KungPaoDog Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi all. I just got a new Dot and I need some help with the set up. I'm new to guitars but I've been playing electric bass for 15 years, and I've done the set up on all six of my basses. They play well and have no problems sounding in tune. I also have a Fender acoustic guitar that sounds good with all chords. The big problem is that some chords, especially D and F, sound really sour on my Dot. I set the intonation on my Dot to sound the exact same note at the 12th fret and the harmonic over the 12th fret. Very slight up-bow in the neck. The action is pretty low; much lower and I get fret buzz if strumming hard. The one thing I haven't done is measure the depth of the slots in the nut, but they seem to be reasonable to the eye. I'm very open to the possibility that I am doing something wrong such as poor technique or wrong set-up. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated before I pay the shop to do a set-up. I know I can do this my self! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 KPD, Welcome to the forum....pics a must. What is your neck relief actually set at? How old are the strings and what gauge? Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungPaoDog Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 KPD, Welcome to the forum....pics a must. What is your neck relief actually set at? How old are the strings and what gauge? Willy Yeah, I know it doesn't exist without pics Strings are a new set of Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys (10s). Neck relief is about 0.012" measured with feeler gauges at the 7th fret while holding down 1st fret with a capo and the last fret by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuWa Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Your setup sounds spot on. Does the dot have tall frets? If so you may be pressing down with different pressure with your fingers, putting one or two of the strings out of tune with the others. (I know, because I have the tendency to do this all of the time. I have to make a conscious effort to not press the strings out of tune). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueman335 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Everyone should have a good book on do-it-yourself set ups. The one many guys use is Dan Erlewine's 'How to make your electric guitar play great' at StewMac. You can do a lot yourself, without special tools. Odds are you don't need a fret leveling or anything comlicated. Get that book, make some adjustments on your guitar, and then see if your problems disappear (odds are they will). You don't want to pay people to do things you can easily do yourself. Just pay them for highly skilled work. Once I got that book, I've done my own set ups on dozens of guitars. They feel just like I want them to. Know your instrument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 KPD, Well, you seemed to have sparked some interest and some very good advise. Personally, I'd be going with taking a very good look at my nut slot depths. (Is that pornographic?) And yes.... What are you using to tune with? Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 the chords are rattling / buzzing, or actually sound off tonally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungPaoDog Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 To answer a few questions at once: I have a Korg electronic tuner that is decent (better than the other 4 digital tuning options I have) and I think I have a pretty good ear. The 12th fret and 12th harmonic are quite in tune. The fret size isn't specified on the Epiphone site, but I found one review that calls them medium. I think the nut slot depth is OK since if I fret at the 3rd fret there is still a small bit of clearance over the 1st fret. To clarify: F and D chords sound a bit out of tune, not fret buzzing; maybe I'm not fretting with consistent pressure, but I think it may be in the set up. Help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuWa Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 To answer a few questions at once: I have a Korg electronic tuner that is decent (better than the other 4 digital tuning options I have) and I think I have a pretty good ear. The 12th fret and 12th harmonic are quite in tune. The fret size isn't specified on the Epiphone site, but I found one review that calls them medium. I think the nut slot depth is OK since if I fret at the 3rd fret there is still a small bit of clearance over the 1st fret. To clarify: F and D chords sound a bit out of tune, not fret buzzing; maybe I'm not fretting with consistent pressure, but I think it may be in the set up. Help? As you have probably experienced before, guitars use an imperfect tuning system that failed to take into account the fret height back in the day when all the measurements were taken. Buzz Feiten worked to fix this with his tuning system that moves the nut to "temper" the tuning so chords like D play in tune. The G string is particularly a problem. Intonating the bridge only helps your guitar stay in tune as you work your way up the fretboard. I think your problem is that you have an exceptional ear and the built-in weaknesses of modern guitar tuning sounds bad to you! I really think if you work on your fingering hand technique you can remedy this adequately, unless the frets were put on your guitar wrong or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungPaoDog Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 A few things: - Use an electronic tuner for intonation - Check neck relief at the 7th fret with the strings depressed at the 1st and at the fret where the neck joins the body - Nut height can be checked with the strings depressed between frets 2 & 3. There should be a hair of clearance between the strings and the first fret, .010-.012". If any are touching, it's too low. And read this - you might want to try a wound G string (I do): http://images.onstagemag.com/files/46/0202Setuptxt.html That link has a cool method at the bottom of the page about using different harmonics than the 12th fret. Very cool method. Thanks for that, and I suggest other read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Buzz Feiten worked to fix this with his tuning system that moves the nut to "temper" the tuning so chords like D play in tune. Earvana nuts work on a similar principle as the Buzz Feiten method. I've never found a need for them but, I've known some people that swear by them. Take a look and see. Earvana compensated nuts: http://earvana.com/products.htm Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueman335 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 As you have probably experienced before, guitars use an imperfect tuning system that failed to take into account the fret height back in the day when all the measurements were taken. Buzz Feiten worked to fix this with his tuning system that moves the nut to "temper" the tuning so chords like D play in tune. The G string is particularly a problem. Intonating the bridge only helps your guitar stay in tune as you work your way up the fretboard. I think your problem is that you have an exceptional ear and the built-in weaknesses of modern guitar tuning sounds bad to you! +1. Check out the site for 'true temper' necks, they'll show what frets should look like (not straight), and tell you the best way to tune, which I bet is different than the vast majority of guys here. The current system of straight frets is a compromise for each string, and actually changes with string gauge. We're so used to hearing guitars out of tune, we've come to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 True temper, earvana nuts, compromises... all that comes after you deal with the most common cause of your problem - the nut height. If the neck is very close to flat and the nut slots are as low as possible, then delve into the rest of it, but not until then. There should be almost no space under the first fret when you fret the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 There should never be any space under any fret. Ever! Right you are, edit; no space under the string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungPaoDog Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 A-ha! I think I may need to get some nut slot files and lower the nut slots a wee bit. I'll have to verify with my calipers, but my feeler gauges say that my string height is around 0.060" at the nut. What is the recommended height for the strings at the nut, and what are some reasonably priced tools to do the job right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymeedc Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 As you have probably experienced before, guitars use an imperfect tuning system that failed to take into account the fret height back in the day when all the measurements were taken. Buzz Feiten worked to fix this with his tuning system that moves the nut to "temper" the tuning so chords like D play in tune. The G string is particularly a problem. Intonating the bridge only helps your guitar stay in tune as you work your way up the fretboard. I think your problem is that you have an exceptional ear and the built-in weaknesses of modern guitar tuning sounds bad to you! I really think if you work on your fingering hand technique you can remedy this adequately, unless the frets were put on your guitar wrong or something. As someone who depends a good deal on open chords, I too am sensitive to this problem. I tune up my guitar with a Snark, & then fine tune the lighter strings by ear, if necessary, while fingering an open D chord..... works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilm3 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Slot depth is not measured at the nut, so the .06" is not an useful measure, unless you factor in the height of the fret. You want to measure from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string with feeler gauges. I have mine set at .010" on the E-B-G strings and from .015" to .020" on the wound D-A-E strings. Sneak up on filing the nut slot, retuning and checking constantly. Slot depth at the nut is the single most effective way to correct intonation at the top frets for the unwound strings. Also essential to get proper fretboard action. You will maybe have to tweak the neck relief and intonation as you go along. Take your time. No distractions. Take notes. Worst that could happen is you go too deep and will have to make a new nut, or take it to a luthier to make one for you. In the process, you'll gain experience. You do have proper nut files and feeler gauges, so off to a good start. The calipers are not going to help much with this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungPaoDog Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Moishe- That sounds like an easy (-ish) way to approach this with no special tools. Hilm3- that makes sense. To clarify: 0.010 to 0.015 measured between the string and first fret is variable depending on bridge height due to playing preference, neck bow, and should this be done while fretting a string somewhere on the neck? Either way I am still at two to three times your suggested height. Thanks for all the help from everyone! Right now my plan is to: 1. knock out the nut with a soft block of wood 2. sand the backside ~0.015" (difference between current string height and desired string height, to be double-checked) 3. buy a new nut after screwing up this one 3.1 repeat until desired string height is achieved 4. Use superglue to hold new nut in place Is that about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwalin Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I am also guilty of fretting unevenly, especially when rocking out!! I love really low action at the nut, you barely need any pressure to fret the note and I am usually guilty of bending strings out of pitch in a chord at the first position. I switched to 11's for this reason. If your action is low enough, they are not hard to play at all. Tougher to bend, but just give it a while and you will build the strength/techniqe to do it. As far as the harmonic/fretted note at the 12th....technically they should not be exactly the same because you are increasing tension on the string when you fret it. Better is to actually fret any notes when doing intonation, and compare them to the open string and the harmonics. A very accurate tuner with a needle is best (or a strobe, if you have it). Also, pay attention where you fret the note. If you do it halfway between the frets (in the center of any two frets), it requires more pressure to avoid buzz, and you are more likely to bend it sharp. If you fret actually 'on' the fret (or just slightly behind it) it requires much less pressure to avoid buzz, and there is much less chance of bending it sharp. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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