Andy R Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 According to this article Gibson has put out five different TOM bridges. It talks about the 3 point / top adjust bridge you have and the Schaller long travel bridge. So the one you have may be a Schaller.... I would contact them. My link Duane again, good information but as I see you are reading this post as I am replying to this I am sure you are getting to the point to where I found the Gibson Patent for this bridge which is pretty much declaring the "3 point" and the "top adjust" as what is unique about the product for it to be considered for a patent license. I'm pretty sure this is just a bridge they tried out probably on a couple hundred or less E2's and either something went south with the patent, people didn't like them, or they just lost interest in them. I really appreciate you taking time to look into this. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 E/2's came with a standard Nashville bridge. That is not the original bridge, doesn't even look like a Gibson bridge at all. Its not original and not even Gibson That's not a Gibson bridge, but there were some Gibson & Epi saddles that were nylon in the 60's. John Lennon's Casino has nylon saddles. Craig Actually early Gibsons from 70 to 74 had nylon bridges too. ABR1 Harmonica And the weird bridge configuration on the SG100, 200's and 250's Ok after more research I have the definitive answer to my own question but wanted to share with you all incase you might have some interest in this as it ends up being kind of interesting. So as I posted previously I happened across the Patent Application for this bridge which also lists the inventor which provided me the following information: 1. The Inventors name: Rendal Wall ( worked at the kalamazoo Gibson factory as well as his father. He was one of many that stayed in kalamazoo and continued to work for "The Heritage" Guitar Company. He is now retired but still works there to this day. You should google this guy and see some of the things he is responsible for in Gibson's history ( Namely fixing a 30 year old rift between Bill Monroe and Gibson as well as multiple inventions (he also invented and developed the TP-6 bridge as well) 2. Patent Owner is Norlin Industries ( which is Gibson) So this is a genuine Gibson made bridge! and it was called "The Top Adjust Tune O Matic" Not being satisfied with this little bit of information and after doing some internet sleuthing. I called Mr. Wall and spoke to him directly on the telephone to see if he could/would provide me some more information about this bridge. Mr. Wall was very nice and after determining what my motives were ( which I told him I just happened to stumble across this bridge and his name by wanting to fix up an E2 and all the trouble I had finding out about the bridge, the lack of availability and the lack of information on it as well as the dispute we have here concerning wether or not they were Gibson bridges and if they were installed by the factory) He got a little chuckle out of that. The following is the key takeaways I got from the conversation with him: 1. He verified that he did indeed invent the bridge and that's when he told me he invented the TP-6 as well. 2. He verified that they did start putting these bridges on a mixture of gibson Models in late 82 (including the E2! he also mentioned that they may be on some 345 and 355 models?) to start introducing them to the guitar market around the time of the NAMM show. He wasn't sure of exactly how many were produced or what all models they installed them on but he said he thought they only produced and installed them on some models for approximately a year and a half to two years then he said they just pretty much completely stopped using them all together. He wasn't exactly sure why but he thought that maybe for the time they were a little to complex or more of a hassle to set-up than most guitar players were used to. I mentioned the hassle of setting up a floyd Rose and he mentioned the similarity to the current floyd and the TP-6 which I deduced seemed to be kind of a coincidence that floyd came out with the fine tuning bridge around the same time that Gibson quit using the TP-6. He also mentioned the similarity in design to the schaller bridges to his design which seems to have occurred around the same time as well. Also keep in mind that this is all happening when Gibson is moving to Nashville and he and a bunch of the original Gibson employees were staying behind to work for The Heritage Guitar company. I can imagine that that information and communication concerning what was happening during the transition was minimal between Gibson and the guys that were staying behind. Final analysis: 1. We now have a name for these bridges when we see them on E2's and possibly other 82-84 era Gibson models - Gibson Top Adjust Tune O Matic 2. They can easily be identified since the bridge pins don't go through the top, the saddle's adjusting/retaining screw goes through the bottom of the bridge block and has a flat end screwdriver slot on both ends of the retaining screw, the bottom of the bridge block has 3 pin holes on each side so that the whole bridge can be compensated back and forth and side to side. Mr. Wall also told me that this facilitated for using the same bridge for left or right hand guitars. They might also have steel or brass saddle inserts as well as nylon. 3. They were installed as OEM "original" bridges verifiably on an unknown amount of Explorer E2's between 82-84 and possibly a few other models (Yet to be determined) 4. They seem to be pretty rare from what I gathered out of what Mr. Wall said although he couldn't provide any real estimates but I would have to guess it is less than a thousand ( again purely speculation that I hope to better verify at some point) but after only finding one on ebay out of 16,000 some odd bridge listings I would give it a rare item stamp. Even Mr. Wall doesn't own one but says he occasionally runs across parts for them at the heritage facility and was kind enough to offer to send me information on what parts he finds when he stumbles across them. Summary - I learned a lot on this little quest and got to speak to a pretty cool guy that has seen a lot of Gibson History and innovation. Hopefully this knowledge benefits the whole Gibson community and people will start reporting when they spot one of these bridges on a guitar. I think it has uncovered some little known Gibson history that wasn't widely known before. Maybe it will make the guitars with these bridges a little more collectable and unique? Who knows? Who knows these bridges might be the next "gotta have it for the ultimate tone" gadget that people will start charging out the A$$ for like a PAF???? Ya never know. And a Final Proposal - I vote that we in the guitar community start calling these bridges the "Rendal Wall Bridge" Let's give an innovator some credit! Thanks for everyones time and let me know if you see any of these in pics or for sale etc... Maybe we could start a dedicated "Rendal Wall Bridge sighting" sticky post what do you think Duane? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigh Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Thanks for all the great info. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laaz Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 [lol] I used to collect Explorers & had 4 E/2's as well as just about every other model Explorer made besides the 50's models. I forgot Duane is the resident "Norlin" expert. You guys are too funny. I give up... your right. 1982 E/2 1983 E/2 Somewhere in between there they threw in a couple of those strange bridges just because... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 [lol] I used to collect Explorers & had 4 E/2's as well as just about every other model Explorer made besides the 50's models. I forgot Duane is the resident "Norlin" expert. You guys are too funny. I give up... your right. 1982 E/2 1983 E/2 Somewhere in between there they threw in a couple of those strange bridges just because... Lazz, I knew you'd eventually come around however begrudgingly I did a quick general search on ebay for Gibson 1982 and 1983 and 1984. I didn't find any of these on any of the 83 or 84 gibsons listed but I did find these in 82 listings 1982 E2 1982 Flying V 1982 Flying V looks like 82 was the main year for these. Maybe they just put them on a batch for the Namm Show and then sold them off later.... Hope we can be friends Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 30, 2010 Author Share Posted November 30, 2010 Lazz, I knew you'd eventually come around however begrudgingly I did a quick general search on ebay for Gibson 1982 and 1983 and 1984. I didn't find any of these on any of the 83 or 84 gibsons listed but I did find these in 82 listings 1982 E2 1982 Flying V 1982 Flying V looks like 82 was the main year for these. Maybe they just put them on a batch for the Namm Show and then sold them off later.... Hope we can be friends Andy Actually I found out the Purple V is an 83 so there is one for that year anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 30, 2010 Author Share Posted November 30, 2010 [lol] I used to collect Explorers & had 4 E/2's as well as just about every other model Explorer made besides the 50's models. I forgot Duane is the resident "Norlin" expert. You guys are too funny. I give up... your right. 1982 E/2 1983 E/2 Somewhere in between there they threw in a couple of those strange bridges just because... Hey Laaz This should make your head spin right off! Ebay Listed 1981 E2 "All Original" with Kahler Trem. I have to say that yes I am quite skeptical that the E/2 ever came with a factory Kahler installed. Especially since the Kahler really wasn't introduced until 1982. No I'm not calling Kahler to find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob74 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Lazz, I knew you'd eventually come around however begrudgingly I did a quick general search on ebay for Gibson 1982 and 1983 and 1984. I didn't find any of these on any of the 83 or 84 gibsons listed but I did find these in 82 listings 1982 E2 1982 Flying V 1982 Flying V looks like 82 was the main year for these. Maybe they just put them on a batch for the Namm Show and then sold them off later.... Hope we can be friends Andy Hi Andy, I am using this forum very infrequently, but eventually managed to find back my old login... I had my mind set on an E2, and the seller of the E2 in your first link above mailed me the info about the bridge (he got it from you I suppose), as I too was doubting its originality. Now I bought it and am waiting for it to arrive! By the way - should the bridge ever need a saddle replacement in the future - are the posts also suiting a Nashville type? Kind regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi Andy, I am using this forum very infrequently, but eventually managed to find back my old login... I had my mind set on an E2, and the seller of the E2 in your first link above mailed me the info about the bridge (he got it from you I suppose), as I too was doubting its originality. Now I bought it and am waiting for it to arrive! By the way - should the bridge ever need a saddle replacement in the future - are the posts also suiting a Nashville type? Kind regards, Rob Hey Rob, Sorry I didn't even know this post was still up. Unfortunately with the Ren Wall Top adjust saddles you can't replae them with nashville saddles because the intonation set screw is in the top not the side. You might be able to bastardize something to work but I would probably just put the bridge away and stick a nashville on it for playing as the bridge posts I believe are the same. I hope you got your new E2 and are digging it. Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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