J-45 True Vintage dilemma

[diogo]

greetings folks,

 

it's been a while since i last posted here, so: hi everyone.

 

i'm currently facing a little dilemma here, regarding my next J-45 (i've owned 2 so far, a 2005 J-45 and a Norlin J-50), but eventually sold both. for the first time in my life i can pony up for a new Gibson, hence thinking about the true vintage J-45 and needing some info on it (i've searched the forum for opinions on these but would like some fresh feedback)...

 

sadly, i cannot try the guitar before i get it (from a major music store in Germany - Thomann), but that's also true for everything else i might get from ebay.us for instance, since i'm in Lisbon, Portugal.

 

my dilemma is as follows...i've been buying guitars for a while, and have a gibson made '63 Epi 12 string (the b-25 model), a Kalamazoo KG-11 (looking for a KG-14 if anyone has one for sale at a reasonable price), a '50s Stella, etc. this to say that i have developed a taste for the "real thing", so to speak. it is in fact different, i've been watching the ebay auctions recently, and there are several J45s and J50s from the '50s (i only want one from the 50s, no adj bridge and with the teadrop guard) and some, not all, seem to fetch what a j-45 true vintage goes for new.

 

again, trying is, sadly, not an option on either case, whichever direction i choose to go, but it's particularly worrying in the ebay case, since it's a lot of money for a 50 + year old guitar that, by every account, can have problems that the seller is not disclosing or aware of. my experience with vintage gibsons makes a bit weary as well, since i've tried a few and some had really stiff action, which is something that simply cannot happen and also indicates other problems.

 

that aside, i much prefer the finishes on vintage gibsons than the ones on the reissues. despite letting the grain come through, i find that the glossy finishes on the reissues are very unattractive compared to what 50 years do to a finish. there's also the wood aging factor, having owned a 2005 one, but having played some 50s and 60s examples, the tone and harmonic content and rich sound is still not there, despite being close. but a 50 year advance is a nice thing, if at all possible.

 

i suppose what i'm asking is how vintage the true vintage J-45 really is. i'm torn between getting that or taking the risk on US based 50s vintage model, with the logistic nightmare that getting it here involves.

 

the advanced jumbo bracing worries me a bit...sure, even a rosewood J-45 still sounds like a J-45, but i don't really understand the choice for advanced jumbo bracing with this model. i would also like to see some pictures from the folks that own these, if at all possible.

 

i'm sure i'm forgetting some stuff, but it'll come to me eventually...i would end this already very long post (apologies) by asking about the finish, and general sunburst tone....is the finish aged in any way? and is the sunburst generally darker than the regular models?

 

thank you very much in advance for any help.

[guitarstrummer]

Welcome back to the forum. Sounds to me like the choice for you would actually be the Legend J-45. The cost is more, but it has all the things you're looking for. The TV model is a very good one. Many prefer the AJ bracing. It gives it a louder punch.

[diogo]

Welcome back to the forum. Sounds to me like the choice for you would actually be the Legend J-45. The cost is more' date=' but it has all the things you're looking for. The TV model is a very good one. Many prefer the AJ bracing. It gives it a louder punch.[/quote']

 

thanks Mike!

 

I refrain from looking at the 1942 to tell you the truth, my brain might just get the idea i can actually afford it...

 

it's really not an option i'm afraid..i wish! but i really can't.

[Red 333]

greetings folks' date='

 

ithe advanced jumbo bracing worries me a bit...sure, even a rosewood J-45 still sounds like a J-45, but i don't really understand the choice for advanced jumbo bracing with this model.

[/quote']

 

The Advanced Jumbo style bracing is used because that's the bracing Gibson jumbos had originally. J35s and early 45s had this type (as did someof the LG family early on). Since the bracing was closer to the soundhole, and more widely spaced, it left a lot of the top to vibrate without being damped by a braces. Over time, the bracing was moved away from the sound hole (which required a reduction in the angle of the X) in an effort to provide more strength to tops, especially the bridge area. Some say the extra support under the top changed the characteristics of the sound and projection. Someone here will be able to tell you when this change occurred.

 

I don't think the AJ bracing should concern you. It's preferred by many.

 

Red 333

[diogo]

 

The Advanced Jumbo style bracing is used because that's the bracing Gibson jumbos had originally. J35s and early 45s had this type (as did someof the LG family early on). Since the bracing was closer to the soundhole' date=' and more widely spaced, it left a lot of the top to vibrate without being damped by a braces. Over time, the bracing was moved away from the sound hole (which required a reduction in the angle of the X) in an effort to provide more strength to tops, especially the bridge area. Some say the extra support under the top changed the characteristics of the sound and projection. Someone here will be able to tell you when this change occurred.

 

I don't think the AJ bracing should concern you. It's preferred by many.

 

Red 333

[/quote']

 

thank you very much for that reply Red, really helps put things into perspective.

 

my main concern is tone, since i know i can live with the bozeman finishes (i had a 2005 and it was fine, not ideal - i like to see real rugged wood, not gloss - but i know i can live with it and it'll wear off a bit with the years)...again, my main concern is tone, with my reference being the first Dylan record, more specifically song for woody. now i just need to know if the TV will nail that..

[Rambler]

Diogo says "what i'm asking is how vintage the true vintage J-45 really is."

 

To my ear, slopes of the 40s'-50s are dry and woody, with a crackling edge. Tubby bass, not snappy. "Saturated midrange" (Russ Barrenberg). Crisp, bright trebles.

 

The TVs Ive played rippled with sound, whereas old slopes crackled. They were looser, with very quick response and generated more overtones. Like a 4X10 super reverb vs a dry 3x10 '62 concert. A lot of people are going to prefer that sound, but based on the guitars you have and like, this might not fill the bill.

 

Some other options. The adi-topped '42 has the dry punchiness but is mellower than 40s slopes Ive had my hands on. Ditto the OJ reissue. 54 bassman vs 62 Concert. Cost of the 42 is around entry for the vintage market. An OJ at 2.6k is under. I wouldnt rule out a std 45. Although several Ive tried were thin/harsh, I did try one recently that had that classic crispness--just need to "mature" a little. Good luck!

[Rambler]

PS re the bracing. The Fab Flattops book says that the angle of the bracing on the AJ was a tad wider ,103 deg. vs 102 for the J45s, for a slightly looser response.

 

Re the "Song for Woody" sound. The Historic I mentioned was close, for a newbie. The adi 42 & Oj were mellower--didnt have that Sitlka crispness. The TV was kind of an "uber" version, more reverby. Hope that helps.

[zeebee]

Having recently acquired a '59 J50, my advice would be to hold out for the "real McCoy". E Bay is a scary place I agree (almost all the Vintage Gibsons I've seen there lately look to be full of issues) however, there are a number of very reputable dealers that on occaission, have great vintage on sale. In Canada for example, Folkway Music and the 12th Fret are both exceptional and you can be sure that what you are buying is as they have described. Both also have repair facilities specializing in Vintage geets. Contact places like this and let them know what you are looking for and then have patience. Dealing with reputable, established shops will greatly reduce risk.

There is no substitute for a 50 year old Vintage.

Good Luck.

[diogo]

Diogo says "what i'm asking is how vintage the true vintage J-45 really is."

 

To my ear' date=' slopes of the 40s'-50s are dry and woody, with a crackling edge. Tubby bass, not snappy. "Saturated midrange" (Russ Barrenberg). Crisp, bright trebles.

 

The TVs Ive played rippled with sound, whereas old slopes crackled. They were looser, with very quick response and generated more overtones. Like a 4X10 super reverb vs a dry 3x10 '62 concert. A lot of people are going to prefer that sound, but based on the guitars you have and like, this might not fill the bill.

 

Some other options. The adi-topped '42 has the dry punchiness but is mellower than 40s slopes Ive had my hands on. Ditto the OJ reissue. 54 bassman vs 62 Concert. Cost of the 42 is around entry for the vintage market. An OJ at 2.6k is under. I wouldnt rule out a std 45. Although several Ive tried were thin/harsh, I did try one recently that had that classic crispness--just need to "mature" a little. Good luck! [/quote']

 

thanks for the reply jkinnama. your description of 40s/50s gibsons is spot on with my limited experience. hehe, your amp analogy is as funny as insightful.

 

i've thought about the original jumbo many times (the '42 is out of my league for a reissue, i'dd just rather invest in the real thing for that kind of money), but i know i wouldn't be satisfied with it model wise. as silly as it may sound, tone is the more important thing of course, but i'm looking for the guitar of my life, so looks play a big part as well. it's either a rugged J45, or a butterscotch J50, i know i won't settle for anything else and would regret it in the long run.

 

even with a reissue, i know i'dd only be partly satisfied, but that would be something i could live with. another model, not so much....no matter how gorgeous they all are...there's an OJ on ebay right now, and there's a J35 for peanuts on ebay.uk...if only money wasn't an issue!

[diogo]

PS re the bracing. The Fab Flattops book says that the angle of the bracing on the AJ was a tad wider ' date='103 deg. vs 102 for the J45s, for a slightly looser response.

 

Re the "Song for Woody" sound. The Historic I mentioned was close, for a newbie. The adi 42 & Oj were mellower--didnt have that Sitlka crispness. The TV was kind of an "uber" version, more reverby. Hope that helps.[/quote']

 

funny, i was just reading my copy...wondering if the new revised version is out yet...supposedly it has a lot more pictures...

 

thanks for warning me about the TV...seriously...this is really the kind of help i'm looking for and i shouldn't rush this one.

[diogo]

Having recently acquired a '59 J50' date=' my advise would be to hold out for the "real McCoy". E Bay is a scary place I agree (almost all the Vintage Gibsons I've seen there lately look to be full of issues) however, there are a number of very reputable dealers that on occaission, have great vintage on sale. In Canada for example, Folkway Music and the 12th Fret are both exceptional and you can be sure that what you are buying is as they have described. Both also have repair facilities specializing in Vintage geets. Contact places like this and let them know what you are looking for and then have patience. Dealing with reputable, established shops will greatly reduce risk.

There is no substitute for a 50 year old Vintage.

Good Luck.[/quote']

 

thanks a lot for the tips zeebee...i think you're right. i'm gonna email the folks at folkways, the prices seem reasonable and the descriptions are very encouraging...like they don't have nothing to hide - refreshing.

[guitarstrummer]

 

funny' date=' i was just reading my copy...wondering if the new revised version is out yet...supposedly it has a lot more pictures...

 

thanks for warning me about the TV...seriously...this is really the kind of help i'm looking for and i shouldn't rush this one. [/quote']

 

I'm on the list to get one from Amazon.com, but they continually postpone the release date.

[diogo]

 

I'm on the list to get one from Amazon.com' date=' but they continually postpone the release date. [/quote']

 

i hope it's not just new pictures though...i really hope some of the content is updated as well.

[Mikey62]

For the sake of convenience and expediency, I would highly recommend the J-35 reissue at Fuller's Vintage guitar. It is not on the web site but it is a really good guitar.

 

You will not find the dry crackling sound in today's guitars. I don't know if that is a function of age on a guitar. However, the latest Gibsons are very good and I think they represent good value to the buyer.

 

Too many of the 50's models have issues and your location is difficult unless you can find a reputable dealer who has the rare pristine piece and will work with you on the distance issue.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike

[zeebee]

For the sake of convenience and expediency' date=' I would highly recommend the J-35 reissue at Fuller's Vintage guitar. It is not on the web site but it is a really good guitar.

 

You will not find the dry crackling sound in today's guitars. I don't know if that is a function of age on a guitar. However, the latest Gibsons are very good and I think they represent good value to the buyer.

 

Too many of the 50's models have issues and your location is difficult unless you can find a reputable dealer who has the rare pristine piece and will work with you on the distance issue.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike[/quote']

 

 

Your comment on the quality of the '50s models is that based on your review of magazine pictures??? All of the research I did would indicate quality control issues didnt establish themselves until production/ownership changes in the post '61 period . Up till that point it is considered the "Golden Era"of Gibson. One hardly needs a "pristine" piece from the 40's/50's to have a great guitar. Finally, I would never recommend anyone buy a guitar for the "sake of convenience and expediency".

[Modac]

I think its a perfectly appropriate comment, as to the for sale condition of some vintage guitars. There are just so many absurdly priced, abused, pure crap guitars, that have so many issues, they're in need of a guitar lobotomy. Aside from coughing up the ridiculous prices, you need a reserve of at least a grand just to straighten some of them out----that's until until the next problem inevitably arises.

[zeebee]

I think its a perfectly appropriate comment' date=' as to the for sale condition of some vintage guitars. There are just so many absurdly priced, abused, pure crap guitars, that have so many issues, they're in need of a guitar lobotomy. Aside from coughing up the ridiculous prices, you need a reserve of at least a grand just to straighten some of them out----that's until until the next problem inevitably arises. [/quote']

 

Uh yeah..........and there are many that are absolutuely amazing, in a tone class largely untouched by the new generation of overbuilt tone dead wood tanks driven by an era of warranty scarred manufacturers. Perhaps the labotomy should rest with the buyer that acquires the old project guitars without performing due diligence. For me, I'll take a players vintage over 99% of the new stuff. Besides the day you walk out of the guitar store with your new geet your outta pocket 25-50%. Vintage, likely to appreciate the first year. Great tone, no depreciation.....you do the math.

[TM]

The J50 Dylan used was a 1946 with the old script, no banner. In the last 7 years of looking I have seen one for sale. This was the first year of the J50, they did make some J45N during the war. These guitars are quite rare and bring big money. I would think a Sript logo J50 would bring big dollars due to the Dylan connection. We had some conversations here about a reissue. Gibson could do a "Folksinger J50" obvious Dylan reference without his name. I think they would sell and wouldn't have be be anything too special about the build, although I doubt they would be as lightly built.

 

I've had a lot of 50s J45, J45, SJ, C&W. I had 4 from 56, a 47 J50 and a 63 J50 in the house at the same time. They all sounded different even the guitars from the same year! The 63 is the only one that had an adjustable bridge and it sounded as good as any one them, except for the 47 J50.

 

I still have the 47 J50 and a 47 J45 and they are very different guitars in weight and sound. The finish on the J45 from this era is pretty heavy the J50 is a much lighter finish. The J50 has the sound of the lightly built Banner head guitars.

 

They made a lot of J45, J50s during the 50s so you can find a very nice condition guitar if you shop around. Look on gbase there a quite a few, harder to find the tear drop pickguard. They made fewer J50s during those years.

 

I don't know the prices of the new TV models, but I think they would be less expensive than a late 40s early 50s J50.

 

I may be selling both of my J50s, if I do I will post them here.

 

Terry

[Modac]

ZB.....I don't know where you live, but I'll tell you , it's been a long time since I've come across a vintage guitar, 50s or later, that didn't have some serious issues---some resolved, most not. And many 50s Gibsons aren't all that, as far as tone goes. I've owned several . I had a Mntana made J-45 that was a better sounding guitar than any 50s J-45 I ever played or owned. And they were overbuilt by wartime and prewar Gibson standards, anyway. If you want old time vibe. lightness of build, and decent quality, I think an independent builder is the way to go----unless you enjoy dealing with the residue of decades of neglect and abuse. Too many junk dealers and junk vintage guitars out there. And I really don't care about "investing" in guitars, or whether they appreciate---as long as I can appreciate them.

[jefleppard]

 

The Advanced Jumbo style bracing is used because that's the bracing Gibson jumbos had originally. J35s and early 45s had this type (as did someof the LG family early on). Since the bracing was closer to the soundhole' date=' and more widely spaced, it left a lot of the top to vibrate without being damped by a braces. Over time, the bracing was moved away from the sound hole (which required a reduction in the angle of the X) in an effort to provide more strength to tops, especially the bridge area. Some say the extra support under the top changed the characteristics of the sound and projection. Someone here will be able to tell you when this change occurred.

 

I don't think the AJ bracing should concern you. It's preferred by many.

 

Red 333

[/quote']

 

was bridge lifting a problem with AJ-braced guitars back in the golden age?

if so, has anything changed with regards to production to prevent the newer guitar's tops from lifting?

[Rambler]

Im inclined to disagree that builders cant get the tone. Age enters into it, but if you build em light, keep the lacquer thin, and voice em right, the tone should be there. Or at least be in the ball park. Its a production choice to do otherwise. I think the folks in Bozeman are doing a good job but as Ive said in other threads, I think choices being made up the corporate ladder are keeping them from fully nailing the vintage equation.

[diogo]

For the sake of convenience and expediency' date=' I would highly recommend the J-35 reissue at Fuller's Vintage guitar. It is not on the web site but it is a really good guitar.

 

You will not find the dry crackling sound in today's guitars. I don't know if that is a function of age on a guitar. However, the latest Gibsons are very good and I think they represent good value to the buyer.

 

Too many of the 50's models have issues and your location is difficult unless you can find a reputable dealer who has the rare pristine piece and will work with you on the distance issue.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike[/quote']

 

hello Mike, i actually had a shot at a J-35 in the UK, i suppose it's the same model you're referring to..i partly agree with you, that it's risky to get a 50s guitar for so much money, untried and unseen, but some folks are kind enough to go through the effort of making videos and soundclips for you to reassure you, etc...i'm doing it right now for a 1953. i suppose that, if i go with this one, i'll have to trust the fella that's selling it that internally, etc, everything's ok.

 

but, for as risky as it is, i have no doubt in my mind that some of the stuff out there is worth the risk.

[diogo]

The J50 Dylan used was a 1946 with the old script' date=' no banner. In the last 7 years of looking I have seen one for sale. This was the first year of the J50, they did make some J45N during the war. These guitars are quite rare and bring big money. I would think a Sript logo J50 would bring big dollars due to the Dylan connection. We had some conversations here about a reissue. Gibson could do a "Folksinger J50" obvious Dylan reference without his name. I think they would sell and wouldn't have be be anything too special about the build, although I doubt they would be as lightly built.

 

I've had a lot of 50s J45, J45, SJ, C&W. I had 4 from 56, a 47 J50 and a 63 J50 in the house at the same time. They all sounded different even the guitars from the same year! The 63 is the only one that had an adjustable bridge and it sounded as good as any one them, except for the 47 J50.

 

I still have the 47 J50 and a 47 J45 and they are very different guitars in weight and sound. The finish on the J45 from this era is pretty heavy the J50 is a much lighter finish. The J50 has the sound of the lightly built Banner head guitars.

 

They made a lot of J45, J50s during the 50s so you can find a very nice condition guitar if you shop around. Look on gbase there a quite a few, harder to find the tear drop pickguard. They made fewer J50s during those years.

 

I don't know the prices of the new TV models, but I think they would be less expensive than a late 40s early 50s J50.

 

I may be selling both of my J50s, if I do I will post them here.

 

Terry

 

[/quote']

 

i remember the J50 reissue talks from the other forum. i wish folks could go through with it, but i don't think it would be cheap (as in the 2000 dollar range or something of that sort)..

[diogo]

Im inclined to disagree that builders cant get the tone. Age enters into it' date=' but if you build em light, keep the lacquer thin, and voice em right, the tone should be there. Or at least be in the ball park. Its a production choice to do otherwise. I think the folks in Bozeman are doing a good job but as Ive said in other threads, I think choices being made up the corporate ladder are keeping them from fully nailing the vintage equation. [/quote']

 

can you elaborate on the corporate ladder issue jkinnama? you're making me curious..

 

i too see no reason to not do things correctly, if you're gonna do them at all, might as well do them right i guess, and i don't understand bozeman folks not going for the most accurate vintage replicas possible, and keep the "modern" details for other, potentially new, models.

[diogo]

 

hello Mike' date=' i actually had a shot at a J-35 in the UK, i suppose it's the same model you're referring to..i partly agree with you, that it's risky to get a 50s guitar for so much money, untried and unseen, but some folks are kind enough to go through the effort of making videos and soundclips for you to reassure you, etc...i'm doing it right now for a 1953. i suppose that, if i go with this one, i'll have to trust the fella that's selling it that internally, etc, everything's ok.

 

but, for as risky as it is, i have no doubt in my mind that some of the stuff out there is worth the risk.

 

[/quote']

 

i will add that my kalamazoo KG-11 came with a simple setup and it's by far my favourite guitar, and we're talking about 1935. plays effortless, completely stable and sounds like a million bucks.