The quest for perfect tone.........

[Watersilk]

I think that everyone here has a dream sound, that ideal sound and tone that most probably inspired us to play......... I have the guitar, I'm trying to learn how to tweak the electrical components..... like pots and caps.... but this whole quest is to achieve a certain sound, that sound I expect from a '59 Les Paul.

 

Of course I want to turn up the distortion and induce feedback, loads of sustain and false harmonics..... but most amps can do that can't they? What I'm looking for is something much more difficult to obtain.... I'm looking for the sounds other '59's have achieved, Peter Green's throaty tone on Jenny (Live in Boston) or Billy Gibbons Blue Jean Blues, or from the first album, Just got back from baby's; I can also add some Gary Moore (playing a '59) to the list, I hope you get the point; these tracks to me are sounds which scream '59 Les Paul at it's finest, and let's face it, these sounds are what make this perhaps 'the' best electric guitar.

 

So what amplification do I need to achieve this? I am told that full valve/tube amps, without circuit boards of any kind are best (handwired). There is the Cornford Hurricane, and Blackstar's Artisan, and what about the German AC30 copy, the Ruby Riot by Framus, and is there a Marshall I should consider? I need a combo, and not a hugely powerful one, 30 watts is more than enough, something that can get it on at fairly low volumes, and also allows the signature of my '59 to shine through. I'm baffled by the choice out there; please, can anyone help narrow the search?

[Versatile]

There are many aspects to creating a great personal tone

 

Many players aspire to sounding 'exactly like' their hero guitarists

 

But IMO this can be frustrating and ultimately fruitless

 

A lot of tone comes from the brain and fingers etc.

 

IMX looking at valve specs can give some insight into tones produced by various amps

 

Marshall vs Vox vs Fender etc

 

And those beautiful hand wired PCB-free boutique amps from the small companies

 

All amps sound different whether in the house or on stage, and by venue size....so ambient acoustics are important

 

Possibly the best advice is not to commit too much money to the one 'perfect' solution which does not exist

 

Many guitarists have 2-3 or more amps to suit varying requirements...sometimes even 'what mood am I in today?'

 

30watt valve combos are an excellent base point....portable with manageable output....and choice of 1 or 2 speakers, or even an extension cab...

 

V

 

[stein]

i think you are on the right corse, but 30 watts is problably still too much.

 

these tones you desribe here i know well. you want to get those power tubes screaming. don't kid yourself into thinking that you will be able to get this sound you seek and still have headroom. the sound you get is when there is no headroom left.

 

marshalls have a great sound, and a great preamp distortion, but the REAL marshall distortion does not happen at any reasonable volume. in fact, a '58-'59 bassman sounds more like a cranked marshall than a marshall does at half volume. perhaps the sound you seek is a tweed type fender, like a deluxe.

 

also, to get power amp distortion, you need speakers that are low power relative to the amp. it isn't a blow speakers thing or a matter of making the speaker sick or damaged. it is a matter of the speaker reaching its limits of how much sound it can put out, which causes the power tubes to compress.

 

k, i'm drooling now.

[Watersilk]

There are many aspects to creating a great personal tone

 

Many players aspire to sounding 'exactly like' their hero guitarists

 

But IMO this can be frustrating and ultimately fruitless

 

A lot of tone comes from the brain and fingers etc.

 

IMX looking at valve specs can give some insight into tones produced by various amps

 

Marshall vs Vox vs Fender etc

 

And those beautiful hand wired PCB-free boutique amps from the small companies

 

All amps sound different whether in the house or on stage, and by venue size....so ambient acoustics are important

 

Possibly the best advice is not to commit too much money to the one 'perfect' solution which does not exist

 

Many guitarists have 2-3 or more amps to suit varying requirements...sometimes even 'what mood am I in today?'

 

30watt valve combos are an excellent base point....portable with manageable output....and choice of 1 or 2 speakers, or even an extension cab...

 

V

 

 

Hi V, (perhaps I should try typing that again......... Hi Versatile,

 

I used to want to emulate a particular artist, but it's more a sound that I'm after, and a sensitivity, because, as you said, your fingers create much of the tone and effects, and the brain..... well I'm still working on that one, I do have a brain, but like the guitar it still needs some work.

 

Your words "perfect solution" stung me...... because I'm also thinking that is true..... but V, please understand, I'm in deep water already, I live in a small house, have two acoustics and three electrics, and play them all through tiny acoustic amp; and oh yes, due to this growing collection of guitars and various bits.....I have a major problem, some would say she's called a wife.

 

Because I didn't know which electric guitar amp to buy, I bought a floor pod X3, and it's interesting to hear the 'simulated' sounds of many different amps, sound quality is really good (for an amp simulator) because I plug into the power stage of the amp, bypassing the amp's own pre amp, so it's not coloured in any way; but, this is a simulator, and I'm now foaming at the mouth to play through real valves. One thing the Pod has taught me, is the joy of sound choices, and as you say, each amp has it's own characteristics, for different occasions; the way we 'feel' at the time. I'm thinking that I need to find a good valve amp, one that I can find my own sounds on, and for variety and effects, plug the Pod into the FX loop. Failing this, get a divorce, go for your perfect solution, and acquire three different amps! For now though, I need to find that first one, I intend to go to the Cornford factory in April, they have a demo room there.

 

Thank you for your advice, it was great to read your words of wisdom! Keep posting, please!

[Watersilk]

i think you are on the right corse, but 30 watts is problably still too much.

 

these tones you desribe here i know well. you want to get those power tubes screaming. don't kid yourself into thinking that you will be able to get this sound you seek and still have headroom. the sound you get is when there is no headroom left.

 

marshalls have a great sound, and a great preamp distortion, but the REAL marshall distortion does not happen at any reasonable volume. in fact, a '58-'59 bassman sounds more like a cranked marshall than a marshall does at half volume. perhaps the sound you seek is a tweed type fender, like a deluxe.

 

also, to get power amp distortion, you need speakers that are low power relative to the amp. it isn't a blow speakers thing or a matter of making the speaker sick or damaged. it is a matter of the speaker reaching its limits of how much sound it can put out, which causes the power tubes to compress.

 

k, i'm drooling now.

Hahahahaha! This is brilliant! Get the "power tubes screaming"..... wow! I love the bit where you say you get the sound when there is no headroom left....... !!! If this is indeed the caes, then I see what you mean, 30 watts is probably over the top for practice sessions.....

 

So, now I know what 'headroom' means, extra volume after the sweet spot has been reached; but in this case, there shouldn't be any!

 

I've heard that Marshalls only give their best at unreasonable volume levels....... I will try to give the Fender Deluxe a try the next time I'm in London. Your last paragraph intrigues me, reaching the speaker's limits, causing the tubes to compress........ that's really interesting, meaning that if I get a 30 watt amp with a 30 watt speaker, I will have to drive the poor thing to the very edge to get those tubes screaming!

 

Thanks a lot Stein, some things to think over here.........

[GOODWOOD]

Thats the million $$$ question but I have a $100 answer at least imo to begin your quest for that "tone".

The MXR 10 band Graphic EQ.

I own everything from a Explorer E2,Strats,LPs and 2 Modernes and this little black box is a MUST.

I use 2 and I may me tempted to run a couple more for every guitar. I set my Marshall which has only 3 settings,leave it alone and use the MRX eq to tailor my sound. I use one for the brighter guitars,strat,Les Pauls,,, and another for the rounder,bassier guitars,Moderne,Wolfgang....

Basically use it to highlight something you like and reduce or eliminate what you do not.

Its amazing how just a tweak here and there, a little slide up on one specific freq can do more than endlessly experimenting with amps and pickups.

Also has a overrive slider and give some balls to the tamer guitars. As you can tell I really love this pedal.

That and the Decimator Gstring to cut out background hiss,feedback ect, crank the Marshall and tone chase till you are tone deaf.

 

BTW- I own a 59 ri vos running through a Marshall class 5 and 75% of the time use headphones which was why I bought this particular Marshall.

[Guest FarnsBarns]

Why don't you take your guitar to a large shop and try a load of amps. A lot of good shops have sound proof rooms for testing at high volumes.

[Guest FarnsBarns]

Why don't you take your guitar to a large shop and try a load of amps. A lot of good shops have sound proof rooms for testing at high volumes.

[Watersilk]

Why don't you take your guitar to a large shop and try a load of amps. A lot of good shops have sound proof rooms for testing at high volumes.

 

This is of course excellent advice, it's the only way to know what your getting, however, I live in a tropical desert, a long way from the good shops. I don't like taking my '59 on a aeroplane, sometimes I have great trouble persuading the airline staff that subjecting a guitar to a journey in the hold is not good. I remember once bargaining with a little Italian baggage handler over taking my acoustic with me in the cabin; I nearly missed the plane, after winning my battle......

 

What comes to my sparsely-populated part of the world is the low end of the market, and this is loaded by the importer because he has a monopoly.... a good find was a new Marshall MA 100 combo, which had a good review, but I read that it has to be pushed before it sounds it's best, far too powerful for my needs, a view supported by the responses on this forum. I'm going to London next month, so I'll be able to try different amps there.

 

Your LP looks amazing!

 

Cheers!

[littlejohnny]

hi,

 

you should look for Fender champ 57 tweed amp. It's a 5 watt amp, with only one knob. It's quit expensive for such a small amp, but this is the classic recording amp.

You'll get a lot of infos on the web, for example:

http://www.musicradar.com/gear/all/amplification/instrument-amps/guitar-combo-amps/1957-tweed-champ-combo-214382/review

 

Maybe its just because I want one of those....

[Watersilk]

hi,

 

you should look for Fender champ 57 tweed amp. It's a 5 watt amp, with only one knob. It's quit expensive for such a small amp, but this is the classic recording amp.

You'll get a lot of infos on the web, for example:

http://www.musicrada...o-214382/review

 

Maybe its just because I want one of those....

 

Hi ittleJohnny,

 

This is interesting! 5 watts should be adequate for home practice sessions, and as Stein wrote, "get the tubes screaming!" I also like the idea of simplicity, if you have a really good tone, why mess about with it, you can just get on with playing; I find myself spend too much time playing with my Pod X3, always thinking, perhaps the tone could be better if I use this amp, or these settings, when I really just want the tone, and have the decision of clear or distortion. There is one thing that bothers me though, were not Fender's early amps not designed around single coil pickups? I think my P90 equipped PRS would sing through this amp, but what of my Les Paul's humbuckers? The price is fine, I'm willing to pay around a £1,000, tempting to get something like this, and also an AC30 type of amp, or Marshall later for those occasions where volume is not an issue, or rather needed, and to move a little more air with one or two larger speakers. Reading the review for the Fender, I can't help feeling that someone somewhere has made a better job of the build with a boutique copy; the trouble with large companies who have made a name, is that they tend to sit back upon their laurels and neglect detail, especially those details which are hidden from view. At this price you should be getting something that has been hand-wired, and finished throughout with manic attention to perfection.

 

I would be interested to see what a small company who are feverishly keen to impress, have done with a very similar design. Thank you LittleJohnny, this must be very close to sonic blues perfection!

 

Does anyone have one of these, or an even better alternative?

 

Cheers!

[Guest FarnsBarns]

Windhoek is an amazing place, Namibia in general. I am a big fan of ZA, Zim, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, Zambia. All the southern African countries really. I'll be in Zambia next summer, maybe Zud Afrika this summer (winter really of course). I'd put up with having to fly to Europe for my gear to live down there!

 

Put a flatty on the braai, and some boerewors, open a cold Castle or Windhoek and have one for me. I'll play through my TSL60 for you.

[Watersilk]

hi,

 

you should look for Fender champ 57 tweed amp. It's a 5 watt amp, with only one knob. It's quit expensive for such a small amp, but this is the classic recording amp.

You'll get a lot of infos on the web, for example:

http://www.musicrada...o-214382/review

 

Maybe its just because I want one of those....

 

I was thinking actually, a hell of a price for one knob, but there again, I wouldn't wish to put a price upon mine!

I saw this amp in "The 10 best amps for blues" at http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/guitars/10-best-amps-for-blues-guitar-263987/3#content Not bad at all for a five watter! Because there must be a lot of competition now in the smaller amp market. Fender have no less than five amps in this line-up! Another amazing feat! I will certainly put this on my test list for when I go amp shopping.

[stein]

My personal favorites are the Victoria amps. For a hand built amp, they are actually quite good for the money. I am not sure how available they are to you, but if you get a chance to find a dealer that has some, It would be worth your while to get there.

 

Around here, I have to say that not many are too intimate with the hand wired fenders, but that is mainly because we have a victoria dealer and that is what everyone seems to go for. (It doesn't meant the fenders are not good or worse). But as for the cheaper cuircuit baord fenders, like the blues series or the reissues, all mostly agree that they do not sound pleasant or anything like the origionals at higher volumes.

 

I think my personal favorite would be the victoriette with el-84 tubes. I also really like the regal, but I am not sure if it really does the break up thing as well, but for that overdriven clean type of thing, it might be my fave. I actually ended up not getting the victoriette because I was concerned that it wouldn't be loud enough for gigging, and ended up with a victorilux, which I ended up taking to of the el-84's out anyway, and put in a '51 jensen, so it is back to about 15-18 watts.

[Michael. L.]

Hey Jeremy, I replied to you on your first intro post-go back and have a read of what I'm using or have used in the past

Marshall bluesbraker-killer amp

also fender bassman ltd-this amp loves any type of pedal -like I said-more than any amp

You don't really need to go for boutique amps as they can be tempermentle especially point to point-

Unless it's done well, I prefer PCB -printed circuit boards-for stability and consistency

 

Another main issue re your sound or what sound to achieve comes from primarily your preamp tubes more so than poweramp tubes

Let me know and I'll give you some info into the tubes I use

 

cheers, Mick from OZ!!!!

[stein]

Hey Jeremy, I replied to you on your first intro post-go back and have a read of what I'm using or have used in the past

Marshall bluesbraker-killer amp

also fender bassman ltd-this amp loves any type of pedal -like I said-more than any amp

You don't really need to go for boutique amps as they can be tempermentle especially point to point-

Unless it's done well, I prefer PCB -printed circuit boards-for stability and consistency

 

Another main issue re your sound or what sound to achieve comes from primarily your preamp tubes more so than poweramp tubes

Let me know and I'll give you some info into the tubes I use

 

cheers, Mick from OZ!!!!

Wow. You sure about this?

 

There is nothing wrong with getting a good sound the way you are, or using gear that you have in that fashion, and I would not knock it. However, You seem to have some opinions about the other way of doing things and using an amp that I don't think is acurrate.

 

For one, you mention botique amps as being inherently less tempermental. There are a lot of point to point or hand wired amps that are, but these are not usually considered "botique". Most amps that are considered botique have exactly the opposite reputations as far as being tempermental. But really, not all. It isn't a rule by any means, but certainly not a rule that they are less reliable. AS for actual experience on my part and those I know and have witnessed, the bassman reissue has the most problems when it comes to breaking down or working consistantly, compared to the victoria's and actual vintage amps that are serviced.

 

As for the preamp tubes making the most difference as opposed to power tubes, that is more a case to case thing but far more often than not, the power tubes make more of a drastic difference in tone, especially when the amp is being overdriven on the power section. This is more so personal experience as much as what I have observed in other poeples amps, but it seems to be the same results. I can also recall working on a freinds bassman reissue and replacing the power tubes with rca's made by far the biggest improvement compared to the other tube changes.

 

But this brings me to the real subject at hand; the way you are using the amps I am assuming is as a power amp and using pedals and the preamp stage to get the desired tone. This is a very valed way to get sound and many poeple do this with good results, and many records recorded this way even. But it is also a completely different thing than using the power amp distortion or getting tone that way, and a completely different camp. The recordings he mentioned were recorded this way. The examples he used to describe the tone he was after are this way.

 

I hope this is not taken wrong. Sometimes word of mouth and experience are not really the same thing, and we sometimes get different ideas as a result. For example, I have only read about what Gibbens used for those recordings and Gary Moore's, and then use my own experience as to what amps I have had or used. It's good to be clear, I can't learn anything if I assume.

 

I would be interested in what preamp tubes you have had good results with. I haven't tried any new ones for about 5 years, and my supply is gone. I'm going to need some new ones here pretty quick.

[Watersilk]

Windhoek is an amazing place, Namibia in general. I am a big fan of ZA, Zim, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, Zambia. All the southern African countries really. I'll be in Zambia next summer, maybe Zud Afrika this summer (winter really of course). I'd put up with having to fly to Europe for my gear to live down there!

 

Put a flatty on the braai, and some boerewors, open a cold Castle or Windhoek and have one for me. I'll play through my TSL60 for you.

 

Hahaha! Well, I don't know what a "flatty" is, however, the other 'b' words are most definitely familiar! We have a new beer on the market, Camelthorn, a German type wheat beer, you should try that on your next visit. You certainly get around! Yes, southern Africa is a magical place, and like collecting guitars, addictive; people here refer to it as a disease, once it gets into you blood.... your not going to leave. I also don't mind having to fly to England every six months or so to buy gear, or just to try things out. I plan to visit the Cornford factory when I'm next there, their amps are pretty ugly, but have great reviews. The TSL60 must be wonderful, where do you play it, with a group, gigging?

[Guest FarnsBarns]

Hahaha! Well, I don't know what a "flatty" is, however, the other 'b' words are most definitely familiar! We have a new beer on the market, Camelthorn, a German type wheat beer, you should try that on your next visit. You certainly get around! Yes, southern Africa is a magical place, and like collecting guitars, addictive; people here refer to it as a disease, once it gets into you blood.... your not going to leave. I also don't mind having to fly to England every six months or so to buy gear, or just to try things out. I plan to visit the Cornford factory when I'm next there, their amps are pretty ugly, but have great reviews. The TSL60 must be wonderful, where do you play it, with a group, gigging?

 

Flattys must be a ZA thing only. Basically, take a chicken, gut it, crush it flat and cook it on the braai, whole.

 

There's this wholesaler near us who imports all things African, I'll ask him about Camelthorn. I did get around a lot. I used to work in travel, got rather good at complex ticket contracts, ended up as a round the world ticket consultant and traveled a fair amount.

 

I like the TSL 60, not as loud as you might think, I can get it up into the middle third at home. It would certainly play a large pub/small club with headroom.

 

I bought it many years ago when I was in a band but the other guitarist/singer got addicted to heroin and became a problem so it drifted apart. I'd quite like to get a blues band going, we'll see. At the moment I just do casual projects with old friends I was in a band with over 15 years ago. One is now running a charity radio station along with disabled kids and he plays some of his stuff and their stuff. I am doing a recording with him soon (got postponed due to equipment failure).

 

I also have a little home studio but I'm still gathering equipment. Next step is a few SM57s and we're there but it's a small room so more than 3 people would be an issue.

[Michael. L.]

Wow. You sure about this?

 

There is nothing wrong with getting a good sound the way you are, or using gear that you have in that fashion, and I would not knock it. However, You seem to have some opinions about the other way of doing things and using an amp that I don't think is acurrate.

 

For one, you mention botique amps as being inherently less tempermental. There are a lot of point to point or hand wired amps that are, but these are not usually considered "botique". Most amps that are considered botique have exactly the opposite reputations as far as being tempermental. But really, not all. It isn't a rule by any means, but certainly not a rule that they are less reliable. AS for actual experience on my part and those I know and have witnessed, the bassman reissue has the most problems when it comes to breaking down or working consistantly, compared to the victoria's and actual vintage amps that are serviced.

 

As for the preamp tubes making the most difference as opposed to power tubes, that is more a case to case thing but far more often than not, the power tubes make more of a drastic difference in tone, especially when the amp is being overdriven on the power section. This is more so personal experience as much as what I have observed in other poeples amps, but it seems to be the same results. I can also recall working on a freinds bassman reissue and replacing the power tubes with rca's made by far the biggest improvement compared to the other tube changes.

 

But this brings me to the real subject at hand; the way you are using the amps I am assuming is as a power amp and using pedals and the preamp stage to get the desired tone. This is a very valed way to get sound and many poeple do this with good results, and many records recorded this way even. But it is also a completely different thing than using the power amp distortion or getting tone that way, and a completely different camp. The recordings he mentioned were recorded this way. The examples he used to describe the tone he was after are this way.

 

I hope this is not taken wrong. Sometimes word of mouth and experience are not really the same thing, and we sometimes get different ideas as a result. For example, I have only read about what Gibbens used for those recordings and Gary Moore's, and then use my own experience as to what amps I have had or used. It's good to be clear, I can't learn anything if I assume.

 

I would be interested in what preamp tubes you have had good results with. I haven't tried any new ones for about 5 years, and my supply is gone. I'm going to need some new ones here pretty quick.

[Michael. L.]

Hey Stein,

Firstly, I suppose boutique vs point to point vs PCB-I believe it's all personal and one amp from the other -even identical amps will differ to some degree

This is not to say boutique vs mass production is any less inferior, in fact some of the best amps are hand made and point to point- I am probably being a little cinical when I say "less stable" I've had some small issues and friends also with the above and have now reverted and happy with amps made with PCB- Doesn't mean though they're better, not by a long shot and was just quoting Watersilk re my experiences and preferences

Must remember too the here in OZ we run a full 240 volt system as possibly in Europe the regular 220-230 volt and to add on 2 identical amps operating on different voltages (even if this is minimal) can have an influence on your tone

Like I have previously mentioned -I run Marshall 50 watt plexi 1987x reissue from around 1997-pre effects loop and 100 watt plexi 1959slp reissue-effects loop made in 2009-

Love them to death

Fender 15 watt pro junior (limited tweed finish) from 1996- replaced the standard eminence speaker with Jensen alnico and as previously stated "saw the sunshine and smelt the roses" amazing tone difference and an absolute gem of an amp

My Marshall heads I run through a 2x12 closed back Orange cab-eventually I went away from 4x12-and the Orange cab with it's sheer depth has amazed me-

replaced the Celestion V30's -very fine speaker though- with 2x12 8ohms Jensen Blackbird alnico 100 watters and the absolute sweetness and openess of these speakers has astounded me. off course once again this is personal-primary reason for the swap over was that the 100 watt plexi would have shredded the Celestions in no time-

Anyway enough said-

Guitars-1997 Gibson Les Paul standard-very heavy guitar-no relief chambers and sustain and tone-killer-for Jazz, blues, rock anything you can through at it it does well

Gibosn '54 reissue black beauty custom made 1996 with alnico V and P90- also heavy guitar-I love the simplicity of the tones available from this guitar and check out my disqus thread on the Gibson main Les paul website under this particular guitar-

Effects-Wampler Pinnacle pedal-(brown sound) aka Eddie Van Halen sound although numerous other tones come from this baby,-I have used numerous pedals over the years and to date this is my favorite-check out reviews

Also Ibanez TS9 tubescreamer re issue from 1997-I prefer this to the TS808-again personal but I find the TS9 much warmer and the breakup of the overdrive is slightly extended

Going back to quote the valves

Have used numerous NOS over the years and cannot begin to mention any favourites as there have been numerous

As these are becoming rarer and the older they get you cannot be guaranteed any stability so I have now turned to new valves and am thrilled with some of these

What has worked best for me and my sound/tone are in the Marshalls- V1-EI 12ax7-must check for mircophonics with the EI and when you have scored a good one-keep it-

Alternatively I'll use JJ Tesla Ecc83's in V1- Electro Hamonix 12ax7EH in V2 and Sovtek 12ax7LPS in V3

All my power amp tubes in both Marshall are EL34 Winged "C"

Fender amp-V1 Sovtek 12ax7 WB and V2 Svetlana 12ax7- Power tubes are Sovtek EL84 M WXT plus -military speck-

The Marshall 100 watt plexi came standard with the Chinese 12ax7 but the generation 9-difference between these and gen 8 are the gen 9's have the octaganol go getter spacer instead of the round and to be honest are the least microphonic and highest gain 12ax7's I have ever heard, not sweet but very accurate and I often use these just to satisfy my own curiosity-but honestly these tubes are awesome ---Bogner amps will only use these in all V positions as BOGNER swears by them!!!!

Hope this helps and to further quote my earlier post to Watersilk re TONE!!!!

I have decided to attach the complete quote instead of the link in order to further understand where tone comes from- Again hope this sheds some light on the subject of tone but remember-In music there is no one single source for the tone someone is looking for as there are too many variables- I personally believe the initial tone comes from the FINGERS!!!

I will post this with Watersilk also!!! Keep in touch

Cheers Mick from OZ :D/

The most important tube in your amp? The Phase inverter!

Many people think that V1 (the first gain stage) is the most important tube in an amp. This is

true in some cases but not in all cases. V1 (usually the preamp tube closest to the input jack)

has the largest impact on your tone and gain but has less impact on your output distortion touch

dynamics and output stage distortion than the phase inverter. The phase inverter is generally

the preamp tube that is the most close to your output tubes in most amps.

Let’s think about this for a moment. Today’s amps come in many “flavors”. There are three

basic amp topologies looking at things from one viewpoint.

• Non Master volume amplifiers

• Master volume amplifiers

• Channel switching amplifiers

In master volume amps we have pre and post phase inverter master volume controls. These

work differently but for this piece of writing I will put them in the same master volume category.

Rolling down the master does what? It allows the front end to be driven harder and thus we

hear our front end distort. At some point we can drive some amps so hard in the front end that

the tone becomes so compressed and distorted that even I can sound like a decent player! Your

mistakes are covered up in the mush and distortion of ti all. This distortion is passed down the

signal chain where it is reproduced and amplified by the output stage of the amp. This has

nothing to do with output stage distortion. This type of distortion is not touch sensitive. This

type of distortion is not something that most articulate players would favor for a sweet tone,

blues tone, or even classic rock tones. This is NOT what people refer to as the “brown sound”.

Channel switching amps. Many of these amps have so much “junk” in the signal path that

hearing tube changes in V1 is a pretty hopeless endeavor. When you do hear a change it is

because the tube is closer to industry spec than another tube may have been. If you want to

hear different great tones from swapping out V1 then listen to the tube under test in a more

classic amp design.

Channel switchers continued. I get calls and letters all the time where people have a “bonzo-3

channel gripmaster Mk III recto” or whatever. Many owners of these amps say: “the owner’s

manual says that V3 is used for the turbo channel” or whatever. Remember, V1 feeds

EVERYTHING else down the line, EVEN IN THESE AMPS. The “turbo channel” generally does not

use JUST V3. The chain is fed by V1. V1, even in multi channel amps is still the most important

tube in the TONE AND GAIN stage of most amps. If you want to change the ratio of preamp

tube distortion to output tube distortion then we change V1 in some cases. Going from a 12AX7

to a 5751 will reduce front end gain. Going down to a 12AY7 will reduce the front end gain

further and generally give one more clean headroom.

Back to the phase inverter. Taking a simple classis non-master volume amp (but this is the

same for master volume amps as well actually).

I will try to keep things simple here with a few basics. If you have questions on all the complex

versions feel free to contact me.

Fender Tolex era amps – These generally used a 12AT7 in the phase inverter.

Marshall type amps – These generally used a 12AX7 in the phase inverter.

There are many other differences in these amps but I will stick to the PI (phase inverter). Some basic tube facts

• 12AX7

o Has a published spec gain of 100

o Has a publishes spec current output of 1.2 milliamps

• 12AT7

o Has a published spec gain of 60-70

o Has a published spec current output of 10.0 milliamps (ten times that of the 12AX7

as a side note)

As a third example, a 5751 has a gain which is almost identical to the 12AT7 but it’s standing

current is 1.0 milliamps (about the same as the 12AX7). But, there is a third factor,

transconductance, to be considered. The 5751 has a transconductance of about 1200. A

12AX7 has a “TC” of about 1600 and a 12AT7 has a TC over 5000. These three tubes act quite

differently. A 5751 and 12AX7 are much more closely related than the 5751 and 12AT7.

We will stick to the basic 12AX7 and 12AT7.

When you push your amp hard it is not as much the output tubes distorting as it is the

phase inverter breaking down and distorting. We are talking output stage distortion here.

We are not talking about how you may have messed up the signal with preamp tube distortion

and compression already. The phase inverter may be the hardest worked tube in most

amps. I cannot begin to count the times when I have found phase inverters that were long past

their service life. When you change your output tubes change that phase inverter. At the least

change it every other output tube change.

Many folks think that when they want to have their amp have more clean headroom they can

insert a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7. Very true. (By the way, the 12AT7 in a first gain stage is

an awful tone generator in a guitar amp. If you want to drop front end gain use a 5751 (gain of

60-70) or a 12AY7 (gain of 40). The 12AY7 was the first gain stage in the classic Fender Tweed

Bassman, Deluxe, etc.

Going from a 12AX7 to a 12AT7 in the PI (phase inverter) will yield a change in output tube

distortion, touch, and output dynamics in most amps. Is this because the gain is lower in the

12AT7? 10% yes perhaps. The lower gain is a factor but the larger factors are:

• We have almost 10 times the current available to drive the output tubes before the phase

inverter starts to break down.

• We have a transconductance of 5500 vs 1600 of the 12AX7. Keeping this simple, it

means it takes a lot less input signal for a given output signal.

The output tubes are less important than many folks may think. Think about this. In the

Hi-Fi world there have been many amplifier designs. Some such as the Scott and Fisher lines

used EL-84 output tubes. McIntosh used 6L6 and 6550 / KT88 tubes. Dynaco and some British

amps used EL-34 tubes. All of these amps, when operated at the rated specs generally stated

that from 20-20,000 cycles at .5% distortion or less they were considered “flat” by industry spec.

The output tube type had very little to do with anything. In guitar amps we purposely push the

output tube beyond their design limits to make them distort. The difference between a Svetlana

6L6 and an RCA 6L6 is the difference in the way the tube sounds when it is pushed beyond it’s

design limits. Being in the “tube business” this is not a great subject. What I am basically

saying here is: Before you go to a pricy output set of tubes and a possible need to rebias the

amp think about a simple phase inverter change. There are no amp adjustments necessary when

you change the phase inverter. In real life we rarely get to the point of pushing our output tubes to their limits. Our front end is

going into distortion. Our phase inverter is breaking down too. The ratio of this front end

distortion to phase inverter drive and breakdown is determined by amplifier design topology. You

cannot make a Marshall into a Fender no matter how many people tell you that this can be done.

Putting 6L6 tubes in a Marshall will NOT make it sound like a Fender either.

There are many 12AX7 types of tubes available. They are all different even though they are

supposed to have the same specs. Even when one looks at the same tube type from the same

maker out of the same production run we find HUGE variances. +/- 50% off spec is common.

Most 12AX7s today show a current output of 0.6-0.8 milliamps where 1.2 milliamps is expected.

You throw a 12AX7 in your PI slot with a 0.8mA output and you are 30% down on what the amp

can do right off the bat. Your amp is not as full, tight, responsive, or just plain “powerful” or

dynamic. Many of today’s high production amps use the Sovtek 12AX7WA short plate as a

generic 12AX7. I have issues with these in the tone and gain stage but staying with the topic of

phase inverters, these are just awful (12AX7WA Sovtek) for the most part. In tests these show

very low standing current. The Ei long smooth plate also shows low standing current, even

though a long plate. Generally, large plate tubes will show higher standing current but this is not

always the case. The JJ ECC83S has the highest standing current of any current production

tube. The JJ is a short plate tube. The JJ is an exception. You might think the JJ would be a

good PI. Not from my personal taste. The way the JJ breaks down is not as musical to my ear

in most amps and I do not care for the touch response and dynamics of the tube in the PI position

in most amps. What do I like? I like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS and the GT 12AX7M. The GT

12AX7M is also available as a matched phase inverter from the SAG over at GT as the SAG-AX7-

MPI. There is also an SAG-AT7-MPI. I have talked about matched phase inverters in other

places prior to this piece of writing. The 12AX7M and 12AX7R2 (Sovtek 12AX7LPS) are both long

plate designs. In either case I check these for specs because in all cases there is a wide range of

variables from tube to tube and run to run in production.

There are a lot of great NOS tubes. They have advantages in the tone and gain stage but they

are not as available as production tubes made today. When you are on the road or on tour these

are harder to find. In the case of the phase inverter we do not want to stock a bunch of Mullards

or Telefunkens to burn up every output tube set change. There are great current production

tubes that give us all we can ask for.

Other great phase inverters to consider are the 5751, 12AY7, and 12AU7.

The bottom line here is simple. The phase inverter is one of the most important tubes in your

amp and the hardest worked tube in the preamp section of your amp. It is how this tube breaks

down that provides your output stage distortion tone, character, and amp feel.

Myles S. Rose

www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com

www.groovetubes.com

[Michael. L.]

Hey Stein, Watersilk,

Forgot to mention that most of the time I'll run a BBE Sonic Stomp box at the end of my chain, or with the Marshall 100 watt plexi -it has an effects loop-with this amp I'll run the BBE via this-

This pedal makes an incredible amount of change to my tone and cleans up all the little nuances in sound that have resulted along the way, check out the reviews-may be of interest to you-

I have used many guitar cables along the way and have resorted to using only DiMarzio cables now-

I know that there are more expensive cables out there and for years I combated with Monster but have repeatedly come back to DiMarzio-

Can't say why, they sound better to me-more sparkle-in fact much more sparkle especially in the highs

Hope this helps

But remember at the end of the day it's all personal

Cheers, Mick from OZ!!!

[Michael. L.]

Hey Stein, Watersilk,

Forgot to mention that most of the time I'll run a BBE Sonic Stomp box at the end of my chain, or with the Marshall 100 watt plexi -it has an effects loop-with this amp I'll run the BBE via this-

This pedal makes an incredible amount of change to my tone and cleans up all the little nuances in sound that have resulted along the way, check out the reviews-may be of interest to you-

I have used many guitar cables along the way and have resorted to using only DiMarzio cables now-

I know that there are more expensive cables out there and for years I combated with Monster but have repeatedly come back to DiMarzio-

Can't say why, they sound better to me-more sparkle-in fact much more sparkle especially in the highs

Hope this helps

But remember at the end of the day it's all personal

Cheers, Mick from OZ!!!

[Watersilk]

My personal favorites are the Victoria amps. For a hand built amp, they are actually quite good for the money. I am not sure how available they are to you, but if you get a chance to find a dealer that has some, It would be worth your while to get there.

 

Around here, I have to say that not many are too intimate with the hand wired fenders, but that is mainly because we have a victoria dealer and that is what everyone seems to go for. (It doesn't meant the fenders are not good or worse). But as for the cheaper cuircuit baord fenders, like the blues series or the reissues, all mostly agree that they do not sound pleasant or anything like the origionals at higher volumes.

 

I think my personal favorite would be the victoriette with el-84 tubes. I also really like the regal, but I am not sure if it really does the break up thing as well, but for that overdriven clean type of thing, it might be my fave. I actually ended up not getting the victoriette because I was concerned that it wouldn't be loud enough for gigging, and ended up with a victorilux, which I ended up taking to of the el-84's out anyway, and put in a '51 jensen, so it is back to about 15-18 watts.

 

Hi Stein,

 

I had looked at the Victoria website some time ago. Rather than just copying Fender amps, they could actually be making them better, because compared to Fender, they are small and have to prove themselves. I would rather buy the 518 or 5112 than Fender's own reissue of the Champ..... they are most probably the same price anyway. Some of their amps look like Gibson's, are they? Which amp is the Victoriette modelled after? Is it also based upon a Fender?

 

Everything I have read about PCB's leads me to believe that it's best to avoid them, and the simpler the wiring, the shorter the signal paths, the better the tone is. If I'm going to get my '59 LP's electrics sorted out, it makes sense to chose an amp which is also built well, and 'perhaps' that means without PCB's. However, Micheal.L has written that PCB's give "stability and consistency" so perhaps this subject is a complex one.

 

Cheers!

[Watersilk]

Wow. You sure about this?

 

There is nothing wrong with getting a good sound the way you are, or using gear that you have in that fashion, and I would not knock it. However, You seem to have some opinions about the other way of doing things and using an amp that I don't think is acurrate.

 

For one, you mention botique amps as being inherently less tempermental. There are a lot of point to point or hand wired amps that are, but these are not usually considered "botique". Most amps that are considered botique have exactly the opposite reputations as far as being tempermental. But really, not all. It isn't a rule by any means, but certainly not a rule that they are less reliable. AS for actual experience on my part and those I know and have witnessed, the bassman reissue has the most problems when it comes to breaking down or working consistantly, compared to the victoria's and actual vintage amps that are serviced.

 

As for the preamp tubes making the most difference as opposed to power tubes, that is more a case to case thing but far more often than not, the power tubes make more of a drastic difference in tone, especially when the amp is being overdriven on the power section. This is more so personal experience as much as what I have observed in other poeples amps, but it seems to be the same results. I can also recall working on a freinds bassman reissue and replacing the power tubes with rca's made by far the biggest improvement compared to the other tube changes.

 

But this brings me to the real subject at hand; the way you are using the amps I am assuming is as a power amp and using pedals and the preamp stage to get the desired tone. This is a very valed way to get sound and many poeple do this with good results, and many records recorded this way even. But it is also a completely different thing than using the power amp distortion or getting tone that way, and a completely different camp. The recordings he mentioned were recorded this way. The examples he used to describe the tone he was after are this way.

 

I hope this is not taken wrong. Sometimes word of mouth and experience are not really the same thing, and we sometimes get different ideas as a result. For example, I have only read about what Gibbens used for those recordings and Gary Moore's, and then use my own experience as to what amps I have had or used. It's good to be clear, I can't learn anything if I assume.

 

I would be interested in what preamp tubes you have had good results with. I haven't tried any new ones for about 5 years, and my supply is gone. I'm going to need some new ones here pretty quick.

 

Hi Stein/ Mick,

 

Just to clarify one thing. The way I understand, and I could well be wrong, is that a handwired amp is an amp where the components are joined directly, without PCB's and ...... soldered by hand. Boutique amps, are not copies of a classic amp (whether handwired or not), but variations upon a theme, for example, the VOX AC30, the normal model has PCB's, then there is a handwired model with the fawn covering, and Framus make an amp which, while clearly based upon the AC30, has many differences, like for example, two different unmatched speakers........ which is surely a boutique amp... ??? Am I on the right track here?

 

One other thing that intrigues me. Are Fender type amps better for single coil pickups, while Vox's and Marshall's are better for humbuckers? Hendrix mainly used a strat, but at that time, Marshall amps were most probably fairly close to a Fender in design. I noticed that Victoria have two inputs on some of their amps, one for single coil, and one for humbuckers..... meaning that it must make a difference of some kind, one that can perhaps be rectified at the input stage....??

 

Gibbons has used Marshalls for a while, perhaps Fenders in the beginning, do you know what Peter Green used?

[stein]

PCB's; I guess there is controversy, but it really is a deeper subject than just one being better than the other. All Marshalls from the period of about '75 use pcb's, as does Soldano. Kendrik uses a pcb on his most expensive amp, for the advantages of it and it is actually much more expensive as a result.

 

Then there is the matter of using pcb's in such amps as fender's cheaper reissues and the blues series where it is to cut cost, as well as a lot of more mass produced amps like Peavey and Epiphone. In these amps the pcb has more of a detrimental effect.

 

One can't really just say one way is better without considering the way it is used and how it is built. I think it would be fair to say that the advantages gained by using pcb's the way Marshall and Soldano use them does not apply to the newer Fenders and the disadvantages of using them in cheaper amps do not apply to the higher quality ones.

 

It is easier to view it by considering that if it is a reissue and it is using a pcb, it is probably there to cut corners in design and manufacture, and is probably not going to be much like the origional. While the same may apply to a cheaper amp that is not a copy or reissue, I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of hand wired amps of cheaper manufacture that sound really bad to me.