b grade epiphone les pauls are they fakes ?

[ronskie]

Firstly I am as certain as I can be that the Epiphone les paul standard guitar I bought through Amazon website is a fake. It aint Amazons fault as it was a 3rd party company I got it from but never the less through Amazon website. I have checked pics of fakes online and my guitar just delivered today has all the fake errors like small slits through the top of the "o" and "p" in Epiphone across the headstock,also the word epiphone is slightly out of centre compared to the real thing, the knobs are not parallel to each other and in line with the pickguard screw, the left hand knob is directly below the bridge and not to the left as in real ones and the serial number doesn't check out on the guitardata site.

 

However after emailing the seller direct through Amazon to tell them it was a fake and I wanted my money back I was told it wasn't a fake. I got the following reply which slightly makes me wonder now, because the seller mentioned B products which is basically guitars from the factory that have flaws like seconds as we say in Britain, apparently his supplier buys them from the factory in Qingdao and finishes them off and sells them to the seller and according to the sellers email to me the guitars are genuine but flawed ones and that they sound the same and have the same grover tuners, pick ups etc and on looking at the tuners they do say grover and seem heavy. My question is if your making a fake why bother to put real grovers on them? they might not be real but it seems hard to me to stamp grover into the tuners to fake them when I have seen fake les paul standards with crappy tuners on them. The guitar I got today came from China and indeed was from Qindao going by the invoice on it but it could be a back street copier in quindao I suppose but in any case it was definately shipped from that region in China. All this has me still thinking it's a fake but there are doubts in my head now, heres the email reply from the seller on amazon which proports to be a guitar shop in england. Has anyone heard of b products or seconds getting sold cheaper but actually made in the proper factory and not fake? :

 

Dear Ronald,

I just sell the guitar at 203.39 Pounds. It is a B product not a fake.

You know the price of A product in the guitar shop. But they have the same sound.

The guitar factory always produce more guitars exceeds their budget to avoid

an undesirable event.

For example,the factory produced 120 guitars as the GIBSON GUITAR CORPORATION

only need 110 guitars.

They pick out 110 guitars and exported to foreign countries.

The rest of guitars are marked as B product.

Sometimes a B product has some issues in finish but not the sound.

Usually a B product was not completely produced(eg.the knobs and the pickguards). My supplier broght it out of the factory and completed it. So there are quite few differences. But the important fittings (eg. the pickups,machine head) are real epiphone fittings.

 

The guitar was shipped from Qingdao,China.

China is the place of origin. The guitar was made in Gibson Qingdao(China) Plant.

 

 

Parcel number: EC370104955GB

--------------

05-11-2010 12:44 Glasgow Central Depot Delivered

05-11-2010 07:11 Glasgow Central Depot Loaded to vehicle for delivery

05-11-2010 04:53 Glasgow Central Depot Received at delivery depot

04-11-2010 10:39 National Hub Received and processed

04-11-2010 07:26 International Hub Forwarded for UK processing

03-11-2010 17:55 International Hub Awaiting Customs clearance

03-11-2010 17:54 International Hub Received in destination country

31-10-2010 08:21 Delivery Agent - EMSEVT QINGDAO Forwarded for export

30-10-2010 11:01 Delivery Agent - CHINA Collected from customer

 

----------------

 

 

 

The postage from China cost at least 90 Pounds.

You can check the price on the web or local post office.

You can choose to keep it if it sounds good.

Or you can return the guitar to our UK address. I will give you full refund include the postage.

[ronskie]

I will see if I can send some pics in but to be honest the seller guitar shop through amazon said it was a b product and therefore would look different(an excuse to cover up the fact it's a fake if you ask me!)so don't think pics would prove anything other than it's definitely not the complete finished article sold at full price. I am presuming the guiter shop I got if from through amazon is using a source that either buys seconds from the factory without the managers of the factories knowledge or works there and smuggles out flawed guitars and finishes them theirself, but more likely it's just a fake! as far as the serial numer goes it has no letters in it just numbers and the firat 6 numbers are 090215 which I presume means 2009 february and factory 15 which is qindao plant.

[brianh]

It's a fake.

 

If it did not pass through Gibson/Epiphone supply chain stamped 2ND or USED, it was a back-door guitar and is illegal as far as Gibson is concerned.

 

You should contact Gibson customer service and forward your correspondence to them.

 

You should also contact Amazon so they cut off this counterfeiter.

 

Do it now.

[ronskie]

ok, done some pics on my mobile with night mode on so probably not great quality but will add them if someone can tell me how to add pics on here. Sorry a nube here and just joined.

[ronskie]

yeah got that fine, bare with me please my usb connection to my pc is not excepting the pics from my mobile right now, will keep trying so check back soon. As for Amazon I have alerted to them the details and that it is a fake and also told them the other guitars in the same price range from different sellers are probably fake to and asked them to do something about it. As far as Gibson are concerned I would be lying if I said I would be overly really bothered if the guitar did have all the proper epiphone pickups, tuners, wiring etc and it just got finished with a few knobs etc because that would make it not perfect but as good as and is more a concern for Gibson and factory security than it is for me. I suspect though it is a pure fake and therefore has fake everything. I certainly couldn't tell from the pick ups if they were the real ones! and the tuners say grover and have been stamped into sturdy tuners which I presume would be hard to do on fake grovers if there is such a thing.

[Supersonic]

has all the fake errors like small slits through the top of the "o" and "p" in Epiphone across the headstock

 

 

Am I missing something here? Those are supposed to be there

[brianh]

It's not the parts that make it a fake - the Grovers may be real, and even the pickups.

 

And it might be an OK playing guitar.

 

It's the fact that it is not and never was a Gibson authorized product that makes it a counterfeit.

[Barcham]

Hi ronskie,

 

sorry to hear.....

 

some thoughts...

 

- the guitardater don't "know" the serial# Epi uses since 2008 (without prefix-letters)

 

- no legit guitar ships directly from QuingDao to the customer

 

- you shoud contact the Customer-service to proof if it's fake or not

 

- please show some pics....

 

Actually, early 2008 Epis do have the EE code in front of the serial number. They changed over to the new format midway through the year. My Les Paul happens to be an early 2008 model and it has the EE sn format.

[AlanH]

Ronskie,

 

This is the most valuable thread on Epi fakes that has been posted on this forum, IMO.

 

People like Steven Lister and myself have been banging on about Epi 3rds / backdoor Epis for some time now. Up until now we've never had any proof of the theory and Epiphone have remained tight lipped on the subject, except to say that Epiphone fakes do exist.

 

Your post answers questions such as:-

-Why would fakers bother to fake an Epiphone when they could make much more money by faking a Gibson / when the quality of the fake Epi is not much different to the real Epi?

Answer: Because they were made in Epi China already and are surplus / 'too' faulty to be a second.

 

-Why is it that the fakes seem to have flaws such as misaligned tuners/pots, faulty headstock graphics and alternative electronics.

Answer: Because the guitar went in to the machine incorrectly and thus didn't pass the QC to make it even a second. Therefore, the tuners and electronics were removed or were never installed in the first place. However, in China, this otherwise finished body/neck would not be wasted. Rather, it would be sold on either officially as factory 'waste'; unofficially at cost price in order to maintain profit margins and low customer return rates; or sold on unofficially by unscrupulous Epi employees who might also throw in a few 'acquired' Epi parts but not necessarily the full compliment.

 

-Why are some Epi fakes made of inferior wood (mdf or ply)?

Answer: Because the manufacturing culture in China does not care about what wood is used if the mahogany/nato runs out, when there is a production line to keep running and when it's very unlikely to be spotted anyway.

 

-Why don't Gibson admit to the Epi 3rd/backdoor Epi theory?

Answer: Because they wouldn't want customers to know that they could get an otherwise genuine EE made Epi which might just need a few hardware/electronics swapouts (which they might want to make anyway) for half the price of an authorised one.

 

Of course, the posters above are correct. This is not an official Epi second - those do exist an can be bought from legitimate sources (although you don't see them much these days anyway). You should therefore threaten them with legal action because the guitar you have been sold is not an authorised second. I'm sure you may have some course for redress under the UK distance selling regulations (7 day sale or return); and, if the company has no UK address, then I would think that Amazon would legally be deemed to be the producer if they cannot provide you with details of the actual producer.

 

One thing is for sure. Gibson/Epi's decision to move production to China may have been flawed if confidence in Chinese production becomes impaired. Gibson need to seriously do something about this, IMO.

 

Alan

[Barcham]

I seriously doubt that the fakes are coming out of the Qing Dao factory. This is a Gibson owned and run guitar factory and considering the damage that the fakes do to the Epiphone brand, I'm pretty sure they would have stopped this a long time ago if indeed it has ever been the source of the fakes.

 

If anyone can prove that they have purchased an Epiphone that is made of mfd, when it is stated it is solid wood in all their advertising material, from an authorized dealer who can prove the authenticity of the guitar, they have grounds for one hell of a lawsuit against Gibson/Epiphone and I don't think the company would take that kind of a risk. The bad press that would come out of such an event would probably spell the end of the Epiphone brand and do serious harm to the Gibson name also.

[ronskie]

sorry pics upload not working, my usb not connecting at the moment. I am just saying what the seller said regarding them getting seconds or b grade flawed guitars from qindao and as there seems to be no legitimate outlet for selling flawed guitars them it would be fair to assume their supplier is somehoe either sneaking them out the factory or paying someone to sneak them out because I would assume flawed ones should be binned and not sold on. However I am of the opinion this may just be a smokescreen by the seller to cover up the fact that they are just fakes and therefore not sneaked out the factory but some yhings are for sure - my guitr is not the real thing and it was shipped from qindao and it says grover on the tuners, anything else I don't know. It could be cheaper wood. I had a strum for a little while and if those are the right humbuckers then they sound cheapish to me. I am a novice at playing but my epi special 2 I got 3 weeks ago sounds better. Think that tells it's own tale. Will get those pics up soon as my usb will allow me, thanks for the comments. And I know it still makes it a counterfeit even if it has true tuners, pick ups etc but all I was saying is it's more important to em as an individual that it sounds good, plays good and is made of the materials it is supposed to be made of than concerning myself with Gibsons losss but sure I want this stopped and I have emailed Amazon and they know the score, lets see what they do though.

[AlanH]

There are a lot of presumptions in your post

 

if the only proof is the word of the seller,

 

now that's not really much.

 

 

I accept that it's not proof but it is evidence nonetheless.

 

I have no reason to doubt the explanation of the Chinese importer. What's more it's the first time we've seen an explanation of what happens. The fact that he sees no wrong in what he's written confirms to me that that Chinese manufacturing culture does not care about such things as authenticity and maintenance of standards. How many times have we heard about unsafe products coming out of China e.g. lead paint in children's toys.

[ronskie]

just to add as far as the woods concerned it's a heavy guitar so not mdf I would presume. The seller stated the guitar was new on amazon and in no way mentioned it was a second so I have faith I will get my money back and postage, less of course what it costs me to send it back but more importantly I think is that the guitars are turning up on amazon a well respected and legitimate retail giant and that's the only reason I went ahead because the price was too good to be true and I had serious doubts but I thought amazon wouldn't sell fakes even through third party outlets because I assumed they would be properly vetted and so I went ahead witht the purchase. That's worrying because on amazon now there is a at least 10 guitars at same price roughly by 7 or 8 sellers(all guitar shops)

[ronskie]

I accept it could very well be sneaked out of the factory and some sort of dirty dealing going on just as much as it could be fake. Just not real either way and I wanted a real epiphone les paul standard. Will get one from the authorised dealer I got my special 2 from now, just ahve to save some more.

[ronskie]

supersonic 101 am I correct in thinking your comment meant the little slits in the "o" and "p" are supposed to be there? because I phoned the registered gibson dealer in glasgow to check my guitar with him and he said the slashes in the "o" and "p" was a sign it was a fake. so basically the "o" is not a complete circle there's a littleverticle slash at the top. That's what he told me anyway.

[Whitmore Willy]

the price was too good to be true

 

O.K. Lesson learned.

Moving on....

This I do not know for sure but....I thought that the law in your country says that if you can prove it is fake,

you are entitled to your money back without returning the product?

 

Willy

[AlanH]

just to add as far as the woods concerned it's a heavy guitar so not mdf I would presume. The seller stated the guitar was new on amazon and in no way mentioned it was a second so I have faith I will get my money back and postage, less of course what it costs me to send it back but more importantly I think is that the guitars are turning up on amazon a well respected and legitimate retail giant and that's the only reason I went ahead because the price was too good to be true and I had serious doubts but I thought amazon wouldn't sell fakes even through third party outlets because I assumed they would be properly vetted and so I went ahead witht the purchase. That's worrying because on amazon now there is a at least 10 guitars at same price roughly by 7 or 8 sellers(all guitar shops)

 

 

Just to add myself. The MDF thing came about because of a recent post about an otherwise flawless Epi LP Custom which turned out to be made of MDF. The would be buyer is a very experienced guitarist and forumite so he knew what to look for. However, as a woodworker, he checked the cavities and, to his shock, the guitar was made of MDF. It is my understanding (although I may have misinterpreted the post) that this guitar was a few years old. This may cast doubt as to whether the fakers have caught up with the 'flaws to look out for' based on postings on places such as this and the mylespaul forum.

 

Alan

[AlanH]

I accept it could very well be sneaked out of the factory and some sort of dirty dealing going on just as much as it could be fake. Just not real either way and I wanted a real epiphone les paul standard. Will get one from the authorised dealer I got my special 2 from now, just ahve to save some more.

 

Try Thomann.de

 

It's a very well respected German authorised dealership and, because of the Euro/£ exchange rate, you can get very good prices. My LP Studio Deluxe came from Thomann. I was worried about the trans continental journey but it came packaged very well indeed and was mint/unopened.

 

Alan

[Southpaw]

The seller stated the guitar was new on amazon and in no way mentioned it was a second so I have faith I will get my money back and postage, less of course what it costs me to send it back but more importantly I think is that the guitars are turning up on amazon a well respected and legitimate retail giant and that's the only reason I went ahead because the price was too good to be true ...

 

What happens when you send it back (at your cost) and they now have the guitar along with your "too good to be true" purchase price? Will they say ronskie who? I hope not.

[ronskie]

[ronskie]

I have got more pics to upload not great quality because I used my mobile and as it's late here and at home had crappy night mode on which isn't great on this phone. Still having trouble with my usb and bluetooth(not my day!)

To answer some comments - the company that sold me it don't accept it is a fake and rather it's a b grade flawed one so proving it's a 100% fake by pointing out its flaws doesn't mean it's definitely a fake, also you still have to send guitar back before getting refund here(so they can sell it to some other chump, I know!) and I am sure I will get my money back eventually because even if I don't from that company I will from amazon in what they call an a to z buyers guarantee up to the sum of 2000 pound so I should be ok.

[ronskie]

thanks alanh for dealer info etc. I dare not open up this to inspect the elctrics, may find some chinese refugees in the back no doubt with my luck lol besides apart from having a quick strum don't want to mess with too much incase I do something that will give the seller an excuse to refuse refund. Just to recap the seller has agreed to give me a refund not based on the fact it's a fake as they claim it's a second or b grade from the factory but because they have sold me something they say is new when they should have said reconditiones or b grade or whatever. It remains to be seen if I do get the refund though because this seller says a lot of things, mainly untruths. That's their stance on it. I don't know for sure either way if it's fake or a sneaked out flawed one.

[ronskie]

sorry pics are not very good.

[AlanH]

To be honest, ebay and amazon are doing the public a great diservice by allowing disreputable retail sellers to trade on their trusted sites. For every one person like yourself who comes on this forum and gets a guitar checked out there are probably another nine who have been stung and don't know it because they thought that it was bought through a trusted authorised source.

 

The other problem is that this kind of transaction is dragging down the real price of used Epiphones. People getting rid of these poorly set up, substandard guitars for a low price that they're nevertheless happy with because it was cheap in the first place.

 

Alan

[ronskie]