GonzoJohn Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Hey all, I'm a little concerned as I just purchased an E-335 from eBay. As soon as I got it, I rushed it to a Guitar Center where a tech could look at it. He said the neck has a slight twist on the bass (low E) side, but isn't a major issue as he's seen many like it. He also said the truss rod was getting a little tight, but was able to set it up. Aside from that, he believes it to be a nice guitar. The guitar has never been played, but I don't believe the warranty is valid (should I need it) because the guy I bought it from is not a dealer. The weather here is also very cold (Minneapolis), so the guitar may need to settle for a few days. But I'd like to get your opinion none-the-less. I know that Gibson's quality control is questionable at best, but is this normal? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Hey all, I'm a little concerned as I just purchased an E-335 from eBay. As soon as I got it, I rushed it to a Guitar Center where a tech could look at it. He said the neck has a slight twist on the bass (low E) side, but isn't a major issue as he's seen many like it. He also said the truss rod was getting a little tight, but was able to set it up. Aside from that, he believes it to be a nice guitar. The guitar has never been played, but I don't believe the warranty is valid (should I need it) because the guy I bought it from is not a dealer. The weather here is also very cold (Minneapolis), so the guitar may need to settle for a few days. But I'd like to get your opinion none-the-less. I know that Gibson's quality control is questionable at best, but is this normal? Thanks! Who can say without being able to examine the guitar or see pictures of the alleged problem? [FWIW: I have never heard of a truss rod "getting tight". They either work, or they don't, and when they are over-tightened, they can cause problems like compound curvature of the neck, which could conceivably express itself as torquing or twisting of the neck. As a side note: often, when I get a new guitar that I don't feel is responding correctly to a truss rod "tweak", I'll loosen the strings, back the truss rod nut off so there is no tension at all on the neck, and then reload the neck gradually by tightening the strings and then the truss rod in small increments. I have never had a neck that failed to respond favorably to this procedure.] J/W B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Great! Thanks for the feedback JellyWheat. I've read on other sites that a minor neck twist can often occur with string tension and other factors. The guitar tech didn't feel it was a very big deal. And the guitar did just get here from across the country and had been in the cold for a while. So, it may take a few days for the wood to settle. What has my undies in a bunch over this is that I'm used to perfection. I'm selling a PRS to get the E-335. They are works of art and the quality is out of this world. I just didn't care for the sound of the pick-ups unfortunately. I guess I'll have to get used to Gibson quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Great! Thanks for the feedback JellyWheat. I've read on other sites that a minor neck twist can often occur with string tension and other factors. The guitar tech didn't feel it was a very big deal. And the guitar did just get here from across the country and had been in the cold for a while. So, it may take a few days for the wood to settle. What has my undies in a bunch over this is that I'm used to perfection. I'm selling a PRS to get the E-335. They are works of art and the quality is out of this world. I just didn't care for the sound of the pick-ups unfortunately. I guess I'll have to get used to Gibson quality. I often get annoyed at some of the things that go on, but nothing has a living soul like a Gibson guitar, IMO (and I'm really a Fender guy, deep down!). J/W B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes, this is normal for Gibson, but not normal on a quality guitar. To me, a twisted neck is unacceptable. The first ES-335 I bought from GC had a twisted neck. I could not set the action as low as I wanted it, plus the neck kept moving. I had a friend and excellent tech look at it, and he recommended taking advantage of GC's return policy. I exchanged it for another 335. The neck binding was uneven on that one, so I exchanged it again for the 335 I have now which I am very happy with. I'm not happy with Gibson, but I love their guitars when I get a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yes, this is normal for Gibson, but not normal on a quality guitar. To me, a twisted neck is unacceptable. The first ES-335 I bought from GC had a twisted neck. I could not set the action as low as I wanted it, plus the neck kept moving. I had a friend and excellent tech look at it, and he recommended taking advantage of GC's return policy. I exchanged it for another 335. The neck binding was uneven on that one, so I exchanged it again for the 335 I have now which I am very happy with. I'm not happy with Gibson, but I love their guitars when I get a good one. Yeah that's a real bummer. I can't return the guitar because I bought it from eBay and not from an authorized dealer. I got it back from GC the other day. I can't tell that there's any neck twist, the action is pretty low, and there's no buzz what-so-ever. It looks like I'll probably be alright. At least I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yeah that's a real bummer. I can't return the guitar because I bought it from eBay and not from an authorized dealer. I got it back from GC the other day. I can't tell that there's any neck twist, the action is pretty low, and there's no buzz what-so-ever. It looks like I'll probably be alright. At least I hope so. One way to tell if there is neck twisting is that the neck binding that covers the fret ends will not be lined up with fret ends. That is a sure sign. Also, if there is more neck relief on one side than another. The salesman at GC told me that unbalanced neck relief was normal and actually preferred on the bass strings because there is a greater string clearance required on the bass side. That may be true, but IMO, it is never good to have a twisted neck. String clearance can be handled at the bridge or saddles once the neck relief, achieved with a truss rod adjustment, is set. Between GC salesmen and Gibson slackness, an uneducated customer doesn't stand a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 . Some players like 'em twisted - http://littleguitarworks.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 That is truly twisted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Those are really nice looking. Although, I have enough problems playing a guitar that is NOT twisted. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The whole "twisted neck" terminology is often vague. There sometimes are twists in necks, but more often its just a matter of the fingerboard having less relief on the bass side than the treble side. Thats not good , but doesn't prevent a set up and is not a twisted neck. Its preferable to have more relief on the bass side. Thats how custom builders often adjust and plane the fingerboards on acoustic and classical guitars. Basses especially like a graduated relief from treble to bass. That said some players prefer a fingerboard with equal amount or relief or camber from the first to sixth string. Factories as a rule aim for equal relief because thats what their method will allow them to achieve with predictable results. It is possible to have to adjust a truss rod to the limit of the thread , essentially be at the limits of its ability to correct forward bow. Thats another matter entirely. If your neck will not adjust to at least 0% relief you likely need a heat treatment or a refret or both. Heat treatments are effective and permanent but require a highly skilled tech. to carry out . Gibson guitars react very positively to heat treatments and a heat treatment is often part of a routine refret/pull and plane on a Gibson. There are many reasons for imperfections in the playing surface of the fingerboard. All those imperfections are correctable. Just a matter of time and money. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The whole "twisted neck" terminology is often vague. There sometimes are twists in necks, but more often its just a matter of the fingerboard having less relief on the bass side than the treble side. Thats not good , but doesn't prevent a set up and is not a twisted neck. Its preferable to have more relief on the bass side. Thats how custom builders often adjust and plane the fingerboards on acoustic and classical guitars. Basses especially like a graduated relief from treble to bass. That said some players prefer a fingerboard with equal amount or relief or camber from the first to sixth string. Factories as a rule aim for equal relief because thats what their method will allow them to achieve with predictable results. It is possible to have to adjust a truss rod to the limit of the thread , essentially be at the limits of its ability to correct forward bow. Thats another matter entirely. If your neck will not adjust to at least 0% relief you likely need a heat treatment or a refret or both. Heat treatments are effective and permanent but require a highly skilled tech. to carry out . Gibson guitars react very positively to heat treatments and a heat treatment is often part of a routine refret/pull and plane on a Gibson. There are many reasons for imperfections in the playing surface of the fingerboard. All those imperfections are correctable. Just a matter of time and money. Good luck. Great explanation, Al! Thank you. J/W B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 The whole "twisted neck" terminology is often vague. There sometimes are twists in necks, but more often its just a matter of the fingerboard having less relief on the bass side than the treble side. Thats not good , but doesn't prevent a set up and is not a twisted neck. Its preferable to have more relief on the bass side. Thats how custom builders often adjust and plane the fingerboards on acoustic and classical guitars. Basses especially like a graduated relief from treble to bass. That said some players prefer a fingerboard with equal amount or relief or camber from the first to sixth string. Factories as a rule aim for equal relief because thats what their method will allow them to achieve with predictable results. It is possible to have to adjust a truss rod to the limit of the thread , essentially be at the limits of its ability to correct forward bow. Thats another matter entirely. If your neck will not adjust to at least 0% relief you likely need a heat treatment or a refret or both. Heat treatments are effective and permanent but require a highly skilled tech. to carry out . Gibson guitars react very positively to heat treatments and a heat treatment is often part of a routine refret/pull and plane on a Gibson. There are many reasons for imperfections in the playing surface of the fingerboard. All those imperfections are correctable. Just a matter of time and money. Good luck. Thanks for the explanation Al. I'm a little bummed out because I did buy this guitar from eBay. I plopped down 2100 on a non-refundable guitar with no Gibson warranty. I genuinely thought I was getting a good deal on an otherwise new and unplayed guitar. But I'm slowly learning that doesn't mean much. I really don't know if I have the option of getting my money back from the seller. For one, he was honest in his description, and there's no way he'd have known about a twist in the neck. Secondly, he stated that he'd not accept refunds. There is an eBay Buyer Protection plan, but I don't think it covers things that the guitar manufacturer overlooked. As I mentioned, I cannot tell that this thing is twisted, and I only got the opinion of one tech. It plays fine and there's no buzz in the frets. I may never have to worry about it. If I do, hopefully it's a couple years down the road at least. I don't know about heat treatment and a re-fretting on a Memphis built E-335 Dot. It just doesn't seem worth it to me. It's like one step up from the satin finish model which I believe is their low end. But to me, 2100 is expensive... The last thing I want to do is pour another 1k into it to fix the neck. Here's hoping for a longevity! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks for the explanation Al. I'm a little bummed out because I did buy this guitar from eBay. I plopped down 2100 on a non-refundable guitar with no Gibson warranty. I genuinely thought I was getting a good deal on an otherwise new and unplayed guitar. But I'm slowly learning that doesn't mean much. I really don't know if I have the option of getting my money back from the seller. For one, he was honest in his description, and there's no way he'd have known about a twist in the neck. Secondly, he stated that he'd not accept refunds. There is an eBay Buyer Protection plan, but I don't think it covers things that the guitar manufacturer overlooked. As I mentioned, I cannot tell that this thing is twisted, and I only got the opinion of one tech. It plays fine and there's no buzz in the frets. I may never have to worry about it. If I do, hopefully it's a couple years down the road at least. I don't know about heat treatment and a re-fretting on a Memphis built E-335 Dot. It just doesn't seem worth it to me. It's like one step up from the satin finish model which I believe is their low end. But to me, 2100 is expensive... The last thing I want to do is pour another 1k into it to fix the neck. Here's hoping for a longevity! :) Keep it if you like it. Don't know the experience level of your "tech". A heat treatment for the rod and a refret is not a 1k fix more like around 550USD , with expert results. FWIW I just bought a 14 year old essentially NOS Gibson on ebay. It needed a heat treatment and now works fine. When it needs its next Grind and Polish I'll refret it so the board can be trued. If your guitar has a fresh set of frets, in other words , still has high frets, you can do a heat treatment and a grind and polish. Thats about 225USD , or there a'bouts. That will last you for years and years. Finally if you wear the frets off the thing you can do the pull and plane. If you feel "burnt" contact the seller, I've had great luck with sellers on ebay . Attempt to communicate your concerns. You may be pleasantly surprised 2100 bucks ain't chicken feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Keep it if you like it. Don't know the experience level of your "tech". A heat treatment for the rod and a refret is not a 1k fix more like around 550USD , with expert results. FWIW I just bought a 14 year old essentially NOS Gibson on ebay. It needed a heat treatment and now works fine. When it needs its next Grind and Polish I'll refret it so the board can be trued. If your guitar has a fresh set of frets, in other words , still has high frets, you can do a heat treatment and a grind and polish. Thats about 225USD , or there a'bouts. That will last you for years and years. Finally if you wear the frets off the thing you can do the pull and plane. If you feel "burnt" contact the seller, I've had great luck with sellers on ebay . Attempt to communicate your concerns. You may be pleasantly surprised 2100 bucks ain't chicken feed. Thanks Al. That makes me feel a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat-o-steve Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Many guitars will develop this twist over time, and more so if it is strung with heavy gauge strings. Leaving the guitar in a very warm location, like a hot car, can aid is twisting the neck due to the heat can soften the glue joint between the fretboard and neck woods, allowing string tension to pull a twist or a warp into the neck that "sets" when the glue cools and re-hardens. Sometimes it just happens due to the particular piece of wood used due to humidity issues. In any case, a slight twist, or more relief on the bass side of the neck, is nothing to worry about. Your guitar will set up and play just fine. If it is very minor, you can have the frets leveled ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoJohn Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Hey folks, I ended up sending the guitar back to the seller. I took it to Madison Luthiers here in the Minneapolis area, which is the place all local GC techs are employed through. I had two more guys look at it. They stated there was a neck pop starting around where the neck meets the body--that blocky joint area. It looked bowed when tilting it to the side, and prevented the notes from ringing. They weren't able to get the relief out of the neck and could no longer move the truss rod. So I sent a note to the seller and he has gracious enough to work with me assuming he refunds my money. I already sent the guitar back to Amazon on his behalf and am waiting for him to refund my money the minute they get it. On a side note, and not a moment too soon, I ordered a brand spanking new ebony ES-335 from GC. Why not get color I really want right? I won't be taking any more chances purchasing through eBay. It's just too risky IMO. Plus I got 10% off, which is quite a bit of money when you're talking $2700 dollars. :) Hopefully I won't have to tell GC to send this next one back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 . Best of luck to you with the return situation and the new purchase. . B) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Good move. I'd also recommend you take your new guitar back to the same luthiers as soon as it comes in and get them to do a set-up. They can usually spot defects right away that might take you much longer to find, and you'll get a professional set-up. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincentw Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Indeed, there needs to be more relief on the bass side than treble and this is intentional. This doesn't mean necks don't twist or distort over time or in heat. While buyers, shop owners and repair people often sight necks and notice an asymmetry that might be misconstrued as twist, the PLEK algorithm is built with this and is the result of careful study both theoretical and from real world testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watsky Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Indeed, there needs to be more relief on the bass side than treble and this is intentional. This doesn't mean necks don't twist or distort over time or in heat. While buyers, shop owners and repair people often sight necks and notice an asymmetry that might be misconstrued as twist, the PLEK algorithm is built with this and is the result of careful study both theoretical and from real world testing. Lots of folks do not know what they are looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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