Opinions and Info needed...please

[bigtufguy]

Hey everyone,

I have to Epis. One Hummingbird and an EL-00. I am thinking of replacing the saddles and bridge pins to bone. I have read here that this will improve the overall sound of the guitar. While this is indeed part of the reason I am considering this, I also just plain don't like the cheapo plastic saddles and pins that come on these nice guitars. I have NO knowledge of how to do this myself (though I have been to www.guitarsaddles.com and it doesn't look TOO difficult a task). I called my local guitar shop this afternoon and spoke with the owner. He has bone there to make the saddles if he cannot find direct replacements but, he suggested NOT using bone for the bridge pins. He said that bone is brittle and that brass would be a better substitute and also that the brass would help with the guitars sustain. I had never heard of this. My question is this..Has anyone else ever heard of this, is this common..?, and I'd like to hear some opinions on this from some people with more experience than myself. So, please post away. I look forward to your replies. As always..thank you in advance for all of your help and taking the time to reply.

[YerDugliness]

In general, BTG, the issue here is one of greater coupling of the strings to the soundboard. Conventional wisdom holds that the more dense a material is, the better the coupling. If you have ever been scuba diving and had someone tap on a tank with a knife blade, you'll understand what I mean....sound travels much more effectively, more quickly, and further in a more dense medium, as is water over air. So, the main benefit you will see here is from the saddle. There is some disagreement as to whether or not the bridge pins make any difference, but I'm willing to give those who think there is the benefit of the doubt, here. Bone is much more dense than is plastic, and the purpose of the bridge pins is simply to locate and hold the string ends (those little "balls" onto which the strings are wound that go into the holes for the bridge pins) in contact with the bridge plate under the soundboard of the guitar. Whereas the saddle is a direct coupling device for the strings, I can see the bridge pins being an indirect coupling device for the strings. Being more dense than plastic, however, I'm willing to admit that bone (or for that matter brass) would offer some benefit. Would it be enough to choose brass over bone, though? Not IMHO, as long as both sets of bridge pins would be made in a manner that would offer equal positioning of the string and the string end ball as they come up from below the bridge plate, through the bridge, and over the saddle. The ONLY issue where I might give the nod to the brass would be in durability as the head of the pin is grasped with needle-nose pliers to effect their removal....the bone might scar worse than the brass.....however, I fixed that long ago with a dedicated set of needle-nose pliers with some shrink-wrap installed on the ends, now there is no opportunity for the bone (or, in the case of my Breedlove custom shop 000, the ivory) to scar.

 

So, you're left with an issue of aesthetics, there....do you want brass pins on your guitar? I wouldn't....I like for all the parts (the nut, the saddle, the bridge pins, the end pin, and the strap button on the heel of the neck) to be of the same material for aesthetic reasons.....just my own compulsion, there, though!

 

You are correct, the saddle replacement is not a difficult process, it is the shaping of the saddle with the compensation that might be a bit tricky.....but if you order one from Bob, the compensation will already be tooled into the saddle when you get it. Bob's bridge pins will most likely be ready to use straight out of the package, perhaps some very light sanding to make them seat all the way to the collar on the bridge pin's head. He's that good!

 

Dugly

[zonie]

Having never had brass or bronze pins on my guitar this is just a theory. May be true or may not be.

 

Brass or bronze is MUCH heavier than plastic or bone and it seems to me that adding weight to the bridge pin holes would tend to dampen out the higher frequencies.

 

In order for all of the energy in the string to have its maximum effect on the sound board I would think it should be coupled with a hard light weight material like bone but adding additional mass by using brass pins may be counterproductive.

 

Perhaps someone who has actually tested out brass pins may add some thoughts?

Jim

[TommyK]

Visit Frets.com. Frank will give you the tutorials you seek. The pins, while an ambisious plan are probably better made by someone with a lathe. There are folks out there making beautiful pins from everything from bone to fossilized walrus ivory. Though a bit spendy compared to the plastic ones, might be worth not having the aggrivation of trying to machine those little buggers. But, if you have the machinery and the patience... have at it.

 

I've heard one guy who said the 'perfect' set of pins was Brass for two bass strings, bone for the middle two and cheapo plastic for the trebles. It's all subjective, so try the brass and see what you think.

[bigtufguy]

Alright, I have the saddle and one of the pins out of my EL-00 today. Sending them off to Bob Colosi on Monday afternoon for bone replacements. I'm a bit nervous about having to do some "fine" touch-up" work on the new saddle to get it to fit properly. I hope it isn't too bad. Could someone please post a reply and let me know how snug the fit should be. I'm assuming it should be a bit snug without falling out. When I removed the original saddle, it seemed to be kind of loose. Having never done this before, I have nothing to compare to and am flying by the seat of my pants without a pilot's license. If all goes well, the Hummingbird will be next. Thanks for any help.

[YerDugliness]

Could someone please post a reply and let me know how snug the fit should be. I'm assuming it should be a bit snug without falling out. When I removed the original saddle' date=' it seemed to be kind of loose. Having never done this before, I have nothing to compare to. Thanks for any help.[/quote']

 

You are correct, BTG, that the saddle should fit into the groove on the bridge tightly enough that it should not fall out when the guitar is turned upside down. What is important when you get the saddle is to make sure that as you sand the saddle down to size, the surfaces should be as flat as possible, and this is particularly important for the bottom of the saddle.

 

Here's what you need--a 12" X 12" piece of double strength (if available) window glass from a hardware store and a sheet of fine grade Emery Cloth (it will never need to be replaced and can be used wet) and some form of polishing paper for the finishing of the piece--this can be a few discs of "auto body" sandpaper, in 600 or finer grit.

 

Make sure your emery cloth has not been bent or creased in any manner and make sure you don't do so, either.

 

Put some duct tape around the edges of the window glass so you don't cut yourself, then tape the emery cloth to the surface of the window glass with yet some more of that duct tape. The reason you want window glass is b/c that is the flattest surface you can find, as well as the straightest....important for the bottom of that saddle.

 

Look carefully at the ends of the slot in the bridge--most will have a curved profile rather than square-cut, but what you want to do here is to see if the saddle needs to have the corners sanded off or if it will fit with square-cut ends. Get the ends of the saddle as close as possible, but don't obsess about it too much, the interference fit in the groove comes from the thickness of the saddle.

 

The next part is the part where you will want to go slowly--getting the saddle to the correct thickness that it will fit ENTIRELY into the bridge slot and yet be large enough so as not to be loose. Just use some water on the emery cloth and go slowly with the saddle as you sand it down to the correct thickness...check very frequently as you get closer.

 

Once you have the thickness correct, you'll need to start on the height of the saddle....I used my previous saddle to mark on the new one with an ink pen where the bottom of the new saddle should be, then I started sanding on that piece of emery cloth. Keep a good straight edge handy and as you get closer to the line, stop and resume test-fitting it into the bridge slot. What is most important is that the bottom of the saddle is precisely flat so that you get good transfer of the strings' vibrations to the bottom of the saddle slot, which in turn couples with the soundboard of the guitar. Get a bit of a high spot to the bottom of the saddle, or even a bit of a low spot, and you may be disappointed with the sound....just use that straightedge to make sure the bottom of your saddle stays flat.

 

You won't need to work the top, Bob will have already done that for you....other than some finish polishing.

 

All in all I took about 90 minutes to do the saddle for my "other brand" dreadnought.....and that included about 5 minutes of polishing with those auto-body shop "discs" that I mentioned...they put a nice shine on the piece and it looks great next to the bone bridge pins.

 

Just curious, did you get the abalone inlaid bridge pins or the plain ones? Bob's work is SO GOOD!! You won't need to do much, if any, to the bridge pins.....if they don't seat all the way down, you might need to take some very fine strips of sandpaper and just ever so gently take a bit off the outside of the pin where it fits into the pin's hole. Those are tapered holes and the pin needs a tight fit there, too! I've never needed to do anything to any of Bob's pins, though..he's that good!

 

Let us know how it goes, BTG! The most common mistake here is to take too much off the height of the saddle in an effort to lower the action, and you end up with fret-buzz. It's a pretty common mistake, so common in fact that Bob also sells shim kits to raise the saddle a bit. Go slowly and you won't need them.....

 

 

Dugly

[bigtufguy]

Hey Dug,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking this would be easy...now, you just made me nervous..hahaha. I can build a computer...I should be able to do this..(I hope). Anyway, For my EL-00 (which had black pins originally), I went with the bone with the black 3mm inlay. When I do the Hummingbird, I will get the 3mm abalone inlay, (as this is what was on the guitar from the factory). I wanted black for the EL-00 but I think sticking with bone was a better choice than the buffalo horn. I will probably (in the future) switch the black end pin to bone. Just to have everything looking the same. GOD,..when I took the saddle out of that EL-00 and took a good look at it, I couldn't help but think...."DANG ! This thing looks (and feels) sooooo cheap. I'm a newbie but, I LOVE that little guitar.

Thanks again, Dug !

[bigtufguy]

UPDATE ! Got a call from Bob today. The replacement saddle for the EL-00 is being copied from my original, no big deal. However the bridge pins are a custom size. Bob says "about halfway between a size 1 and size 2. Now, the major downer....it is going to take another week for him to complete making the set of pins ! :- I have the week off and was hoping to get a ton of playing time on the improved EL-00.

 

Oh well, at least I have the 'Bird to play !

I'll post another update when I get the EL back in playable condition.

 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone

[sexygibson]

I added brass pins to my Martin DM at one time honestly could not tell that big a difference. If anything the tone was just a bit " brighter".

[zombywoof]

Most of the changes in a tonal palette made by this bridge or that and this pin or that can only be heard by someone by with dog hearing.

 

I threw some brass pins in my '60 Gibson J-200 and not me nor anyone who knew that guitar could hear one lick of difference.

 

The mass of the neck or playing a guitar without a truss rod will have far more impact on resonance than your bridge pins.

[bigtufguy]

I was hoping for a noticeable difference after switching the saddle from plastic to bone. I guess that won't be happening.

[glide340]

It's not going to make your guitar into something it's not, but I think most experienced people will tell you that the bone saddle will definately be an improvement over plastic. In my experience, bone saddles and nuts are well worth installing, on any guitar. I put 'em on everything. It's always bridge pins that people disagree on. Some swear they make a difference, some say they don't. You can't go wrong changing from plastic to bone saddles and nuts IMHO. I venture to say, if fit and installation, etc. are correctly done, there will be a noticeable improvement in tone and sustain with the bone. Good luck with it. By the way, I had an EL-00 and changed the saddle and nut to bone. Made a BIG difference in the guitar.

 

John.

[YerDugliness]

I think most experienced people will tell you that the bone saddle will definately be an improvement over plastic. In my experience' date=' bone saddles and nuts are well worth installing, on any guitar. I put 'em on everything. It's always bridge pins that people disagree on.

John.[/quote']

 

I'm with John on this one--did this sort of experiment myself, changed out the saddle first, got use to the sound, then changed out the bridge pins. The saddle made an incredible improvement in the guitar's response and projection. The bridge pins, not so much, perhaps nothing at all, but to my ears there was a bit of a difference in the area of sustain.

 

I put bone (or ivory) nuts and saddles on everything I own, too (with the exception of my all laminate campfire guitar). Lots of people will tell you that the nut doesn't make much difference, b/c once you fret a string the nut is essentially bypassed, but I definitely hear a difference in the sustain between a plastic nut and a bone nut. If you are still at the point in this endeavor at which you still use a lot of open chords (not barred chords), you'll notice this, too.

 

So, and again this will probably sound familiar, the following pieces seem to me to offer the best opportunity for a noticable improvement:

 

Saddle--bone offers a definite improvement over plastic on almost any guitar

 

Nut--depending on your skill level, there may be a tonal improvement with a new bone nut. One of the other benefits of bone over plastic, however, is in it's resistance to wear. Over time, tuning those wound strings on our guitars can have an effect on the slots in the nut similar to dragging a very small rat-tail file through the slots. Eventlually, this will wear down a plastic slot to the point that a replacement is due, anyway, but if you go ahead and replace both the saddle and the nut with matching bone you never have to worry about needing to replace the nut in the future. The bone is hard enough that the strings just slide over it without notching it. And, there's the pleasure of seeing matching pieces on the guitar.

 

Bridge pins--it's a crap shoot here....some hear a difference, some don't. If you ever stick your hand inside the body of the guitar and feel around where the ball ends on the string are as you string your guitar up, you'll realize that the pins don't actually hold the string in by anything other than the pressure fit as the tapered pins simply provide a method of closing the hole in the bridge so the string can't slip out. Really, try this sometime, once you get all the strings installed at the bridge, slip your arm into the body of the guitar and grab the end of one of the strings. If the string is installed right, with the string in the slot on the bridge pin, you should be able to pull on that string and get it to slide through the slot even with the bridge pin fully seated. So, does that offer any sort of improved "coupling" between the string and the soundboard? Again, I hear a slight enhancement of sustain with the bone bridge pins, it just isn't to the magnitude of the improvements from the saddle and nut. The pleasure of seeing all of those pieces match (as well as the end pin and the strap button if you can go for those pieces)......priceless, I guess :D .

 

At some point I'm going to give the fossilized Walrus tusk a try. I have two guitars with Bob Colosi's West African Hard Ivory and the overtones from those two guitars are incredible. With bone I hear much more prominent fundamental tones.....mix bone and one step up on the gauge of guitar strings you use and watch that guitar come alive!

 

Hoping to year about your experiences with the saddle replacement, BTG!

 

Dugly

[bigtufguy]

Thanks Dug. I knew I could count on you for some more detailed information. Thanks again. I willpost when the new saddle and pins are installed.

 

Mike

[bigtufguy]

Well, I received the new saddle and pins today. The pins were a perfect fit. The saddle needed VERY little work to fit in the bridge. By little I mean I took my time and it only took about twenty to thirty minutes of work. Hard to believe I was nervous about attempting this. I haven't gotten much play time on the new setup but, so far, I love the sound of this little guitar. So much in fact that I put the EL-00 away, pulled out the Hummingbird, pulled the strings and saddle, and packaged them off to send to Bob Colosi on Monday afternoon.

[YerDugliness]

Well' date=' I received the new saddle and pins today. The pins were a perfect fit. The saddle needed VERY little work to fit in the bridge. By little I mean I took my time and it only took about twenty to thirty minutes of work. Hard to believe I was nervous about attempting this. I haven't gotten much play time on the new setup but, so far, I love the sound of this little guitar. So much in fact that I put the EL-00 away, pulled out the Hummingbird, pulled the strings and saddle, and packaged them off to send to Bob Colosi on Monday afternoon. [/quote']

 

I'm so glad you found this a workable project, BTG!! Bob really does put good quality into his work, and I always tell my students "There is no substitute for success!". Now that you've found out how easy it was to be successful with this endeavor, I'm sure that the Hummingbird will go even easier!

 

Cheers to you, BTG, for "stretching".....if your adventuresome nature extends to your musical playing style, I'll bet you're one fine picker (or, if not yet, will be soon!).

 

Hmmmm.....gotta surf into the www.bigtufguy.com website and see what it's all about !

 

Again, congratulations and here's wishing you success in all your future upgrades--and there will be more, belive me!

 

Dugly

[Matt the Cat]

Just to add my thoughts in to the mix. I think you've done the right thing. I have an epi h'bird which now has bone nut and saddle plus brass pins that I already had on an old guitar. Don't know about the individual merits of each part but I do know that I'm very happy with the overall sound and for a relatively low cost, I now have a guitar that I love and to me sounds much better than the small amount of cash that it has cost to get it that way. Enjoy your upgraded guitars....

 

Matt

[bigtufguy]

Thanks Matt. Did you get the saddle and nut from www.guitarsaddles.com or did you purchase them elsewhere ? I'm just curious. Also, is you bird black or sunburst ?

 

Mike

[Matt the Cat]

Hi Mike

 

I had the nut and saddle done locally to me in UK (wasn't aware of Bob Colosi at the time, doh!) My 'bird is sunburst, although I'm really liking your natural one. I also changed the machine heads to Grover Rotos Keystone as I prefer the look. Might post a pic or two when I get around to it!

 

Matt

[bigtufguy]

Matt, please post those pics. I'd LOVE to see your 'bird. I do like the natural finish. I have yet to see another one.

 

Mike

[Matt the Cat]

Here's one of me playing the old girl. Will take some more pics including the new tuners and post up soon.

[YerDugliness]

Matt, how about filling us in on the electronics in your H-Bird? I have recently acquired an AJ500RC to which I would like to add a pickup, would like to know about yours and what you like and dislike about it. I'd rather not butcher up the body with the pre-amp package, so if I do put in a pickup I'll use an outboard pre-amp.

 

I'd need to contact Epiphone and find out if this would void the factory warranty (I cannot imagine it would not void the warranty, as the warranty specifically mentions "modified" as a voiding issue). It took me 2 years to source this AJ, and with the history of lifting bridges on this model I really want to do nothing to void the lifetime warranty, but as good as this guitar is it needs electronics for open-mic nights at least.

 

I notice most of the Gibson H-Birds have electronics, have never seen a factory Epi H-Bird with electronics.

 

TIA for whatever information you can provide!

 

Dugly

[Matt the Cat]

Hi Doug

 

The pickup installed is an Artec Piezo with their EPP end-pin preamp. It cost about £30 ($50) and sounds alright. It's very loud, has no volume control but with a bit of adjustment on my amp eq I can get an ok sound. I am going to replace it with probably an LR Baggs M1A (heard nothing but good things about these) in the new year as I want a more 'acoustic' sound. Also Gibson use LR baggs as standard on their acoustics, so well worth checking them out.

The Artec is great value for money though and requires only a little work to install.

 

Matt

[hunter3705]

That's hilarious, Matt! We have the exact same Epi guitars! You have excellent taste, LOL! Great picture of you playing, btw. Happy holidays! Alan