Who makes the best P90 PU's?

[Ricochet]

Is this how it SHOULD sound? The SG has plastic covered soaps' date=' and the Wildkat metalic covered dogears. Is the metalic cover playing into this, or is it the Alnico V magnets? What is the technical difference between the 2 PU's?

 

[/quote']

 

Different attitude. Gibson uses quality parts to make the best P90. Epiphone uses the cheapest parts to make something that resembles a Gibson P90 best.

The wire, magnet, PU-covers, guitar construction are all different, and it all adds up.

[Gashole]

I had my Natural Casino's p-90s rewound by Lindy Fralin and they are pretty amazing.

 

I have a black Casino' date=' and I put Kent Armstrong P-90s in... and... I am going to replace them with the original pups rewound by Fralin.

 

The Armstrongs are ok, but not that much better really than what the casino came with. So to me, it wasn't worth doing. Plus... they are made in Korea, but for some reason... DON'T FIT! There are gaps! UGHH! I was so annoyed at this... at least it should fit on the guitar![/quote']

 

 

This must have something to do w/ the earlier mentioned "production rift"... I was reading where they(Armstrong's) are made in Va. Guess not anymore, eh? Bet the factory switch is where the problem lies. WELL...leaning away from Armstrong's now. Will check out the Fralin's. Thanks

[Gashole]

 

Different attitude. Gibson uses quality parts to make the best P90. Epiphone uses the cheapest parts to make something that resembles a Gibson P90 best.

The wire' date=' magnet, PU-covers, guitar construction are all different, and it all adds up.[/quote']

 

It adds up to PU replacement, that's for sure. I'm just too damn fussy. I hope nobody misunderstands- the Wildkat stockers are NOT horrible or anything like that. That subtle, yet nasally breakup is just bugging the hell out of me now that I'm keyed in to it, and have Gib P90's to compare it with.

 

I'm good w/ a different tone due to body construction-and desire that. But I gotta have the highest quality sound I can get out of any of my guitars, or they will end up sitting around collecting dust. That WIldkat is too much fun to play; can't have it be sitting around just 'cos I have some Gibson's too! It has to be brought up to "par".

 

Too damn fussy. :D

[carverman]

Just like the subject line says. I'm collecting opinions.

 

 

Is this how it SHOULD sound? The SG has plastic covered soaps' date=' and the Wildkat metalic covered dogears. Is the metalic cover playing into this, or is it the Alnico V magnets? What is the technical difference between the 2 PU's? Or am I not seeing the trees for the forest and it's the body design that causes this? My other 2 archtops are humbucking, but they don't behave that way with the Blues Driver either, so I'm not thinking that's the culprit, even though its apples and oranges in a way. My gut is telling me it's the magnets.

 

Enlighten me, please.[/quote']

 

Yes, it is the magnets and the way the Gibson P-90 is constructed.

Gibson used to get their M-55 AlNiCo III magnets from GE (General Electric)

because of the higher magnetic strength , which also resulted in higher output.

The Gibson version has TWO magnets placed opposite to each other in

underneath the coil (magnetically opposed) , this gave the P90 that rich

and big powerful sound.

 

The metallic cover (usually non-magnetic brass) will reduce the output slightly.

Open coils with exposed pole pieces or even adjustable Alnico magnetic pole

pieces will yield higher output and less "muffled" tone.

 

The Classic 57 humbucker started off with AlNico II, III and IV .

The strength of the magnet and composition is different for each spec,

and these various strengths were used in their humbuckers in the 50s

and later. One popular combo is the the Alnico IV (4) for more

overall robust sound and high end. Around 1960, they came out with the Alnico

V (M56) magnet which was slightly shorter in size but stronger, so it had a better

brighter tone and higher output. Because the coils were wound at high speed

and didn't have auto shutoff on the winding counter, some were wound hot while

other were underwound which also produced variations in tone.

 

When Seth Lover went to work for SD, he may have brought some knowledge

of this with him.

[GlennW]

The Gibson version has TWO magnets placed opposite to each other in

underneath the coil (magnetically opposed) ' date=' this gave the P90 that rich

and big powerful sound.[/quote']

 

Just to avoid confusion, that's north facing north or south facing south.

[carverman]

 

Just to avoid confusion' date=' that's north facing north or south facing south. [/quote']

 

You had to ask that! I don't have the details on that..sorry. I got some of the P-90

and Humbucker info from a book by Robb Lawrence "The early years of the Les

Paul Legacy 1915-1963). In this book, there is some detail on Walter Fuller's P-90

and Seth Lover's humbucker. Gibson in those days got their Alnico magnets from

GE, because GE held a patent on them. The magnets are cast then magnetized

a special way for Gibson.

 

I don't know if other p_up manufacturers are privy to the magnetizing process that

Gibson specifies, since the cast magnetic material has to be heat treated first with

the magnetic particles aligned a certain way and then magnetized after.

 

Maybe it's a given in the pickup industry, but there is something to be said about their

process that makes Gibson pickups unique compared to the others.

It has to be more than just what us guitar players call "mojo".

 

(It's a bit like KD (Kraft Dinner), there are many manufacturers of "mac & cheese", but

not too many of them taste the same as the original KD...maybe it's the cheese powder..who

knows. ):-

 

Here's a link to an interview with the two pickup gurus themselves discussing

in detail construction and specifics..Seymour Duncan and Seth Lover.

 

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/seth.html

(For some reason, the url doesn't point to the interview..you may have to

type it in by hand).

[GlennW]

That wasn't a question. A P-90 has two bar magnets touching the bar for the pole screws.

 

Both magnets should have the same polarity facing the pole pieces. They could be north facing north, or south facing south.

 

It'll work with one N and one S, but it won't sound good.

 

I thought the term "magnetically opposed" might make someone think N and S.

[Ricochet]

Gibson in those days got their Alnico magnets from

GE' date=' because GE held a patent on them. The magnets are cast then magnetized

a special way for Gibson.

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/seth.html

[/quote']

 

I read that interview. Interestingly enough Seth Lover is quoted to say Gibson bought Alnicos from GE in the very beginning, but then from whoever could supply... You reckon it may have something to do with the differences in those old magical PAFs?

[rmcfee]

Can the plastic covers be bought separately?

[Ricochet]

Can the plastic covers be bought separately?

 

P90 soapbars or dogears? Sure, any colour as long as it's cream, black or chrome.

[carverman]

That wasn't a question. A P-90 has two bar magnets touching the bar for the pole screws.

 

Both magnets should have the same polarity facing the pole pieces. They could be north facing north' date=' or south facing south.

 

It'll work with one N and one S, but it won't sound good.

 

I thought the term "magnetically opposed" might make someone think N and S.

 

[/quote']

 

You are right. It's 2 magnets separated by a 1/4" wide steel strip about the same length

and thickness as the magnets. (This steel strip is tapped for the pole piece screws.)

 

The resultant magnetic force of these two magnets magnetizes the steel strings causing

them to be "permanently" magnetized, (well at least until the strings are changed)

which in turn causes the pickup coils to pick up those magnetic variations/vibrations

(based on the string guage) which then induces a very weak a/c signal in the coil(s).

This appears to be the main function of the bar magnet.

 

These bar magnets age with the magnetic strength gradually being reduced over the years.

This is the main reason that horseshoe magnets have "keepers", flat bars to

"keep" the magnetic fields from diminishing by forming a closed loop within the magnetic

field.

 

Magnets and magnetic fields are a science onto its own.

[rmcfee]

I was thinking of trying plastic dogears. Shimming the Epi chrome dogears made a huge difference in the sound. They are too low for my taste as set at the factory.

I am curious about other brands though.

[Gashole]

Thanks everybody.

 

I think I've decided on going w/ Gibson. I already know that I like them, and I'm expecting the SG and Wildkat to still retain seperate identities sonically due to their differing body construction.

 

So- should Gibson dogears drop right into the Kat? Or is there going to be some sort of finnessing that'll have to happen due to metric vs standard or whatever...

[carverman]

Thanks everybody.

 

I think I've decided on going w/ Gibson. I already know that I like them' date=' and I'm expecting the SG and Wildkat to still retain seperate identities sonically due to their differing body construction.

 

So- should Gibson dogears drop right into the Kat? Or is there going to be some sort of finnessing that'll have to happen due to metric vs standard or whatever...

[/quote']

Oh boy! You're going to have some fun there. The P-90 isn't exactly a drop in

for the humbucker.

 

Here's the sizes:

Humbucker (measured my Epiphone hbucker): 70mm L x 39mm W x 17mm H

(2-3/4"L x 1-1/2"W x 5/8" H)

 

P90 (dogear). ...................................................4-11/16"L x 1-5/8 W x 7/16 H

P90 (soapbar).................................................. 3-3/8 L x 1-3/8 W x 5/8 H

 

Hope this helps..not only will you need to route out holes for the soapbar,

but you will need new p_up rings for it too, as humbucker rings won't fit.

 

I think the dogear (might be) out of the question, because of fingerboard and bridge height

differences..but maybe somebody out there can comment on that for you.

 

EDIT: Here's some pickup specs based on an Epiphone '06 on line catalog:

 

Gibson p-94R alnico V output 7 pure p-90 tone in a humbucker sized package

(as used on Nick Valensi Riviera) 8.1k ohms 5.955H (h= coil value in henries)

 

Gibson p-94T alnico V output 7.5 pure p-90 tone in humbucker sized package

(as used on Nick Valensi Riviera) 9.1kohm 6.48 H.

 

Gibson P-90 alnico V? historic output 7 8.1k 6.433H (Lennon Casino)

 

Dogear P-90 alnico V classic output 7 8.8K 6.45H (Wildkat)

 

Soapbar P-90 alnico V classic output 7 8.8K 6.45H (56 Goldtop LP)

[Gashole]

Oh boy! You're going to have some fun there. The P-90 isn't exactly a drop in

for the humbucker.

 

Here's the sizes:

Humbucker (measured my Epiphone hbucker): 70mm L x 39mm W x 17mm H

(2-3/4"L x 1-1/2"W x 5/8" H)

 

P90 (dogear). ...................................................4-11/16"L x 1-5/8 W x 7/16 H

P90 (soapbar).................................................. 3-3/8 L x 1-3/8 W x 5/8 H

 

Hope this helps..not only will you need to route out holes for the soapbar' date='

but you will need new p_up rings for it too, as humbucker rings won't fit.

 

I think the dogear is out of the question, because of fingerboard and bridge height

differences..but maybe somebody out there can comment on that for you. [/quote']

 

 

Ooops...I might not have clarified-it's the Wildkat getting the replacement. I'm not thinking of putting the SG's soaps into it- rather, I want to buy 2 new Gib dogears to replace the Epi stock dogears in the Kat. But the Kat is designed metrically, right? And the Gib PU's more likely standard? (for us in the states at least it's "standard") That's why I'm wondering if the Gib dogears will drop in to the Wildkat's P90 PU cavities...are the dog ears from the same breed?

[carverman]

 

 

Ooops...I might not have clarified-it's the Wildkat getting the replacement. I'm not thinking of putting the SG's soaps into it- rather' date=' I want to buy 2 new Gib dogears to replace the Epi stock dogears in the Kat. But the Kat is designed metrically, right? And the Gib PU's more likely standard? (for us in the states at least it's "standard") That's why I'm wondering if the Gib dogears will drop in to the Wildkat's P90 PU cavities...are the dog ears from the same breed?

 

[/quote']

 

I don't have any dogears on my guitars to measure .

But my Epi and Gibson humbuckers are exactly the same measurements

(70mm L x 39mm W x 17mm H)

(Epi 57 Classic and Gibson 50ST USA humbucker on the Elitist Broadway)

Therefore, I would expect that the dogears would be the same size

but the inch measurements converted to millimeters.

[Gashole]

 

I don't have any dogears on my guitars to measure .

But my Epi and Gibson humbuckers are exactly the same measurements

(70mm L x 39mm W x 17mm H)

(Epi 57 Classic and Gibson 50ST USA humbucker on the Elitist Broadway)

Therefore' date=' I would expect that the dogears would be the same size

but the inch measurements converted to millimeters.

[/quote']

 

 

I was hoping to hear that was the case.

 

Still gotta wait a few days to pull the trigger unfortunately. I haven't told my wife yet, but my "second" paycheck is going to go to this rather than...something more...sensible? I don't quite like that, but it's the best I've got. I did tell her when I got the Wildkat (a reward to myself for taking on a second job) that there may well be a few other expenses attached...gonna have to definitely buy her something good soon. Wish she played guitar!

[jook]

From what I read here:

http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=58183

 

Tthe Gibson P90 pickups will fit on the MIK guitars, but the MIK dogear covers will not fit the Gibson P90 pickups.

That is, you will need to replace the covers as well... so make sure you get them with covers.

 

That dude in the link above installed Gibson P90's on his MIK Casino, so it should be quite relevant...

[GlennW]

Has anyone tried rw/rp P-90s in series? How did it sound?

[Gashole]

From what I read here:

http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=58183

 

Tthe Gibson P90 pickups will fit on the MIK guitars' date=' but the MIK dogear covers will not fit the Gibson P90 pickups.

That is, you will need to replace the covers as well... so make sure you get them with covers.

 

That dude in the link above installed Gibson P90's on his MIK Casino, so it should be quite relevant...

 

[/quote']

 

Hey, thanks jook. Was gonna go w/ plastic covers...can't decide on black or creme yet.

 

Mine has a sticker on it saying it was made in Indonesia. SI08037081 is the number in the f'hole. Any known issues in measurements between the various Asian factories?

 

 

Looks like it will be a month before anything can be done. Sweetwater is back ordered till Oct 5th. They are almost 30 bucks less then MF, so with buying 2, I definitely need to wait for Sweetwater.

 

Damn...I really don't want to wait that long. But there's no reason not to, other than impatience...which isn't a virtue!

[jook]

Tried ebay?

 

You got the antique natural kat right... I'd vote for black covers. I tend to prefer: Light coloured body with dark hardware. And vice versa. The contrast is cool.

[GlennW]

Changed the neck cap back to .023, much better.