oppressive. It's no $3000 jobbie I'd be tinkering with).

 

Reason 2: They say that even if I make absolutely no body mods, and keep all the original everything, and make the mod -totally- reversible, that it still will never be the same guitar again. They say that if I start taking stuff out, even if I put it back exactly the same way, it still wont be quite the same. They say that no matter what I do, I'll never be able to truly go back.

 

I don't see how that could be, unless they're thinking of soldering joints, but my LP is a circuit board, so I really could return it to spec. The only thing I may not be able to revert to spec would be I'd have to convert 2 conductor pickups to 4 conductor, and how would it work if I wanted to revert them back later, I suppose for added cost, I could leave my pups alone, take them out, buy another set of burstbuckers expressly for the purpose of converting them, and then I have my unmodded originals to include in the restore if I ever restored it.

 

But the fact that they both said the same thing without even talking to each other, makes a compelling case. I'm not sure if it's compelling enough to stop me, but now I do have a reasonable case against modding it, and a compelling reason to start branching out and trying to find some more opinions abroad as to whether this is wise or foolish.

__________________________________________________

 

So, the way I see it, I have really 9 options, which are variants of two basic possible course of action (mod the paul and abandon the tele, or go for the tele and leave the paul alone) Please help me out here. Should I:

 

A) keep the Les Paul "virgin" at all costs, go ahead, bite the bullet, and keep the plan to build myself a "franken-tele", keeping my word, if only by technicality, to not go out and just buy an all-new guitar (even though the franken-project would cost almost or even as much, possibly even more).

 

keep the Les Paul "virgin" but explain to my friends and family that it would cost me equal or less to just go buy an Am Std (or even Highway 1) Telecaster than to do the "franken-tele" and that it'd also be a safer bet, with a surer product and a higher resale value

 

C) Jimmy Page the paul, feeling comfortable to mod the burstbuckers already in there to 4 conductor, and only end up spending like $150 all told for the mod, parts, and labor)

 

D) Jimmy Page it, but snag a new set of burstbuckers so you can keep your original untouched in case you want to revert, but adding about $200 to the project.

 

E) Seymour Duncan mod it, modding the pickups

 

F) Seymour Duncan it, getting a new set of pickups to mod

 

G) Mod the LP, but by some other means (please specify method)

 

H) Go the frankencaster route, leaving the LP alone, but go for cheaper body parts (either lower quality or comparable quality 3rd party) (please specify)

 

I) Neither. Go buy X guitar (please specify X)

 

(It'd be important to note that with any of these options except for the franken-tele approach (so, any option other than A or H), I can actually sell the tele/strat pups that I have to help offset the cost, and if I do that, and then go, say, option C, I may only end up having to shell like $50-75 out of pocket ultimately)

 

(It's also important to note that this is also a debate over which kind of diversity of tone is more important. Is it more important to have a guitar that's alder/maple/maple/bolt-on that has actual fender tele pups in it -and- a guitar that's mahogany/mahogany/rosewood/set neck that has actual gibson humbuckers in it and not have any sort of HS/SH options, and not have any sort of phase or series/parallel options -or- is it more important to have a guitar that can do SS/HH/SH/HS/phase/and series-parallel that is mahogany/mahogany/rosewood/set neck whose SS sounds reasonably similar to a tele but is not quite the same? Which is the more important style of diversity of tone to have? That's what this really ultimately comes down to. I've got to admit, I'm leaning towards the second kind of diversity being the more important and the more versatile. And the fact that it'd only take one guitar to do the work of two-four guitars and looks and feels as good as a Gibson Les Paul…that's awfully compelling, especially considering I think I actually like the sound of the SS paul a little better than the sound of the tele, and definitely like the looks and feel better!)

 

Alright guys, once again, I appreciate the read, and the input (via vote and via post). Thanks very much for taking the time (there was a lot here!)

 

God Bless!

[dem00n]

Tele...

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

Just to clarify:

 

I do not mean to imply that the tele and the coil tapped paul sound the same. They don't. But for my purposes, and to my ear, they do sound similar enough that I can live with the differences...indeed, on first blush, I think the coil tapped Paul sounds -better- than the tele. I also didn't mean to imply that it's a tele sound that I specifically -must- have, but rather, a single coil sound is what I'm after, it's just that among the single coil options out there, the Tele was always my favorite...and now that I've played the coil-tapped paul, I can't even say with certainty that that's true any longer. I had heard of coil tap, understood the basic concept of it, but the genius of it was totally lost on me. Now that I've messed with it first hand, it has totally revolutionized the way I look at the quest for single coil sounds.

 

Plus, I would be able to do all that I want to do, and then some (HS/SH/phase, etc) in just one guitar, vs not being able to do that stuff and even what I can do, not be able to do it in just one guitar, but keep having to put one down and pick one up, and so on and so forth, plus have to lug two guitars around and double the risk of damage and loss. The only advantages to having the tele, one practical, and one not, would be a) having a slightly broader range of "personalities", and being able to say I'm in the Les Paul club, -and- the Telecaster club. But I would do it at the cost of a broader range of "features", and I'm almost wondering if that is the more important thing.

 

The only real hesitation I have on modding the paul is what my father and father-in-law say that there's no way to ever truly revert a guitar once you've modded it. I'm not even sure that's true, and if it is true, I'm not even sure that'd stop me, but that is still something that is worth heavy consideration. Would you say they are right?

 

Thanks!

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

***Note: this is a short-hand version of the same question which was in response to people on another thread saying the first post was too long (which, I'll admit) :) I copied it over just in case anybody here was having the same issue and just being too polite to speak up. :D. Thanks guys!***

 

Yeah, I find myself writing longer things than I intend to sometimes. I'm told I write like a puritan, attending to every little caveat and nuance. The pastorate, Lord willing, is my end game, and so this will likely be a benefit to me in that office, especially when the discussion turns to finer points of theology...but methinks in the message board medium it's probably not exactly a virtue, eh?

 

Okay, let me try to give you a radically simplified "fly-over" rendition, and then you can simply cross reference the original super-long version to fill in any blank spots this summary creates:

 

I have a Gibson Les Paul and I have a set of American Standard Telecaster pickups that are currently sitting in a Teisco body as a failed experiment. I like the sound of the telecaster. I have long said it is my favorite guitar with single coil pickups in it. But what I'm after is not necessarily the telecaster sound, but just a way to have single coil pickups available for me to use without having to buy a whole new guitar. Now, I tried the coil-tapped Gibson Les Paul the other day and thought it was the bomb! I liked it -at least- as much, if not -more- than the American Telecaster.

 

Okay, that's the wind up, here's the pitch:

 

I can either modify my Les Paul to support coil-tap (and phase and series/parallel whiile I'm at it) and sell of the tele pickups I have to offset the cost of this mod.

 

-or-

 

I can press on with the original plan which was "frankentele", if you will. I go out on ebay get a MIA Fender Tele neck, go out and get a Fender Tele body, all the miscellaneous hardware and electronics, and build me a telecaster around the pickups (the pickups being the only thing I have)

 

Advantages of going for the tele: I get a little more diversity of tone by having Fender tele pups and Gibson humbuckers in two guitars that are made of different types of woods and are even constructed differently (bolt on straight neck vs. set neck that leans back towards my body), and I get the distinction of not only saying: "I'm in the Les Paul club", but also "I'm in the Telecaster club" too (for what that's worth)

 

Advantages of going for the LP mod: I not only can do HH or SS like I could with the LP and the Tele, but can also do HS, or SH (which I have found to be useful configurations, HS for clean and SH for dirty!) plus, I can do neat tricks like phase and series/parallel. And I can do it all in just one guitar, so I don't have to keep picking up and setting down guitars, and so I don't have to lug two guitars around with me if I were to go to a jam session or if I were asked to play, which cuts in half my risk of loss, damage, or theft. The LP in single coil mode doesn't sound the same as a tele, but it's a reasonable substitute, and to be honest, I think I like the sound of it -better- than the tele.

 

I'm almost entirely sold on the LP mod, but I wanted to make sure there weren't any exceedingly weighty reasons why I may want to reconsider. I've been told that even if I save all the old hardware, wiring and everything from the stock configuration, and even if I put it back exactly the way it was, it still won't be quite the same guitar ever again. I don't know if that's even true, and even if it is, I don't know that that would stop me...but that's the only serious consideration against it that I've heard so far. The only one that gives me pause. Are there any other reasons why I shouldn't do it?

 

If I were to be completely honest, I'm looking to do the mod, and simply giving you all the chance to talk me out of it if there's a good enough reason. I'm giving you guys the chance to help keep me from "pitching off a cliff", if you will. Am I in any danger?

 

I hope that was simplified enough and brief enough, guys! :-)

 

Sorry for my "mega-post" there! Hoping to hear back soon with more feedback from the crowd! :-)

[recsec]

I like the Franken-Tele option for the simple reason that it will be built to your specifications.

I have a double humbucker Tele with a coil tap for the Bridge and it rocks, can play some sweet Blues as well as "Twang" like only a Tele can.

[djroge1]

Yes if you mod the LP then there is a strong argument for "it can never truly go back to original" but I have 2 thoughts about that.

 

1. If it was a classic guitar - for example a '59 LP I would never mod it. However, a 2008 studio is not. Could it one day be considered a modern "holy grail" guitar. Sure and the Pope could one day be a practicing Jew too I guess? Anything is possible.

 

2. If you truly plan to keep the guitar (hard to know as a lot of people like to always trade) then go ahead and mod it.

 

I have this mod on my '78 LP and I'm happy I did it. But I also modded this LP out way back around 1980 or so in other ways so I was past the point of no return on the modding.

 

I voted mod the LP. Of course I would also hold on to those tele pups and eventually build one to your specs.

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

dj: thanks for the input on that, sir! That is very helpful!

 

Help me to understand how, if I do absolutely no body mods, keep the original pickups unmodded, just get a 2nd set to mod and pop, set the old ones aside with all the hardware, which is the circuit board version anyway, so not a lot of solder joints to worry about, then I don't see how it could sound different going back in than it did coming out. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that's a mystery to me. How could that be? Could you help flesh that out for me?

 

Also, if I'm sold on burstbuckers, but all burstbuckers are 2 conductor by default, I'm sure that it can be modded to four conductor, and then, of course, I'm sure it could be modded back, but would that whole process of mod/revert permanently change the character of the pickups? If it is certain not to have an impact, then it'd save me some money just to mod my own existing burstbuckers, and revert them later if I so choose. But if it definitely will have an impact, or even runs a reasonably good chance of changing them permanently, then it'd seem meet to me to leave these pups unmodded, get a second pair to butcher, and just do the ol' swap.

 

But then again, if the sound will never be the same again whether I touch the pups or no, then it may not matter, and I may as well go the cheaper route. Thoughts?

[Cruznolfart]

the Pope could one day be a practicing Jew too I guess? Anything is possible.

 

 

 

I had no idea Jews had to practice. I have much to learn.

[djroge1]

You ask many questions... that's a good thing though. But let me address Cruzn's statement first:

 

I had no idea Jews had to practice. I have much to learn.

 

Jew's by birth - nationality

Jewish religion - practicing the religion of Judaism.

 

Not every Jew practices the Judaism and in fact some Jews follow other religions. For example a Messianic Jew believes that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Other Jews may completley follow the protestant form of Christianity and of course there may be Jews who practice hinduism and others.

 

dj: thanks for the input on that' date=' sir! That is very helpful!

 

Help me to understand how, if I do absolutely no body mods, keep the original pickups unmodded, just get a 2nd set to mod and pop, set the old ones aside with all the hardware, which is the circuit board version anyway, so not a lot of solder joints to worry about, then I don't see how it could sound different going back in than it did coming out. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that's a mystery to me. How could that be? Could you help flesh that out for me?

 

Also, if I'm sold on burstbuckers, but all burstbuckers are 2 conductor by default, I'm sure that it can be modded to four conductor, and then, of course, I'm sure it could be modded back, but would that whole process of mod/revert permanently change the character of the pickups? If it is certain not to have an impact, then it'd save me some money just to mod my own existing burstbuckers, and revert them later if I so choose. But if it definitely will have an impact, or even runs a reasonably good chance of changing them permanently, then it'd seem meet to me to leave these pups unmodded, get a second pair to butcher, and just do the ol' swap.

 

But then again, if the sound will never be the same again whether I touch the pups or no, then it may not matter, and I may as well go the cheaper route. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

First let me say that I've never worked on a newer LP with the circuit boards so until I know how the connections are made I cannot give the best answer. However, looking at an Old School LP with simple pots, wire, switches, and solder the idea is that it will never be "original" if the original solder has been de-soldered. If you mod it (de-solder it) and then later decide to restore it back to "original" ~ a purist will tell you that it cannot be "completly original" because the original solder is gone. Sounds a little to picky to me.

 

As for your burstbuckers being 2 conductor... yes you can have them modded to be 4 conductor. I've never done that nor do I think I want to ~ it just sounds like too much work when another pup is already made that way. I cannot answer if modding them and reverting them back would make a difference in sound.

 

Personally, I generally like DiMarzio pups and most if not all of their humbuckers are 4 wire. Perhaps you should look for a DiMarzio or Seymour Duncan that is similar to burstbuckers and install them? It's just a thought and it would probably be cheaper than converting a 2 conductor pup to 4 (that's a guess as I have no clue how much it would cost).

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

dj: thank you yet again! :-)

 

in answer to the modded burstbuckers: I've been told to expect $35-$45 per pickup for the mod, but I'm waiting on the exact price. If I buy new burstbuckers and then turn around and mod them, I can add $110 to the price (x2) and then of course, I'm gonna need the four push/pull pots regardless.

 

in answer to the "why not do dimarzio or seymour dunan" thing: I know this may seem a little ironic coming from someone who's just singing about modding their guitar, but I want to keep it to gibson pickups. I don't want to go third party. Not that those 3rd party pickups aren't good. Many would argue that they're even better, but still, if I'm gonna "wander from home", as it were, I don't want to wander far, and as for the pickups, I wanna "keep it in the family." Know what I mean?

 

in answer to the "you can't truly go back": yeah, I figured that that was the only thing that really could change. Unless someone was going to try and posit (and it might be right, though I can't see how) that the wood itself actually acclimates itself to the new electronics and never can fully revert once it's adapted, then the only thing I could see making a difference would be the solder. Actually, all the connections on the circuit board are snap-in connectors, the components which are integrated into the board are soldered into the board, but none of those connections will be messed with. The only connections that are truly solder connections are the connections at the pickup selector switch, otherwise, it's all snap in. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me to assume that if I pulled out -everything- including the pickups -and- the selector switch and -all- the wiring going between them, and just used all new wiring for everything and a different set of burstbuckers which have been modded, then a "perfect" restore would be conceivable, and not only conceivable, but reasonably easy to pull off.

 

Okay, that makes me feel much better! :-)

 

Thanks!

[max2343]

Man I didn't read much but I did get that you start **** and don't finish.

 

Try and finish what you Start and try and organize your time and efforts

 

into getting Satifaction into a finished Idea.

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

mmmm, I don't know that that's necessarily the case, Max (although you are right that my posts are too long) :D

 

I could still finish with the tele mod. The reason I'm thinking that's not such a good idea though is because it'd cost me a lot more money ($150-$300 is a significant expense for me, and $800 is even more difficult) and even more important, I like the sound/feel/flexibility that the $300 mod would get me -better- than the sound/feel/diversity that the $800-$1000 frankenguitar would. So, why would I spend over 200% for an option that I don't even like as well?

 

It seems like simple logic to me, with an increasingly obvious conclusion.

 

So, to go along with the not starting what I finish thing, resolve and focus are certainly admirable traits, but when you see you're off course, and -don't- change your direction, suddenly they're not called resolution and focus anymore, but foolishness and stubbornness, and those aren't so noble.

 

The only reason I've even brought this up was to make sure there wasn't some really serious reason why I should not mod the paul, and so far, it doesn't really seem like there is. If there are no unforeseen roadblocks on this road, then I think it's the road for me. Are there any major issues that haven't yet been discussed, that I should know about, max? I'd appreciate your input.

 

Thanks!