Ricochet Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I play a chord change/lead run on Raven' date=' it does now have more sustain on lead notes, sounds good with chord changes. I then pick up my EPI Les paul Studio, play EXACT same stuff for comparison. The EPI just simply has more bottom end/lower frequency notes coming thru, more "raw power". EPI has Alnico classic humbuckers. Tone cap on epi soldered same way as raven. Why am I not getting more lower freqs from the raven? Does the wood used for body have effect on tonal output? [/quote'] Simply put. Yes. Consider these tone influencing aspects(and some examples) for the body - weight, light vs heavy - material, maple vs mahogany - construction, one piece vs multilayer/slabs - shape, telecaster vs les paul the neck - material, maple vs mahagony - fretboard, maple vs rosewood - construction, bolt-on vs neckthrough - profile, boat vs flat Construction and finish - scale, strat vs les paul - angled headstocks/bridge - oil/wax vs acrylic lacqer Hardware and Electronics - nut, plastic vs brass - bridge, fixed vs tremolo - material, brass vs alu tailpieces - strings, 013 vs 08 - Pickups, Humbucker vs single coil - Pickups-magnet, ceramic vs alnico - Pickups output - Pickups adjustment - potmeters, 250 vs 500k - wiring etc, etc Any differences found for these aspects(even the minute ones) will add up to make a significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Thank you, thank you, gentlemen. I'm slowly gathering the information I need to make a logical, informed decision as to my next step. There appear to be a few small changes I CAN make to see if any difference. My epis are open-coil, my GFS are gold plate covered. Watched a you-tube video with a guy trying to show sound difference, same git, same pups, just covered and uncovered. Can't say I really noticed that much diff. I REALLY need to do more research on pickup wiring starting with basic humbucker, no fancy coil tap/split at this point. Just need to know the CORRECT way, how pot value affects output sound, etc. Once I personally get it, I'll be sure to pass on info, probably will produce written document for posterity. KEEP the info coming, discuss!!!!!! Thank you to ALL who are trying to help me learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderstruck507 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sounds like a problem with wiring, maybe the 250k pots, or if you couldn't tell the difference in that video then maybe your ear has learned things differently, cause I definitely heard a MAJOR difference. I find stock epi pickups to be very muddy, this could be what you're referring to with lack of bass. GFS should be clearer and a little brighter, but they should still have plenty of balls. How did the Raven sound before the swap? Is there any way at all you can get us a soundclip of video? Words are hard to describe sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Simply put. Yes. Consider these tone influencing aspects(and some examples) for the body - weight' date=' light vs heavy - material, maple vs mahogany - construction, one piece vs multilayer/slabs - shape, telecaster vs les paul the neck - material, maple vs mahagony - fretboard, maple vs rosewood - construction, bolt-on vs neckthrough - profile, boat vs flat Construction and finish - scale, strat vs les paul - angled headstocks/bridge - oil/wax vs acrylic lacqer Hardware and Electronics - nut, plastic vs brass - bridge, fixed vs tremolo - material, brass vs alu tailpieces - strings, 013 vs 08 - Pickups, Humbucker vs single coil - Pickups-magnet, ceramic vs alnico - Pickups output - Pickups adjustment - potmeters, 250 vs 500k - wiring etc, etc Any differences found for these aspects(even the minute ones) will add up to make a significant difference.[/quote'] all those above and I found out through experimenting myself that the fat pat/crunchy pat does not have as nice low bass response as the uncovered vintage 59s.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sounds like a problem with wiring' date=' maybe the 250k pots, or if you couldn't tell the difference in that video then maybe your ear has learned things differently, cause I definitely heard a MAJOR difference. I find stock epi pickups to be very muddy, this could be what you're referring to with lack of bass. GFS should be clearer and a little brighter, but they should still have plenty of balls. How did the Raven sound before the swap? Is there any way at all you can get us a soundclip of video? Words are hard to describe sounds.[/quote'] Yes, the GFS pickups do sound brighter with more sustain on individual lead bends, and the output is good, but remember all I have to compare with is Gibson "the paul" and EPI LP Studio. I suppose I was expecting similar sound. The original "G and B's" lacked brightness. I can provide a sound clip of the G and B pups, but as they're out of my git, all you'll hear is me BANGING THEM TOGETHER!!(NYUK, NYUK). You must remember, this is new territory for me, and though I am a fast learner, there will be things that may need to explained in a more basic way. Dammit, I lost my Big Chief tablet... I will grab a couple of 500k pots today, a few different cap values, and some "Aggy-lator" clips (GOOOOD IDEA!!!), see what happens. What differences did YOU hear between covered and uncovered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderstruck507 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Yes' date=' the GFS pickups do sound brighter with more sustain on individual lead bends, and the output is good, but remember all I have to compare with is Gibson "the paul" and EPI LP Studio. I suppose I was expecting similar sound. The original "G and B's" lacked brightness. I can provide a sound clip of the G and B pups, but as they're out of my git, all you'll hear is me BANGING THEM TOGETHER!!(NYUK, NYUK). You must remember, this is new territory for me, and though I am a fast learner, there will be things that may need to explained in a more basic way. Dammit, I lost my Big Chief tablet... I will grab a couple of 500k pots today, a few different cap values, and some "Aggy-lator" clips (GOOOOD IDEA!!!), see what happens. What differences did YOU hear between covered and uncovered?[/quote'] on that particular video the covered were MUCH warmer and smoother, uncovered they were thin, pingy sounding, and just more brightness overall but I question his amp settings and pickup height, like I said when I uncovered my lp pickup there was very little difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generation zero Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Regarding the green and black wires, it doesn't matter which diagram you follow, as long as you use the same code on both pickups. Basically, green comes from one end of the coil, and black comes from the other end of the other coil. The only difference would be the polarity, which only matters if you have one pickup opposite the other, then with both pickups on, you would have them out of phase, and that would give you a much thinner, airy sound. But as long as you use either the green OR the black as the "hot" lead on both pickups, you're fine. You would only have issues if you were to use the red or white wire in place of one of the other two. Then you could be messing with a variety of things, like bypassing one coil entirely, or putting the two coils in series vs. parallel, or anything else I may be missing. Basically, red and white connected to each other and taped off, and either the black or the green connected as a hot lead to the volume pot, and the remaining wire soldered with the bare wire to ground... that's your basic install, and sounds like what you have done already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookelputz Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Out of phase sound, 2 identical but reversed signals, cancels out the mids- and upper-bass. You can see on a scope, the sine waves are mirror-images. When they collide with each other perfectly, the wave goes flat...well remaining signal is very weak. In a stereo system, you can cancel some of the cancellation (?) by changing your listening position closer or farther away from one speaker in relation to the other, because physical position determines elapsed time from speaker to ear, and so some of the sound has to travel longer distances and cannot collide exactly with its opposite number before reaching your ear. Not an issue in a guitar because the signal from both pickups is effectively real time - and therefore cancel those matching frequencies at the selector switch (first point they meet), so only the highs and lows go to the amp. Clear as mud, now, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 Snook - your explanation is fine, the details and dynamics no different than my trying to explain the concept of "radio wave" propagation to someone (concept from Navy days) who is new to the idea. I get it, and appreciate the effort. And add "atmospheric scintillation" to that... After another 1.5 hour play, plus lots of Knob up, knob down, listen to differences over and over, plus re-check of wiring (Gen Zero) I've decided that : 1. Wiring IS correct. 2. 250K tone knob does NOT give me a lot of tonal difference, gotta go. Have 2 500K knobs rdy to go in, will keep .022ufd caps. 3. Brighter sound is good. Started playing ZZ TOP leads, pick ups allowed me to whip out "gliss note" after gliss note/false harmonics with pick angled without really even trying, sounded sort of "Billy Gibbon-ish". I don't want EVERYTHING I play to sound like SPINAL TAP! 4. My initial thought was to put in seymour duncan hot-rodded humbuck set, put GFS in due to rep and cost. Anyone have personal feedback on duncan set? I'll leave the GFS Fat Pat humbuckers in for now, but am open to suggestions. 5. Wood used and internal construction? Either way, it sounds like it sounds, it IS a good sound, a brighter sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generation zero Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Probably for the better anyway, if all your guitars sound the same, what's the justification for having more than one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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