Pickup for 40's Zephyr Deluxe?

[stevenc]

I recently bought a 1947 Zephyr Deluxe body for a "project". I have found all the necessary parts except a pickup. I'm looking for a clean jazz tone (I'm a fingerpicker) and I don't necessarily "need" a vintage Tone Spectrum pickup. I'm willing to spend the $$ for vintage replacement but I can't find one. So, any advice or recommendations on a modern surface mount pickup that'll fit? I'm unwilling to route the body and I only have about 0.5" from wood to strings. In a perfect world it would also cover the discolored footprint left by the original pickup which is about as wide as a modern humbucker and as long as a dog-eared P90. In terms of basic functionality, I can always attach a thin floating pickup to the pickguard but I'd like to exhaust the surface mount options first. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[smips65]

First off....

 

Welcome here Steve

Congrats on your new elderly baby.

 

a few thoughts....

 

 

Please post some pics of that Zephyr, if you don't know how, here's the link,

http://forums.epiphone.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8886

 

 

If you could, get a shot of the neck joining the body (top-side)

 

Benedetto makes some really good pick ups. Some can be ordered with the glue plate for the pickguard mount.

http://benedettopickups.com/products.htm

 

Personally, I prefer the neckmount method. Pickguard mounting just seems too microphonish for me, the pup should be anchored to the body of the guitar, even the neck is better than the guard. Sounds more organic and natural to my ear.

[carverman]

I recently bought a 1947 Zephyr Deluxe body for a "project". I have found all the necessary parts except a pickup. I'm looking for a clean jazz tone (I'm a fingerpicker) and I don't necessarily "need" a vintage Tone Spectrum pickup. I'm willing to spend the $$ for vintage replacement but I can't find one. So' date=' any advice or recommendations on a modern [u']surface mount[/u] pickup that'll fit? I'm unwilling to route the body and I only have about 0.5" from wood to strings. In a perfect world it would also cover the discolored footprint left by the original pickup which is about as wide as a modern humbucker and as long as a dog-eared P90. In terms of basic functionality, I can always attach a thin floating pickup to the pickguard but I'd like to exhaust the surface mount options first. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

 

 

Does it look like this 1949 Zephyr Deluxe with the Tone Spectrum (SC) pickup?

 

If so, do you still have the tone/volume control? And where are the mounting holes? closer to

the neck or around the middle?

 

TONE SPECTRUM PICKUP

Single coil antiquity pickup. Magnets are not specified but I expect the older style

somewhat equivalent to Alnico IIs preaged (slightly demagged)

The Gibson p-90/SD P-90 or Jason Lollar antiquity P-90 is probably a more appropriate

choice for a vintage guitar to replace the Tone Spectrum.

Here is one example from Lollar.

http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LGP&Product_Code=202&Category_Code=P90-pickups

The Tone Spectrim size is 3.25" L x 1.5" W and mounted with two

screws similar to the P-90 dogear that has a plastic cover of 3.375" L x 1.75 W.

 

If you only have 1/2 inch height from surface of top to strings,

as you say at the neck, it is going to be difficult to fit a replacement pickup without

either routing a hole or using a pickguard mount.

 

You may have better luck by moving the pickup to the center position as on the

guitar above. That should allow a bit of space between the strings and p-90.

[brianh]

If so' date=' do you still have the tone/volume control? And where are the mounting holes? closer to

the neck or around the middle?[/quote']

Gawd, that's a beautiful guitar. What book is that from?

 

BTW, those old DeArmond/Rowe floating pups would work. Not sure if they're period correct for an Epi, but I have one on a Guild A500 and it sounds GREAT:

 

 

 

 

[stevenc]

Thanks for the quick input and thanks for the pic upload link.

 

Here's a pic of the 1947 Zephyr Deluxe as I received it. Structurally it's solid but the binding is a utter mess and somebody did an overspray that's sagging pretty much everywhere you look. The tuners and tone/volume controls along with the internal wiring appear to be original and are in good shape. The pickguard and tailpiece are obvious non-vintage replacements and they've been removed with correct replacements ordered from archtop.com. The guitar is currently with a local luthier who is rebinding and refinishing.

 

I decided to upload a pic with the pickguard in place because it better illustrates the pickup placement and size. It looks almost identical to the 1949 that carverman posted except that the pickup placement on my 1947 is further toward the neck.

 

I looked at the Lollar P90 and noticed that he mentions a "short" dog-ear version. Does anybody know if "short" refers to height or length?

 

 

 

[brianh]

I probably means height, since in a 2-PUP guitar the neck pickup has less clearance and P90s are not height adjustable.

 

It does sort of look like it had a P90 on it before, owing to the holes and outline. If it was a floating pickup hanging off the pickguard, there would be a hole or two in the guard, and just some abrasion on the body.

 

BTW, here a link to a list of every PUP mfr out there: http://www.pickupedia.info/Guitar_pickup_makers

 

Nice guitar, I am jealous...

[carverman]

Thanks for the quick input and thanks for the pic upload link.

 

Here's a pic of the 1947 Zephyr Deluxe as I received it. Structurally it's solid but the binding is a utter mess and somebody did an overspray that's sagging pretty much everywhere you look. The tuners and tone/volume controls along with the internal wiring appear to be original and are in good shape. The pickguard and tailpiece are obvious non-vintage replacements and they've been removed with correct replacements ordered from archtop.com. The guitar is currently with a local luthier who is rebinding and refinishing.

 

I decided to upload a pic with the pickguard in place because it better illustrates the pickup placement and size. It looks almost identical to the 1949 that carverman posted except that the pickup placement on my 1947 is further toward the neck.

 

I looked at the Lollar P90 and noticed that he mentions a "short" dog-ear version. Does anybody know if "short" refers to height or length?

 

If you read what he says about pickup sizing ...see "DOGEAR SIZING...."

http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LGP&Product_Code=202&Category_Code=P90-pickups

 

you will note that he mentions that the "short" is a mere .2 inches high, and the

"tall" is .452 inches high.

 

The short will definitely fit under your middle pickup string height with a couple of

shims that he supplies with that P-90, but you will need to order them.

The hole in the middle is for the wire to route to the controls.

About the only thing you need to consider is the string spacing as the spacing

on the "short" is 1 7/8 across the pole pieces and you will need to determine

with a mockup to see if that is correct.

 

I would suggest that you make a mockup pickup from a piece of pine the same

size and see what thickness of shims you will need for it. If you are still interested

in the Jason Lollar P-90 , you can contact him directly to discuss the details

before you order.

 

Also, to be closer to the antiquity Tone Spectrum, you might discuss using a slightly

demagged alnico II magnet in your pickup..he might already have those.

[stevenc]

Thanks again. Lots of good information. I called Lollar about their short P90 and was told that the magnets "hang-out" of the short about 0.3" so the pups have to be shimmed-up for surface mount which essentially makes them just as deep as the tall. This is right at my minimum clearance so I might just order one and see if it works. I also called Kent Armstrong and he personally answered the phone. I was surprised. Wonderfully nice person and very patient with my rather rambling explanation of my situation. He said that he had 2 pickups (the 2-D and the Smooth-Top) that would certainly fit under my 0.5" limit if I chose to go with a floater. Anyone have any experience with these? He also thought that his adjustable PAF might work and offered to send them all to me just to see which one worked best. Even though I really want a fixed mount pickup, I have to admit that he makes me want to give him my business. It's amazing (or perhaps a shame) that simple courtesy and customer service surprised me. Have they become so rare?

[SamBooka]

Thanks again. Lots of good information. I called Lollar about their short P90 and was told that the magnets "hang-out" of the short about 0.3" so the pups have to be shimmed-up for surface mount which essentially makes them just as deep as the tall. This is right at my minimum clearance so I might just order one and see if it works. I also called Kent Armstrong and he personally answered the phone. I was surprised. Wonderfully nice person and very patient with my rather rambling explanation of my situation. He said that he had 2 pickups (the 2-D and the Smooth-Top) that would certainly fit under my 0.5" limit if I chose to go with a floater. Anyone have any experience with these? He also thought that his adjustable PAF might work and offered to send them all to me just to see which one worked best. Even though I really want a fixed mount pickup' date=' I have to admit that he makes me want to give him my business. It's amazing (or perhaps a shame) that simple courtesy and customer service surprised me. Have they become so rare?[/quote']

 

I talked to Lollar about a p90 for my emp reg. He made one with slugs instead of bar magnets. Sounds great (a little brighter than a p90 but in the same ballpark) and I was able to fit it drilling two screw holes (no cutting of the top)

 

If you want more info let me know and I will bang out a couple of pics.

[stevenc]

SamBooka, I'd very much like more information about your Lollar P90 with slugs. Thanks.

[smips65]

 

Is your Luthier doing anything about the fade area there, under the pup?

 

A neck mounted pup could be extended down enough to cover that area, and If my eyes aren't failing me, there's a hole for the wires to come through under the soundboard, so no exposed wires to look unattractive.

 

If you have already ordered an original pickguard, it most likely won't have a cut out for a pup.

 

 

and yeah Brian, I'm jealous too......

[stevenc]

Smips65, the faded area under the pup is really just the outline of the slightly off-color overspray. Also, when the previous owner oversprayed it he literally just sprayed over the pup so when he took the pup off there was a very definable ridge and almost a peeling away effect. The Luthier is taking the overspray off and believes that the outline will completely go away. Fingers crossed. If I go with a floater, it will cover the wire hole and the pickguard will cover one of the screw holes. The other screw hole will remain exposed and I don't know if I should attempt to fill it or just leave it alone. Any thoughts?

[carverman]

Smips65' date=' the faded area under the pup is really just the outline of the slightly off-color overspray. Also, when the previous owner oversprayed it he literally just sprayed over the pup so when he took the pup off there was a very definable ridge and almost a peeling away effect. The Luthier is taking the overspray off and believes that the outline will completely go away. Fingers crossed. If I go with a floater, it will cover the wire hole and the pickguard will cover one of the screw holes. The other screw hole will remain exposed and I don't know if I should attempt to fill it or just leave it alone. Any thoughts?[/quote']

 

Other than the middle hole for the pickup coil wire to go through, if you are not going to use the same holes, just have the luthier fill them.

It would be an extreme piece of luck to find a modern pickup that will have the same

center to center mounting hole dimensions anyway, so there is no point in leaving

unused holes in a very rare vintage instrument such as you have.

 

Epiphone did use the DeArmond adjustable pickups on some of their guitars between

1953 and 1957, the final year of production. These were the same as what Gretsch

uses and were called DeArmond 2000 back then. It may have been a marketing thing

because the Tone Spectrum made by their own factory in NYC was going through a

lot of unrest back in those days. I used these on my '66 Triumph which was an

acoustic that I modified with Gibson style controls and two SC 2000s. However

these did have an adjustable style pole piece rod magnets that moved up and down

when the screws were adjusted and required a hole in the top for clearance.

Not something you want to do to a vintage guitar.

 

Surface mount P-90 or a variant of it would be the best option here, IMO, because

it will be hard to remove the outline of the original tone spectrum as the wood

underneath and surrounding wood will have a different patina exposed to sunlight

over the 60 odd years. Besides, even if you can't find a replacement tone spectrum

for it, having a P-90 even with a custom bezel to fit over the original pickup location

will make this very rare instrument worth even more in the future as collectors guitar.

 

The Deluxe and the Zephyr Deluxe, next to the original Emperor were the top of the

line handcrafted instruments of American craftsmen of that period in Americana.

 

However you decide to restore the pickup, this should be kept in mind.

[twofeets]

Such a nice guitar. Even with originality a consideration, I would still be sorely tempted to put a Lollar Charlie Christian in it.

[brianh]

I had the same thought.

 

Unfortunately, it would very negatively impact the value, cutting a hole plus the three bolts...